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  #41  
Old July 7th 17, 03:43 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default Handlebar rotation

On 2017-07-06 20:00, sms wrote:
On 7/6/17 12:14 PM, Joerg wrote:

snip

I have never been hit from behind either but the number of close calls
has noticeably decreased since I have bright rear lights. Mission
accomplished. The best is, this was never very expensive to accomplish.

Now you can stick the head in the sand again and pretend it ain't so :-)


Just because something didn't happen to you even though you decided not
to take advantage of available safety measures, doesn't mean much.

Of course it would be equally ludicrous to claim that if you were hit,
and didn't have that safety measure, that you would necessarily have
been okay had you had the safety measure.

What most of us have found is that using adequate lighting causes a
change in behavior of motor vehicles because the cyclists is much more
visible. You have fewer close calls. You have fewer vehicles turning
left in front of you as you approach a traffic light, and fewer vehicles
exiting parking lots or driveways in your path because they can see you.


Exactly. That's what I am saying all the time. I also had less vehicles
pull out of parking lots or side roads right in front of me. On the
contrary, some must have thought a motorcycle is coming and hit the
brakes while there was plenty of time to pull out.


At some point it's necessary to use common sense.


Try to tell Frank :-)

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Ads
  #42  
Old July 7th 17, 03:49 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,345
Default Handlebar rotation

On Friday, July 7, 2017 at 7:25:53 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-06 19:34, wrote:
On Thursday, July 6, 2017 at 1:02:53 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-06 12:40, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/6/2017 3:14 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-06 12:05, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/6/2017 10:54 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-05 17:49, John B. wrote:

Yet people have been riding long distances on bicycles
for years and years. The first Paris - Brest - Paris
randonnée was held in 1891. An essentially non-stop
bicycle ride of 1,200 km. The British, of course, do it
better with the 1433 km London Edinburgh London 2017 and
the 'mericans have the Boston-Montreal-Boston, again a
1,200 km ride but no longer an official randonnée and now
strictly a permanent that anyone could ride on their own
in a self-supported manner while still receiving
recognition (validation) from Randonneurs USA.

Think of it, 126 years of successful long distance
bicycle riding without Joerg built lights.


It's simple. Most humans have a habit of accepting current
state-of-the-art as "that's as good as it gets". I don't,
and I derive most of my income from not thinking that way.
And yes, I already had bicycles with real electrical
systems when I was a teenager.

The detail you're missing is that people have always ridden
_successfully_ without the systems you deem necessary.


As I said, people got used to that this is all they are going
to get. Just like people get used to walking in worn shoes if
they can't afford new ones.


There are always people who are into overkill. Some of those
will claim or pretend that their favorite overkill item is
actually a necessity. But that's disproven by every person
who does well without the overkill item.


A vehicle where the light does not go out or dim way down is
IMO not overkill. The lighting "system" bicyles have would
never pass muster at type certification for motor vehicles.
There are good reasons why not.


For just one example: I'm just back from another club ride.
About 15 people were on the ride. Two of them had the newly
fashionable daytime rear blinkies. This particular ride has
occurred once per week every week except in winter for, oh,
perhaps ten years. Nobody has ever been hit by a car,
despite the thousands of person-miles ridden (GASP!) without
blinkies.


I have never been hit from behind either but the number of
close calls has noticeably decreased since I have bright rear
lights. Mission accomplished. The best is, this was never very
expensive to accomplish.

Now you can stick the head in the sand again and pretend it
ain't so :-)

We've been over this multiple times, but:

If your number of close calls for hits-from-behind has gone way
down, it must have been pretty high to begin with. By contrast,
I almost never experience such a close call; therefore I'd never
be able to see a big reduction.

Why don't those close calls happen to me? Because those close
calls are almost always due in part to rider error -
specifically, inviting close passes by riding too far to the
right.


Yeah, right. The woman who rode in the lane on Blue Ravine died
because of that. The other woman in the pickup truck who was drunk
tried to evade but the lane was now too narrow and *BAM*


Well, Frank is right. Bicycles offer a far smaller target and if you
wear bright clothing so that you don't catch drivers unaware you're
pretty safe.


AFAIR she had a bright jersey on.


Unless you ride in an area and at times drunk drivers are on the
road.


Not just those, also texting ones and more recently stoned drivers.

I found that lights are far better than any neon-colored jersey. Someone
with 1/2 watt LEDs that do a police cruiser spiel like mine can be seen
from half a mile away and gets the attention. End of this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI3iZ-Ch7pY


The lights on the GoPro camera are similar to that. And looking at the video you can plainly see that the lights make no difference whatsoever. Many of the members of the group I would ride with if I was feeling OK have those cameras and we get their postings often enough and in every case you can see that that they consider "close passes" are done on purpose.
  #43  
Old July 7th 17, 03:51 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,345
Default Handlebar rotation

On Friday, July 7, 2017 at 7:33:53 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-06 20:11, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 06 Jul 2017 13:02:57 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-07-06 12:40, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/6/2017 3:14 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-06 12:05, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/6/2017 10:54 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-05 17:49, John B. wrote:

Yet people have been riding long distances on bicycles for years and
years. The first Paris - Brest - Paris randonnée was held in 1891. An
essentially non-stop bicycle ride of 1,200 km. The British, of course,
do it better with the 1433 km London Edinburgh London 2017 and the
'mericans have the Boston-Montreal-Boston, again a 1,200 km ride but
no longer an official randonnée and now strictly a permanent that
anyone could ride on their own in a self-supported manner while still
receiving recognition (validation) from Randonneurs USA.

Think of it, 126 years of successful long distance bicycle riding
without Joerg built lights.


It's simple. Most humans have a habit of accepting current
state-of-the-art as "that's as good as it gets". I don't, and I derive
most of my income from not thinking that way. And yes, I already had
bicycles with real electrical systems when I was a teenager.

The detail you're missing is that people have always ridden
_successfully_ without the systems you deem necessary.


As I said, people got used to that this is all they are going to get..
Just like people get used to walking in worn shoes if they can't
afford new ones.


There are always people who are into overkill. Some of those will claim
or pretend that their favorite overkill item is actually a necessity.
But that's disproven by every person who does well without the overkill
item.


A vehicle where the light does not go out or dim way down is IMO not
overkill. The lighting "system" bicyles have would never pass muster
at type certification for motor vehicles. There are good reasons why not.


For just one example: I'm just back from another club ride. About 15
people were on the ride. Two of them had the newly fashionable daytime
rear blinkies. This particular ride has occurred once per week every
week except in winter for, oh, perhaps ten years. Nobody has ever been
hit by a car, despite the thousands of person-miles ridden (GASP!)
without blinkies.


I have never been hit from behind either but the number of close calls
has noticeably decreased since I have bright rear lights. Mission
accomplished. The best is, this was never very expensive to accomplish.

Now you can stick the head in the sand again and pretend it ain't so :-)

We've been over this multiple times, but:

If your number of close calls for hits-from-behind has gone way down, it
must have been pretty high to begin with. By contrast, I almost never
experience such a close call; therefore I'd never be able to see a big
reduction.

Why don't those close calls happen to me? Because those close calls are
almost always due in part to rider error - specifically, inviting close
passes by riding too far to the right.


Yeah, right. The woman who rode in the lane on Blue Ravine died because
of that. The other woman in the pickup truck who was drunk tried to
evade but the lane was now too narrow and *BAM*

[...]


You mean to say that you were run into on Blue Ravine and died? Or
this is just something that you saw on the TV?


I didn't have an operation to turn me into a woman :-)

It was shortly after we moved here about 20 years ago. That and several
other serious accidents combined with (or rather, caused by) the lack of
cycling infrastructure resulted in me and lots of others to mothball the
bikes for many years. While those accidents were not always fatal many
were what the medical folks call "life-changing" where riders became
crippled for the rest of their lives.


But even so, www.statista.com reported to be something in the
neighborhood of 66.52 million bicycle riders in Spring 2016.... and
one woman died?


That was one example of many. We have about one death a month in the
area, on average. Many are hit from behind.


Actually 726 died in the U.S. in 2014 ( the latest year I could find
without looking very hard) and in 2014 the above site tells me that
there were 67.33 million cyclists. So one cyclist was killed for every
10,096.4 that rode a bike. Obviously, statistically, bicycle riding is
a very dangerious pastime!

Perhaps the government should be encouraged to ban these dangerious
devices. Save Lives! Ban a Bike!


I read about them in our local paper and those are real stories, real
people, real grieving families and all that. People like Justin Vega:

http://fox40.com/2017/05/26/sacramen...d-25-year-old/


In San Francisco almost ALL of the bicycle deaths are from cyclists running lights or stop signs. I run stop signs as well but only when no other traffic is present or when I would hold up traffic at other stop signs by not running the sign.
  #44  
Old July 7th 17, 05:26 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Handlebar rotation

On 7/7/2017 10:26 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-06 19:34, wrote:
On Thursday, July 6, 2017 at 1:02:53 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-06 12:40, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/6/2017 3:14 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-06 12:05, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/6/2017 10:54 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-05 17:49, John B. wrote:

Yet people have been riding long distances on bicycles
for years and years. The first Paris - Brest - Paris
randonnée was held in 1891. An essentially non-stop
bicycle ride of 1,200 km. The British, of course, do it
better with the 1433 km London Edinburgh London 2017 and
the 'mericans have the Boston-Montreal-Boston, again a
1,200 km ride but no longer an official randonnée and now
strictly a permanent that anyone could ride on their own
in a self-supported manner while still receiving
recognition (validation) from Randonneurs USA.

Think of it, 126 years of successful long distance
bicycle riding without Joerg built lights.


It's simple. Most humans have a habit of accepting current
state-of-the-art as "that's as good as it gets". I don't,
and I derive most of my income from not thinking that way.
And yes, I already had bicycles with real electrical
systems when I was a teenager.

The detail you're missing is that people have always ridden
_successfully_ without the systems you deem necessary.


As I said, people got used to that this is all they are going
to get. Just like people get used to walking in worn shoes if
they can't afford new ones.


There are always people who are into overkill. Some of those
will claim or pretend that their favorite overkill item is
actually a necessity. But that's disproven by every person
who does well without the overkill item.


A vehicle where the light does not go out or dim way down is
IMO not overkill. The lighting "system" bicyles have would
never pass muster at type certification for motor vehicles.
There are good reasons why not.


For just one example: I'm just back from another club ride.
About 15 people were on the ride. Two of them had the newly
fashionable daytime rear blinkies. This particular ride has
occurred once per week every week except in winter for, oh,
perhaps ten years. Nobody has ever been hit by a car,
despite the thousands of person-miles ridden (GASP!) without
blinkies.


I have never been hit from behind either but the number of
close calls has noticeably decreased since I have bright rear
lights. Mission accomplished. The best is, this was never very
expensive to accomplish.

Now you can stick the head in the sand again and pretend it
ain't so :-)

We've been over this multiple times, but:

If your number of close calls for hits-from-behind has gone way
down, it must have been pretty high to begin with. By contrast,
I almost never experience such a close call; therefore I'd never
be able to see a big reduction.

Why don't those close calls happen to me? Because those close
calls are almost always due in part to rider error -
specifically, inviting close passes by riding too far to the
right.


Yeah, right. The woman who rode in the lane on Blue Ravine died
because of that. The other woman in the pickup truck who was drunk
tried to evade but the lane was now too narrow and *BAM*


Well, Frank is right. Bicycles offer a far smaller target and if you
wear bright clothing so that you don't catch drivers unaware you're
pretty safe.


AFAIR she had a bright jersey on.


Unless you ride in an area and at times drunk drivers are on the
road.


Not just those, also texting ones and more recently stoned drivers.

I found that lights are far better than any neon-colored jersey. Someone
with 1/2 watt LEDs that do a police cruiser spiel like mine can be seen
from half a mile away and gets the attention. End of this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI3iZ-Ch7pY


The end of that video shows the bike light indoors in a dark room.
Nobody here is saying that taillights are not valuable in the dark. In
fact, I think they should be a legal requirement after dark.
(Currently, only about three states require them instead of reflectors.)

I'm arguing against the currently fashionable superstition that a blinky
taillight makes a practical difference in ordinary daylight. I've seen
no decent evidence that it does. I've observed many dozens, perhaps
hundreds, of riders with daytime blinkies. In no case did I spot the
cyclist only because he had a blinky. In almost every case, I noticed
the cyclist first and only later saw "Oh, he's running his magic blinky."

Just like in this advertising photo:
https://www.outsideonline.com/sites/...?itok=QBL2UTKO

I saw that photo at least ten times before I wondered "So it's a
bicyclist being passed by a car. What are they advertising?" I thought
it was funny that they pretend you wouldn't see the rider unless he had
the taillight under his saddle.

Oh, and he's riding too far to the right. There's no way that car can
give three feet of clearance without crossing the yellow line. That
means the rider should make that clear by his lane position.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #45  
Old July 7th 17, 05:33 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Handlebar rotation

On 7/7/2017 10:33 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-06 20:11, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 06 Jul 2017 13:02:57 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-07-06 12:40, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/6/2017 3:14 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-06 12:05, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/6/2017 10:54 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-05 17:49, John B. wrote:

Yet people have been riding long distances on bicycles for years
and
years. The first Paris - Brest - Paris randonnée was held in
1891. An
essentially non-stop bicycle ride of 1,200 km. The British, of
course,
do it better with the 1433 km London Edinburgh London 2017 and the
'mericans have the Boston-Montreal-Boston, again a 1,200 km ride
but
no longer an official randonnée and now strictly a permanent that
anyone could ride on their own in a self-supported manner while
still
receiving recognition (validation) from Randonneurs USA.

Think of it, 126 years of successful long distance bicycle riding
without Joerg built lights.


It's simple. Most humans have a habit of accepting current
state-of-the-art as "that's as good as it gets". I don't, and I
derive
most of my income from not thinking that way. And yes, I already had
bicycles with real electrical systems when I was a teenager.

The detail you're missing is that people have always ridden
_successfully_ without the systems you deem necessary.


As I said, people got used to that this is all they are going to get.
Just like people get used to walking in worn shoes if they can't
afford new ones.


There are always people who are into overkill. Some of those will
claim
or pretend that their favorite overkill item is actually a necessity.
But that's disproven by every person who does well without the
overkill
item.


A vehicle where the light does not go out or dim way down is IMO not
overkill. The lighting "system" bicyles have would never pass muster
at type certification for motor vehicles. There are good reasons
why not.


For just one example: I'm just back from another club ride. About 15
people were on the ride. Two of them had the newly fashionable
daytime
rear blinkies. This particular ride has occurred once per week every
week except in winter for, oh, perhaps ten years. Nobody has ever
been
hit by a car, despite the thousands of person-miles ridden (GASP!)
without blinkies.


I have never been hit from behind either but the number of close calls
has noticeably decreased since I have bright rear lights. Mission
accomplished. The best is, this was never very expensive to
accomplish.

Now you can stick the head in the sand again and pretend it ain't
so :-)

We've been over this multiple times, but:

If your number of close calls for hits-from-behind has gone way
down, it
must have been pretty high to begin with. By contrast, I almost never
experience such a close call; therefore I'd never be able to see a big
reduction.

Why don't those close calls happen to me? Because those close calls
are
almost always due in part to rider error - specifically, inviting close
passes by riding too far to the right.


Yeah, right. The woman who rode in the lane on Blue Ravine died because
of that. The other woman in the pickup truck who was drunk tried to
evade but the lane was now too narrow and *BAM*

[...]


You mean to say that you were run into on Blue Ravine and died? Or
this is just something that you saw on the TV?


I didn't have an operation to turn me into a woman :-)

It was shortly after we moved here about 20 years ago. That and several
other serious accidents combined with (or rather, caused by) the lack of
cycling infrastructure resulted in me and lots of others to mothball the
bikes for many years. While those accidents were not always fatal many
were what the medical folks call "life-changing" where riders became
crippled for the rest of their lives.


But even so, www.statista.com reported to be something in the
neighborhood of 66.52 million bicycle riders in Spring 2016.... and
one woman died?


That was one example of many. We have about one death a month in the
area, on average. Many are hit from behind.


Yes, we know your area is far more dangerous than the rest of the world.

Actually 726 died in the U.S. in 2014 ( the latest year I could find
without looking very hard) and in 2014 the above site tells me that
there were 67.33 million cyclists. So one cyclist was killed for every
10,096.4 that rode a bike. Obviously, statistically, bicycle riding is
a very dangerious pastime!

Perhaps the government should be encouraged to ban these dangerious
devices. Save Lives! Ban a Bike!


I read about them in our local paper and those are real stories, real
people, real grieving families and all that. People like Justin Vega:

http://fox40.com/2017/05/26/sacramen...d-25-year-old/


That crash happened at night. The question is, did that rider have a
taillight?

I ask because a high percentage of nighttime car-bike crashes involve
unlit cyclists. If the people promoting useless daytime lights shifted
their energy to promoting nighttime lights, many more lives would be saved.

Daytime lights are a superstition. Nighttime lights are a legal and
practical requirement.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #46  
Old July 7th 17, 06:56 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default Handlebar rotation

On 2017-07-07 07:49, wrote:
On Friday, July 7, 2017 at 7:25:53 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-06 19:34,
wrote:
On Thursday, July 6, 2017 at 1:02:53 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-06 12:40, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/6/2017 3:14 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-06 12:05, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/6/2017 10:54 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-05 17:49, John B. wrote:

Yet people have been riding long distances on
bicycles for years and years. The first Paris - Brest
- Paris randonnée was held in 1891. An essentially
non-stop bicycle ride of 1,200 km. The British, of
course, do it better with the 1433 km London
Edinburgh London 2017 and the 'mericans have the
Boston-Montreal-Boston, again a 1,200 km ride but no
longer an official randonnée and now strictly a
permanent that anyone could ride on their own in a
self-supported manner while still receiving
recognition (validation) from Randonneurs USA.

Think of it, 126 years of successful long distance
bicycle riding without Joerg built lights.


It's simple. Most humans have a habit of accepting
current state-of-the-art as "that's as good as it
gets". I don't, and I derive most of my income from not
thinking that way. And yes, I already had bicycles with
real electrical systems when I was a teenager.

The detail you're missing is that people have always
ridden _successfully_ without the systems you deem
necessary.


As I said, people got used to that this is all they are
going to get. Just like people get used to walking in worn
shoes if they can't afford new ones.


There are always people who are into overkill. Some of
those will claim or pretend that their favorite overkill
item is actually a necessity. But that's disproven by
every person who does well without the overkill item.


A vehicle where the light does not go out or dim way down
is IMO not overkill. The lighting "system" bicyles have
would never pass muster at type certification for motor
vehicles. There are good reasons why not.


For just one example: I'm just back from another club
ride. About 15 people were on the ride. Two of them had
the newly fashionable daytime rear blinkies. This
particular ride has occurred once per week every week
except in winter for, oh, perhaps ten years. Nobody has
ever been hit by a car, despite the thousands of
person-miles ridden (GASP!) without blinkies.


I have never been hit from behind either but the number of
close calls has noticeably decreased since I have bright
rear lights. Mission accomplished. The best is, this was
never very expensive to accomplish.

Now you can stick the head in the sand again and pretend
it ain't so :-)

We've been over this multiple times, but:

If your number of close calls for hits-from-behind has gone
way down, it must have been pretty high to begin with. By
contrast, I almost never experience such a close call;
therefore I'd never be able to see a big reduction.

Why don't those close calls happen to me? Because those
close calls are almost always due in part to rider error -
specifically, inviting close passes by riding too far to the
right.


Yeah, right. The woman who rode in the lane on Blue Ravine
died because of that. The other woman in the pickup truck who
was drunk tried to evade but the lane was now too narrow and
*BAM*

Well, Frank is right. Bicycles offer a far smaller target and if
you wear bright clothing so that you don't catch drivers unaware
you're pretty safe.


AFAIR she had a bright jersey on.


Unless you ride in an area and at times drunk drivers are on the
road.


Not just those, also texting ones and more recently stoned
drivers.

I found that lights are far better than any neon-colored jersey.
Someone with 1/2 watt LEDs that do a police cruiser spiel like mine
can be seen from half a mile away and gets the attention. End of
this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI3iZ-Ch7pY


The lights on the GoPro camera are similar to that. And looking at
the video you can plainly see that the lights make no difference
whatsoever.



Where do you see that? This sort of police cruiser pattern is really
visible. Easily 1/2 mile. I never ride without, on roads it is always on
no matter what time of the day.


... Many of the members of the group I would ride with if I
was feeling OK have those cameras and we get their postings often
enough and in every case you can see that that they consider "close
passes" are done on purpose.


Some are but most in my case were inattentiveness. "Oh, very sorry,
dude. I totally forgot I had that wide trailer behind me. My apologies".
Or the guy with the truck that had windows haulimng racks on the side.
And so on.

Others give wide room and then realize they grossly misjudged the speed
or distance of oncoming traffic. Then they have the choice between a
nasty head-on crash or pushing close to me.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #47  
Old July 7th 17, 06:59 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default Handlebar rotation

On 2017-07-07 09:26, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/7/2017 10:26 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-06 19:34, wrote:
On Thursday, July 6, 2017 at 1:02:53 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-06 12:40, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/6/2017 3:14 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-06 12:05, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/6/2017 10:54 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-05 17:49, John B. wrote:

Yet people have been riding long distances on bicycles
for years and years. The first Paris - Brest - Paris
randonnée was held in 1891. An essentially non-stop
bicycle ride of 1,200 km. The British, of course, do it
better with the 1433 km London Edinburgh London 2017 and
the 'mericans have the Boston-Montreal-Boston, again a
1,200 km ride but no longer an official randonnée and now
strictly a permanent that anyone could ride on their own
in a self-supported manner while still receiving
recognition (validation) from Randonneurs USA.

Think of it, 126 years of successful long distance
bicycle riding without Joerg built lights.


It's simple. Most humans have a habit of accepting current
state-of-the-art as "that's as good as it gets". I don't,
and I derive most of my income from not thinking that way.
And yes, I already had bicycles with real electrical
systems when I was a teenager.

The detail you're missing is that people have always ridden
_successfully_ without the systems you deem necessary.


As I said, people got used to that this is all they are going
to get. Just like people get used to walking in worn shoes if
they can't afford new ones.


There are always people who are into overkill. Some of those
will claim or pretend that their favorite overkill item is
actually a necessity. But that's disproven by every person
who does well without the overkill item.


A vehicle where the light does not go out or dim way down is
IMO not overkill. The lighting "system" bicyles have would
never pass muster at type certification for motor vehicles.
There are good reasons why not.


For just one example: I'm just back from another club ride.
About 15 people were on the ride. Two of them had the newly
fashionable daytime rear blinkies. This particular ride has
occurred once per week every week except in winter for, oh,
perhaps ten years. Nobody has ever been hit by a car,
despite the thousands of person-miles ridden (GASP!) without
blinkies.


I have never been hit from behind either but the number of
close calls has noticeably decreased since I have bright rear
lights. Mission accomplished. The best is, this was never very
expensive to accomplish.

Now you can stick the head in the sand again and pretend it
ain't so :-)

We've been over this multiple times, but:

If your number of close calls for hits-from-behind has gone way
down, it must have been pretty high to begin with. By contrast,
I almost never experience such a close call; therefore I'd never
be able to see a big reduction.

Why don't those close calls happen to me? Because those close
calls are almost always due in part to rider error -
specifically, inviting close passes by riding too far to the
right.


Yeah, right. The woman who rode in the lane on Blue Ravine died
because of that. The other woman in the pickup truck who was drunk
tried to evade but the lane was now too narrow and *BAM*

Well, Frank is right. Bicycles offer a far smaller target and if you
wear bright clothing so that you don't catch drivers unaware you're
pretty safe.


AFAIR she had a bright jersey on.


Unless you ride in an area and at times drunk drivers are on the
road.


Not just those, also texting ones and more recently stoned drivers.

I found that lights are far better than any neon-colored jersey.
Someone with 1/2 watt LEDs that do a police cruiser spiel like mine
can be seen from half a mile away and gets the attention. End of this
video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI3iZ-Ch7pY


The end of that video shows the bike light indoors in a dark room.
Nobody here is saying that taillights are not valuable in the dark. In
fact, I think they should be a legal requirement after dark. (Currently,
only about three states require them instead of reflectors.)

I'm arguing against the currently fashionable superstition that a blinky
taillight makes a practical difference in ordinary daylight. I've seen
no decent evidence that it does. ...



I have, big time. Therefore, mine is lit anytime you see my bike on
roads. On bike paths I turn it off during the day.



... I've observed many dozens, perhaps
hundreds, of riders with daytime blinkies. In no case did I spot the
cyclist only because he had a blinky. In almost every case, I noticed
the cyclist first and only later saw "Oh, he's running his magic blinky."

Just like in this advertising photo:
https://www.outsideonline.com/sites/...?itok=QBL2UTKO


I meant at a much greater distance and also not some li'l Walmart blinky
but a real light.


I saw that photo at least ten times before I wondered "So it's a
bicyclist being passed by a car. What are they advertising?" I thought
it was funny that they pretend you wouldn't see the rider unless he had
the taillight under his saddle.

Oh, and he's riding too far to the right. There's no way that car can
give three feet of clearance without crossing the yellow line. That
means the rider should make that clear by his lane position.


And get a ticket in places like CA.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #48  
Old July 7th 17, 07:02 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
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Posts: 6,016
Default Handlebar rotation

On 2017-07-07 07:51, wrote:
On Friday, July 7, 2017 at 7:33:53 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-06 20:11, John B. wrote:


[...]

Actually 726 died in the U.S. in 2014 ( the latest year I could
find without looking very hard) and in 2014 the above site tells
me that there were 67.33 million cyclists. So one cyclist was
killed for every 10,096.4 that rode a bike. Obviously,
statistically, bicycle riding is a very dangerious pastime!

Perhaps the government should be encouraged to ban these
dangerious devices. Save Lives! Ban a Bike!


I read about them in our local paper and those are real stories,
real people, real grieving families and all that. People like
Justin Vega:

http://fox40.com/2017/05/26/sacramen...d-25-year-old/


In San Francisco almost ALL of the bicycle deaths are from cyclists
running lights or stop signs. I run stop signs as well but only when
no other traffic is present or when I would hold up traffic at other
stop signs by not running the sign.


Out here most get smasehd into from behind. "Taking the lane" can be
deadly out here and nobody in their right mind does that.

I know about S.F. and really do not enjoy driving a car there. Mostly
because of the kamikaze cyclists.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #49  
Old July 7th 17, 08:33 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,477
Default Handlebar rotation

On 7/6/17 9:11 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/6/2017 11:00 PM, sms wrote:


What most of us have found is that using adequate lighting causes a
change in behavior of motor vehicles because the cyclists is much more
visible. You have fewer close calls. You have fewer vehicles turning
left in front of you as you approach a traffic light, and fewer
vehicles exiting parking lots or driveways in your path because they
can see you.


I've seen no evidence that those claims apply to "most of us here."
Instead, what I've seen is evidence that you (i.e. Stephen M. Scharf)
and Joerg firmly believe that.


Actually, you believe it too. The issue is that you've become so
invested in false narrative, on a variety of subjects related to
cycling, that you're unwilling to publicly admit what you know is true.

We have a president like that.
  #50  
Old July 7th 17, 08:54 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default Handlebar rotation

On Friday, July 7, 2017 at 12:37:20 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 7/6/17 9:11 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/6/2017 11:00 PM, sms wrote:


What most of us have found is that using adequate lighting causes a
change in behavior of motor vehicles because the cyclists is much more
visible. You have fewer close calls. You have fewer vehicles turning
left in front of you as you approach a traffic light, and fewer
vehicles exiting parking lots or driveways in your path because they
can see you.


I've seen no evidence that those claims apply to "most of us here."
Instead, what I've seen is evidence that you (i.e. Stephen M. Scharf)
and Joerg firmly believe that.


Actually, you believe it too. The issue is that you've become so
invested in false narrative, on a variety of subjects related to
cycling, that you're unwilling to publicly admit what you know is true.

We have a president like that.


I haven't used a front or rear light since the time change, and the world seems pretty much the same. My close calls have been with other cyclists, some of whom were using bright lights -- which apparently is no guaranty of skill on a bike. And BTW, I could see them coming without the lights because many were also dressed in fluorescent clothing. In daylight, I always see the jersey first and light second with rare exception (hard dappled light).

-- Jay Beattie.



 




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