"Bicycles Should Not be Allowed on Footpaths"

On Jul 22, 8:19*pm, Mike Vandeman wrote:
On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 23:18:40 -0700 (PDT), y_p_w
wrote:





On Jul 20, 7:46*pm, Mike Vandeman wrote:
On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 00:52:39 -0700
wrote:

On Jul 19, 6:41*pm, Mike Vandeman wrote:
On Sat, 19 Jul 2008 16:42:48 -0700
wrote:

On Jul 19, 8:26*am, Mike Vandeman wrote:
On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 17:58:56 -0700 (PDT), bluezfolk

wrote:
On Jul 17, 7:41 pm, Mike Vandeman wrote:
On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 08:07:25 -0700 (PDT), Siskuwihane

wrote:
On Jul 17, 10:28 am, Mike Vandeman wrote:
On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 06:20:35 -0700 (PDT), Siskuwihane

wrote:
On Jul 16, 11:35 pm, Mike Vandeman wrote:
From: [a Marin County resident]
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 15:40:54 -0700
Subject: Mt.bikes on trails

I have lived in Marin County for 50 years, seeing firsthand the rise
of, and impact from, mountain bicycling. *I am an equestrian and
hiker.

Animals should not be used as vehicles, especially when people can
always WALK! I have yet to meet ANYONE who cleans up after their horse
deficates in the middle of a path or trail. Why are people so SELFISH,
making an animal carry them?

It's better than using motor vehicles or mountain bikes. For people
with disabilities, it may be their only access to wilderness.

Wrong.

NO animal should be used as a vehicle for a human, a point you seem to
be avoiding, that's not surprising considering your documented habit
of avoiding the TRUTH. *A horse doesn't ask to carry around a human,
dummy.

Wildlife doesn't want what is "better" for selfish people,

There isn't much that's more selfish than working in the airline
industry. Or denying people with disabilities the right to visit the
wilderness they pay for.

*they want

what's BEST for them and that means not having their lives interupted
or habitat destroyed by *people who have to bring huge animals into
their environment for their own pleasure.

Horses are domesticated animals, not wildlife.
--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

So I guess what you are hinting at is that its alright to abuse
domesticated animals, but not alright to abuse wildlife.

I didn't say that. YOU did.

* Perhaps

since thy're not native to North America they should be sent back to
where they came from.

Horses are native to North America. Ther evolved here.

Some horse-like species were native to North America until they became
extinct. *That would be about as close as mastodons or wooly mammoths
are to modern elephants.

Any horse today would trace its lineage from Europe or Asia.

Thanks for demonstrating your utter ignorance. The HORSE evolved in
North America. I.e., ALL horses trace their lineage to North America.

No - the horse evolved all over the world.

Right, after ORIGINATING in North America, as I said.

Your point being?

My point being that horses have an arguable right to be here. Bicycles
DON'T. They have no rights whatsoever.

No one cares what your point is, doucheboy.

On Jul 22, 5:19*pm, Mike Vandeman wrote:
On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 23:18:40 -0700
wrote:
No - the horse evolved all over the world.

Right, after ORIGINATING in North America, as I said.

Your point being?

My point being that horses have an arguable right to be here. Bicycles
DON'T. They have no rights whatsoever.

A bicycle is an inanimate object. Its use by humans is subject to
laws written my humans. Bicycles aren't allowed on unpaved trails in
most National Park Service lands, and not in designated federal
wilderness areas. I have no problem with that or the use of bikes on
trails where it is legal.

However - the modern horse comes from domesticated animals. It's
almost like having packs of feral dogs, cats, or pigs. Feral animals
tend to be very destructive to ecosystems, and can include wild horses.

y_p_w wrote:
On Jul 22, 5:19 pm, Mike Vandeman wrote:
On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 23:18:40 -0700
wrote:
No - the horse evolved all over the world.
Right, after ORIGINATING in North America, as I said.
Your point being?
My point being that horses have an arguable right to be here. Bicycles
DON'T. They have no rights whatsoever.

A bicycle is an inanimate object. Its use by humans is subject to
laws written my humans. Bicycles aren't allowed on unpaved trails in
most National Park Service lands, and not in designated federal
wilderness areas. I have no problem with that or the use of bikes on
trails where it is legal.

I see no reason why cyclists should be banned from trails. If the area
is that sensitive to disturbance, the only humans should be a few
scientists who monitor and study the area.

However - the modern horse comes from domesticated animals. It's
almost like having packs of feral dogs, cats, or pigs. Feral animals
tend to be very destructive to ecosystems, and can include wild horses.

Except for lions, cats do not form packs.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"People who had no mercy will find none." - Anon.

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 18:16:44 -0700 (PDT), y_p_w
wrote:

On Jul 22, 5:19*pm, Mike Vandeman wrote:
On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 23:18:40 -0700
wrote:
No - the horse evolved all over the world.

Right, after ORIGINATING in North America, as I said.

Your point being?

My point being that horses have an arguable right to be here. Bicycles
DON'T. They have no rights whatsoever.

A bicycle is an inanimate object. Its use by humans is subject to
laws written my humans.

And the wildlife, whose home it is, have no say whatsoever! Bikes
don't belong in natural areas, no matter what the law says.

Bicycles aren't allowed on unpaved trails in
most National Park Service lands, and not in designated federal
wilderness areas. I have no problem with that or the use of bikes on
trails where it is legal.

However - the modern horse comes from domesticated animals. It's
almost like having packs of feral dogs, cats, or pigs. Feral animals
tend to be very destructive to ecosystems, and can include wild horses.

Unless they are a part of the ecosystem, which horses ARE. If you are
worried about exotics, humans should be at the top of your list.
--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

On Jul 22, 8:45*pm, Mike Vandeman wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 18:16:44 -0700
wrote:
A bicycle is an inanimate object. *Its use by humans is subject to
laws written my humans.

And the wildlife, whose home it is, have no say whatsoever! Bikes
don't belong in natural areas, no matter what the law says.

Natural areas? If they were natural areas, human beings wouldn't have
cleared the vegetation, put up signs.

How about you Mike Vandeman have no say whatsoever? Because all I see
you spout is nonsense based on some preconceived notion that bicycles
are incompatible with wildlife. The Swiss Army has been using bicycle
patrols on forested trails for a long, long time with minimal impact
on wildlife. I've lived among real wildlife in a suburban setting
nearly all my life. They adapt quite well and tolerate humans, from
squirrels to birds, and deer.

* Bicycles aren't allowed on unpaved trails in

most National Park Service lands, and not in designated federal
wilderness areas. *I have no problem with that or the use of bikes on
trails where it is legal.

However - the modern horse comes from domesticated animals. *It's
almost like having packs of feral dogs, cats, or pigs. *Feral animals
tend to be very destructive to ecosystems, and can include wild horses.

Unless they are a part of the ecosystem, which horses ARE. If you are
worried about exotics, humans should be at the top of your list.

Exactly what part of domesticated animal don't you understand?
Perhaps horses were born with a bit in their mouth, a saddle on their
back, and metal horseshoes on their hooves. And you sir must have
been born with a foot in your mouth.

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 22:44:17 -0500, Tom Sherman
wrote:

y_p_w wrote:
On Jul 22, 5:19 pm, Mike Vandeman wrote:
On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 23:18:40 -0700
wrote:
No - the horse evolved all over the world.
Right, after ORIGINATING in North America, as I said.
Your point being?
My point being that horses have an arguable right to be here. Bicycles
DON'T. They have no rights whatsoever.

A bicycle is an inanimate object. Its use by humans is subject to
laws written my humans. Bicycles aren't allowed on unpaved trails in
most National Park Service lands, and not in designated federal
wilderness areas. I have no problem with that or the use of bikes on
trails where it is legal.

I see no reason why cyclists should be banned from trails.

Cyclists AREN'T banned from trails, idiot. BICYCLES are banned. If you
are interested in the reasons, see
http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/scb7 & other information on my
website.

If the area
is that sensitive to disturbance, the only humans should be a few
scientists who monitor and study the area.

Why should scientists be allowed there? They are human.

However - the modern horse comes from domesticated animals. It's
almost like having packs of feral dogs, cats, or pigs. Feral animals
tend to be very destructive to ecosystems, and can include wild horses.

Except for lions, cats do not form packs.
--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 22:40:48 -0700 (PDT), y_p_w
wrote:

On Jul 22, 8:45*pm, Mike Vandeman wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 18:16:44 -0700
wrote:
A bicycle is an inanimate object. *Its use by humans is subject to
laws written my humans.

And the wildlife, whose home it is, have no say whatsoever! Bikes
don't belong in natural areas, no matter what the law says.

Natural areas? If they were natural areas, human beings wouldn't have
cleared the vegetation, put up signs.

What do you think trails are? Destroyed habitat!

How about you Mike Vandeman have no say whatsoever? Because all I see
you spout is nonsense based on some preconceived notion that bicycles
are incompatible with wildlife. The Swiss Army has been using bicycle
patrols on forested trails for a long, long time with minimal impact
on wildlife.

Animals and plants that are killed have "minimal impact"? Tell the
truth!

I've lived among real wildlife in a suburban setting
nearly all my life. They adapt quite well and tolerate humans, from
squirrels to birds, and deer.

Obviously, you only see the ones that are willing to compromise and
live around humans. The ones that aren't are either dead or gone!

* Bicycles aren't allowed on unpaved trails in

most National Park Service lands, and not in designated federal
wilderness areas. *I have no problem with that or the use of bikes on
trails where it is legal.

However - the modern horse comes from domesticated animals. *It's
almost like having packs of feral dogs, cats, or pigs. *Feral animals
tend to be very destructive to ecosystems, and can include wild horses.

Unless they are a part of the ecosystem, which horses ARE. If you are
worried about exotics, humans should be at the top of your list.

Exactly what part of domesticated animal don't you understand?
Perhaps horses were born with a bit in their mouth, a saddle on their
back, and metal horseshoes on their hooves. And you sir must have
been born with a foot in your mouth.

As I said, horses evolved in North America, and hence are a part of
this ecosystem. Humans, of course, force some of them to serve them,
and don't let them live freely. That's not the horses' fault.
--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

On Jul 23, 9:14*am, Mike Vandeman wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 22:40:48 -0700 (PDT), y_p_w
wrote:

On Jul 22, 8:45*pm, Mike Vandeman wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 18:16:44 -0700
wrote:
A bicycle is an inanimate object. *Its use by humans is subject to
laws written my humans.

And the wildlife, whose home it is, have no say whatsoever! Bikes
don't belong in natural areas, no matter what the law says.

Natural areas? *If they were natural areas, human beings wouldn't have
cleared the vegetation, put up signs.

What do you think trails are? Destroyed habitat!

Like animal trails?


How about you Mike Vandeman have no say whatsoever? *Because all I see
you spout is nonsense based on some preconceived notion that bicycles
are incompatible with wildlife. *The Swiss Army has been using bicycle
patrols on forested trails for a long, long time with minimal impact
on wildlife.

Animals and plants that are killed have "minimal impact"? Tell the
truth!

Flying commercial airlines has a huge impact and yet you use them,
tell the truth!


* I've lived among real wildlife in a suburban setting

nearly all my life. *They adapt quite well and tolerate humans, from
squirrels to birds, and deer.

Obviously, you only see the ones that are willing to compromise and
live around humans. The ones that aren't are either dead or gone!

You have flunked basic biology. Animals are not "willing to
compromise", they do not have that capacity, they adapt or flee, they
are free to go elsewhere.

* Bicycles aren't allowed on unpaved trails in

most National Park Service lands, and not in designated federal
wilderness areas. *I have no problem with that or the use of bikes on
trails where it is legal.

However - the modern horse comes from domesticated animals. *It's
almost like having packs of feral dogs, cats, or pigs. *Feral animals
tend to be very destructive to ecosystems, and can include wild horses.

Unless they are a part of the ecosystem, which horses ARE. If you are
worried about exotics, humans should be at the top of your list.

Exactly what part of domesticated animal don't you understand?
Perhaps horses were born with a bit in their mouth, a saddle on their
back, and metal horseshoes on their hooves. *And you sir must have
been born with a foot in your mouth.

As I said, horses evolved in North America, and hence are a part of
this ecosystem. Humans, of course, force some of them to serve them,
and don't let them live freely. That's not the horses' fault.

What hypocrisy since you are a pet owner. I doubt your cat spoke to
you and said he needed an irresponsible "owner".

On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 09:06:35 -0700 (PDT), Siskuwihane
wrote:

On Jul 23, 9:14*am, Mike Vandeman wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 22:40:48 -0700 (PDT), y_p_w
wrote:

On Jul 22, 8:45*pm, Mike Vandeman wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 18:16:44 -0700
wrote:
A bicycle is an inanimate object. *Its use by humans is subject to
laws written my humans.

And the wildlife, whose home it is, have no say whatsoever! Bikes
don't belong in natural areas, no matter what the law says.

Natural areas? *If they were natural areas, human beings wouldn't have
cleared the vegetation, put up signs.

What do you think trails are? Destroyed habitat!

Like animal trails?

No. Wildlife have adapted to each other's trails. Human-made trails
are quite different. But of course, you already knew that, and chose
to pretend ignorance.

How about you Mike Vandeman have no say whatsoever? *Because all I see
you spout is nonsense based on some preconceived notion that bicycles
are incompatible with wildlife. *The Swiss Army has been using bicycle
patrols on forested trails for a long, long time with minimal impact
on wildlife.

Animals and plants that are killed have "minimal impact"? Tell the
truth!

Flying commercial airlines has a huge impact and yet you use them,
tell the truth!


* I've lived among real wildlife in a suburban setting

nearly all my life. *They adapt quite well and tolerate humans, from
squirrels to birds, and deer.

Obviously, you only see the ones that are willing to compromise and
live around humans. The ones that aren't are either dead or gone!

You have flunked basic biology. Animals are not "willing to
compromise", they do not have that capacity, they adapt or flee, they
are free to go elsewhere.

Thanks for demonstrating your utter ignorance of basic biology.
Wildlife choose their habitat because it has resources they need.
Moving, especially lately, is frequently not an option. Or not a good
option.

* Bicycles aren't allowed on unpaved trails in

most National Park Service lands, and not in designated federal
wilderness areas. *I have no problem with that or the use of bikes on
trails where it is legal.

However - the modern horse comes from domesticated animals. *It's
almost like having packs of feral dogs, cats, or pigs. *Feral animals
tend to be very destructive to ecosystems, and can include wild horses.

Unless they are a part of the ecosystem, which horses ARE. If you are
worried about exotics, humans should be at the top of your list.

Exactly what part of domesticated animal don't you understand?
Perhaps horses were born with a bit in their mouth, a saddle on their
back, and metal horseshoes on their hooves. *And you sir must have
been born with a foot in your mouth.

As I said, horses evolved in North America, and hence are a part of
this ecosystem. Humans, of course, force some of them to serve them,
and don't let them live freely. That's not the horses' fault.

What hypocrisy since you are a pet owner.

No, I'm not. "Liar" is your middle name.

I doubt your cat spoke to
you and said he needed an irresponsible "owner".
--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

On Jul 23, 11:26*pm, Mike Vandeman wrote:
On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 09:06:35 -0700 (PDT), Siskuwihane





wrote:
On Jul 23, 9:14*am, Mike Vandeman wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 22:40:48 -0700 (PDT), y_p_w
wrote:

On Jul 22, 8:45*pm, Mike Vandeman wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 18:16:44 -0700
wrote:
A bicycle is an inanimate object. *Its use by humans is subject to
laws written my humans.

And the wildlife, whose home it is, have no say whatsoever! Bikes
don't belong in natural areas, no matter what the law says.

Natural areas? *If they were natural areas, human beings wouldn't have
cleared the vegetation, put up signs.

What do you think trails are? Destroyed habitat!

Like animal trails?

No. Wildlife have adapted to each other's trails. Human-made trails
are quite different. But of course, you already knew that, and chose
to pretend ignorance.

Nope.

How about you Mike Vandeman have no say whatsoever? *Because all I see
you spout is nonsense based on some preconceived notion that bicycles
are incompatible with wildlife. *The Swiss Army has been using bicycle
patrols on forested trails for a long, long time with minimal impact
on wildlife.

Animals and plants that are killed have "minimal impact"? Tell the
truth!

Flying commercial airlines has a huge impact and yet you use them,
tell the truth!

* I've lived among real wildlife in a suburban setting

nearly all my life. *They adapt quite well and tolerate humans, from
squirrels to birds, and deer.

Obviously, you only see the ones that are willing to compromise and
live around humans. The ones that aren't are either dead or gone!

You have flunked basic biology. Animals are not "willing to
compromise", they do not have that capacity, they adapt or flee, they
are free to go elsewhere.

Thanks for demonstrating your utter ignorance of basic biology.
Wildlife choose their habitat because it has resources they need.
Moving, especially lately, is frequently not an option. Or not a good
option.

Wrong.



* Bicycles aren't allowed on unpaved trails in

most National Park Service lands, and not in designated federal
wilderness areas. *I have no problem with that or the use of bikes on
trails where it is legal.

However - the modern horse comes from domesticated animals. *It's
almost like having packs of feral dogs, cats, or pigs. *Feral animals
tend to be very destructive to ecosystems, and can include wild horses.

Unless they are a part of the ecosystem, which horses ARE. If you are
worried about exotics, humans should be at the top of your list.

Exactly what part of domesticated animal don't you understand?
Perhaps horses were born with a bit in their mouth, a saddle on their
back, and metal horseshoes on their hooves. *And you sir must have
been born with a foot in your mouth.

As I said, horses evolved in North America, and hence are a part of
this ecosystem. Humans, of course, force some of them to serve them,
and don't let them live freely. That's not the horses' fault.

What hypocrisy since you are a pet owner.

No, I'm not. "Liar" is your middle name.

Lie.


*I doubt your cat spoke toyou and said he needed an irresponsible "owner".