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  #21  
Old September 21st 20, 02:18 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
pH Steinbruner
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Posts: 4
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On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 at 5:45:42 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
I got my wife an eBike for her birthday via my son at Specialized. Box arrived yesterday, and I about herniated myself getting it into the garage. One of these: https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear...o-vado-reivew/ I had no idea it was a Buycycling Editor's choice, but I'll go with it. Being family, I got employee pricing -- otherwise it would have been a harder choice. Even the bottom of the range is expensive, but it is a nice bike.

There were some odd-ball assembly issues, and I still have to update the firmware (which is like a huge thing because you want the latest performance advantages!), but it went together fine. Lots of bells (literally) and whistles.

My wife is 5'10" (or used to be), so my son sized her as a large, which is fine for saddle to pedal distance, but the tire height/BB makes the stand-over high, even with a sloping top-tube. The thing is like a mini-motorcycle. She has some neuro/ortho conditions that affect her mobility, but she seems to be fine swinging her leg over the saddle and off the bike. She doesn't complain, which is sometimes a problem. "Oh its fine [followed by catastrophe]." I do worry about the size of the thing, though.

On max setting, the bike is super fast with a top speed of 28mph. I'm going to throw on a QR seatpost clamp so I can use it for shopping. You would need a truck to steal it, and it has a kickstand and a really swanky little rack. The future is now! My son is trying to get me interested in the mega-zillion dollar 22lb stealth eBikes -- so I can keep up with him, but I would need a winning lottery ticket, even at employee pricing.

In another small bicycle-world twist, my son tells me I'll need a hitch rack tray that my wife can roll the bike onto -- made by Yakima. So I walk down the street and ask my neighbor and best bicycling buddy -- who is head of products for Yakima and happened to be working in his yard, for a rack. Its on the way. Life is good.

-- Jay Beattie.


Hey, Jay...
I'm sure you're aware of the BaFang mid-drive motor kits and their 250W, 500W, 750W and 1KW offerings;

I see they now have a competitor--CYC--that looks pretty slick and claims 3KW and 5KW models.
https://www.cycmotor.com/

seems like chain-snapping time, to me. I had always daydreamed about the 1KW bafang, mainly for its robustness, me being a Clydesdale and all.

I have my 250W elation up at my mom's in flat old Napa, CA. Don't see any more motors in my immedfiate future.

I've seen an Easy Racer (recumbent) that was BaFang equipped...maybe the whiff would like a recumbent? (I like mine.)

pH in Aptos
Ads
  #22  
Old September 21st 20, 04:08 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
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On Sunday, September 20, 2020 at 4:59:59 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, September 20, 2020 at 2:35:38 PM UTC+1, Sepp Ruf wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
Wait, something's amiss: Nobody mentioned recumbents!

You may be old enough to be grateful to sit down on a recumbent, but if
you're on RBT it is almost guaranteed that you aren't young enough to
stand up again from a recumbent.

Almost.
It's a steel!
https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/utopia-kranich-damenrad-retro-sammlerstueck-raritaet-28-zoll/1494211544-217-4350


Not bad for a bike first designed in 1935, first sold to the public in
1936.

Andre Jute No fashion victims here

Below is another mid-late 1990's build, probably in even better shape. Add
the guy's Grundig radio on top, get a pair of non-petrified brake pads, pay
500 euros, and even a fashion victim like Beattie junior could receive
selfie requests from shy Mormon cheerleader girls and nods of approval from
white-haired Lohas Portlanders -- until he spectacularly falls off the bike
because he forgot there's coaster brake.
https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/utopia-fahrrad-moewe-7-gang-nabenschaltung-28-/1475927220-217-1556


"Shy Mormon cheerleader girls" forward enough to ask the opposite sex for selfies, that's surely that rare creature, a double oxymoron.

The bike in the ad is not a Kranich but a ladies' version of the Moewe. One of the small snobberies of being a Utopia owner is distinguishing bikes with pretty much the same profile and, in this case, plan too. The main difference is that the Mowe was built with near-off-the-shelf Columbus tubes, while the modern Kranich is built with custom-drawn tubes. I have no idea whether it makes a difference. Maybe in like for like bikes it might save a few ounces, but the modern Kranich frame and fittings are so much wider that I'm sure the weight gain is lost again in the various crosswise pieces which are now longer. It is enough that one has a bike built by obsessives who do nothing without a reason, and when they have a reason do not ask irrelevant accounting questions but just do it regardless. I'm such a person too, so I'm in perfect sympathy with my bike and its makers -- I've kept my Kranich for ten years now, while none of my other bikes lasted longer than two years.

I'll tell you what else is weirder than the "bicycle" the Beatties, pere et fils, decided was right for their wife and mother, and even older in provenance than my Kranich: the Pedersen of 1893, still in production and with the largest producer recently taken over by Utopia, and of course further developed. I considered a Pedersen seriously in the time of the previous German manufacturer, Kalle Kalkhoff, who was himself no slacker in the punctilio department, but each time I looked at it, I was stumped by the leg-over problem. The Locomotief designer who created the Unisex de Luxe back in 1935 was clearly influenced by the ladies version of the Pedersen.

Some Pedersens in America:
http://pedersenbicycles.com/gallery.htm
and on this page the last of the Kalkhoff Pedersens at pretty good prices with Shimano seven and eight speed boxes, including at least one suitable for tall people, with a two-year Utopia warranty -- their own bikes are warranted ten years, so arrive at your own conclusion -- :
https://www.pedersen-velo.de/vertrie...-sonderpreise/

Of course, for ninety-nine per cent of cyclists "innovation" means a garish paint job on a deadly dull diamond frame. And the dumb, the perennially unlucky, the mathematically challenged, and the poor are right to stick to diamond frames. It's difficult for a designer to go wrong with a diamond frame, though it does happen. The harshest bike I ever had was a steel diamond-framed Peugeot Paris; it killed my back and bought my physio a big new BMW; the designer got the tube sizes and weights wrong.


For ninety-nine percent of cyclists who actually ride more than 10 miles a week, innovation does not mean a boat-anchor bike from the turn of the 20th century pulled from the ash-heap of discarded designs.

As Lou noted, the cyclists in NL seem to be trending toward low entry e-bikes, e.g. https://tinyurl.com/y6gzuwbn Wickedly expensive for a Class 1 ebike, and my wife didn't particularly like the way it rode. She much preferred the Specialzed Turbo Como -- more guts and more comfortable.

Most people without a disability are content with a DF bike. I'm going to put a dropper post on the Vado and see if that does the trick for my wife. If not, we'll hold out for the Como, but Specialized is out of stock -- for a long while. Everybody is out of everything these days.

-- Jay Beattie.






  #23  
Old September 21st 20, 07:46 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Posts: 10,422
Default eBike News

On Monday, September 21, 2020 at 4:08:41 AM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 20, 2020 at 4:59:59 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, September 20, 2020 at 2:35:38 PM UTC+1, Sepp Ruf wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
Wait, something's amiss: Nobody mentioned recumbents!

You may be old enough to be grateful to sit down on a recumbent, but if
you're on RBT it is almost guaranteed that you aren't young enough to
stand up again from a recumbent.
Almost.
It's a steel!
https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/utopia-kranich-damenrad-retro-sammlerstueck-raritaet-28-zoll/1494211544-217-4350


Not bad for a bike first designed in 1935, first sold to the public in
1936.

Andre Jute No fashion victims here
Below is another mid-late 1990's build, probably in even better shape.. Add
the guy's Grundig radio on top, get a pair of non-petrified brake pads, pay
500 euros, and even a fashion victim like Beattie junior could receive
selfie requests from shy Mormon cheerleader girls and nods of approval from
white-haired Lohas Portlanders -- until he spectacularly falls off the bike
because he forgot there's coaster brake.
https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/utopia-fahrrad-moewe-7-gang-nabenschaltung-28-/1475927220-217-1556


"Shy Mormon cheerleader girls" forward enough to ask the opposite sex for selfies, that's surely that rare creature, a double oxymoron.

The bike in the ad is not a Kranich but a ladies' version of the Moewe. One of the small snobberies of being a Utopia owner is distinguishing bikes with pretty much the same profile and, in this case, plan too. The main difference is that the Mowe was built with near-off-the-shelf Columbus tubes, while the modern Kranich is built with custom-drawn tubes. I have no idea whether it makes a difference. Maybe in like for like bikes it might save a few ounces, but the modern Kranich frame and fittings are so much wider that I'm sure the weight gain is lost again in the various crosswise pieces which are now longer. It is enough that one has a bike built by obsessives who do nothing without a reason, and when they have a reason do not ask irrelevant accounting questions but just do it regardless. I'm such a person too, so I'm in perfect sympathy with my bike and its makers -- I've kept my Kranich for ten years now, while none of my other bikes lasted longer than two years.

I'll tell you what else is weirder than the "bicycle" the Beatties, pere et fils, decided was right for their wife and mother, and even older in provenance than my Kranich: the Pedersen of 1893, still in production and with the largest producer recently taken over by Utopia, and of course further developed. I considered a Pedersen seriously in the time of the previous German manufacturer, Kalle Kalkhoff, who was himself no slacker in the punctilio department, but each time I looked at it, I was stumped by the leg-over problem. The Locomotief designer who created the Unisex de Luxe back in 1935 was clearly influenced by the ladies version of the Pedersen.

Some Pedersens in America:
http://pedersenbicycles.com/gallery.htm
and on this page the last of the Kalkhoff Pedersens at pretty good prices with Shimano seven and eight speed boxes, including at least one suitable for tall people, with a two-year Utopia warranty -- their own bikes are warranted ten years, so arrive at your own conclusion -- :
https://www.pedersen-velo.de/vertrie...-sonderpreise/

Of course, for ninety-nine per cent of cyclists "innovation" means a garish paint job on a deadly dull diamond frame. And the dumb, the perennially unlucky, the mathematically challenged, and the poor are right to stick to diamond frames. It's difficult for a designer to go wrong with a diamond frame, though it does happen. The harshest bike I ever had was a steel diamond-framed Peugeot Paris; it killed my back and bought my physio a big new BMW; the designer got the tube sizes and weights wrong.


For ninety-nine percent of cyclists who actually ride more than 10 miles a week, innovation does not mean a boat-anchor bike


You mean like an electric bike that perforce weighs a great deal because batteries and motors just do?

from the turn of the 20th century pulled from the ash-heap of discarded designs.


I agree with you. The diamond frame is a design from the nineteenth century that I've discarded as inferior to a cross frame design for my purposes and lifestyle. But so what? You don't have to follow me, same way I didn't follow you into drop bars, another abomination to me, and probably a matter of principle to you.

As Lou noted, the cyclists in NL seem to be trending toward low entry e-bikes, e.g. https://tinyurl.com/y6gzuwbn


"Your search - gazelle ebikes - did not match any shopping results"

Too bad. I would really have liked to see what Gazelle makes that you condemn as:
Wickedly expensive for a Class 1 ebike, and my wife didn't particularly like the way it rode.


You can get Gazelle bike in Portland? Then WTF are you doing at Specialised, who are jumped-up boy racers, regardless of the fact that your son works there? Gazelle knows a thing or two about designing convenient, long-lasting bike. I have a Gazelle in the loft, a very agreeable bike. Photo at the reprint of my piece about it from the Irish Examiner at http://coolmainpress..com/BICYCLINGgazelletoulouse.html .

She much preferred the Specialzed Turbo Como -- more guts and more comfortable.


To a Gazelle or to whatever the Specialised you two geniuses put her on? You're losing me, Jay. Have judges recently started looking baffled and worried when you speak before them?

Most people without a disability are content with a DF bike. I'm going to put a dropper post on the Vado and see if that does the trick for my wife. If not, we'll hold out for the Como,


Does it have a low stepover and hub gears? Those are minimum requirements of an electric bike for a lady.

Let me give you some more advice, which I don't imagine you'll listen to until this affair has become an expensive education for you. I'm used to calculating power requirements for racing automobiles and I know a good deal about electrics from my time designing high-voltage high-fidelity gear. My first electric motor offered 250W and I thought that was a fair deal of oomph.. Moreover, it was a descendant of a Bafang motor known for its large dollop of hillclimbing torque, which accounts for it being nicknamed "The Street-Legal BPM", but still I bought it in full knowledge of the fact that I would probably burn it out. In less than 4000km I did burn it out, but I thought it served well, and so bought a 350W motor, also Bafang, which still serves faithfully, and has just the right mix of power to be docile in town traffic and not to strain on the hills in both the town and the countryside. It's nicely matched to me and my environment. I don't understand why Americans have to have a full horsepower or more in their motors; it just makes the bicycle dangerous. I fitted the motor and controls myself in less than an hour. My electrified bike has a fourteen-speed Rohloff gearbox, but the motor controls have another nine "gears", which I reduced to five in the electronics software, so the bottom seven gears of my Rohloff rarely get used. A high-torque bicycle motor like the Bafang centre motors would rip apart a Shimano gearbox if carelessly used, so the minimum hub gearbox for an electrified bike to be used in hilly country is probably a CVT NuVinci, in which you can also get automatic gear changing, much like I have on my "Smover" Trek.

but Specialized is out of stock -- for a long while. Everybody is out of everything these days.


First the pandemic, and then Christmas coming up, both high water marks for bicycle makers. Inconvenient for real cyclists.

-- Jay Beattie.


Andre Jute
Goodwill to all men, except motons
  #24  
Old September 21st 20, 05:19 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,318
Default eBike News

On Friday, September 18, 2020 at 6:52:02 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Friday, September 18, 2020 at 10:44:58 AM UTC+1, Sepp Ruf wrote:
Lou Holtman wrote:
Op vrijdag 18 september 2020 om 02:31:59 UTC+2 schreef jbeattie:
On 9/16/2020 5:45 PM, jbeattie wrote:
I got my wife an eBike for her birthday via my son at Specialized.
Box arrived yesterday, and I about herniated myself getting it into
the garage. One of these:
https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear...o-vado-reivew/
I had no idea it was a Buycycling Editor's choice, but I'll go with
it. Being family, I got employee pricing -- otherwise it would have
been a harder choice. Even the bottom of the range is expensive,
but it is a nice bike.

There were some odd-ball assembly issues, and I still have to
update the firmware (which is like a huge thing because you want
the latest performance advantages!), but it went together fine.
Lots of bells (literally) and whistles.

My wife is 5'10" (or used to be), so my son sized her as a large,
which is fine for saddle to pedal distance, but the tire height/BB
makes the stand-over high, even with a sloping top-tube. The thing
is like a mini-motorcycle. She has some neuro/ortho conditions that
affect her mobility, but she seems to be fine swinging her leg over
the saddle and off the bike. She doesn't complain, which is
sometimes a problem. "Oh its fine [followed by catastrophe]." I do
worry about the size of the thing, though.

On max setting, the bike is super fast with a top speed of 28mph.
I'm going to throw on a QR seatpost clamp so I can use it for
shopping. You would need a truck to steal it, and it has a
kickstand and a really swanky little rack. The future is now! My
son is trying to get me interested in the mega-zillion dollar 22lb
stealth eBikes -- so I can keep up with him, but I would need a
winning lottery ticket, even at employee pricing.

In another small bicycle-world twist, my son tells me I'll need a
hitch rack tray that my wife can roll the bike onto -- made by
Yakima. So I walk down the street and ask my neighbor and best
bicycling buddy -- who is head of products for Yakima and happened
to be working in his yard, for a rack. Its on the way. Life is
good.
I was flying around on it last night. The dismount is troubling for my
wife. I may see if I can exchange the bike for a step-through. My son
is trying to get me to go with a dropper post, but I'm not sold on
that, but I'll do some more experimenting to see if that could be a
fix. I just don't want my wife getting her leg hung up swinging it over
the saddle.

My poor wife was a spectacular racer back in the day and a great tandem
motor, but she was hit with a neuro-muscular disorder and has wires in
her brain to make her stand more upright (DBS for dystonia). She also
broke a hip skiing, or it simply broke while skiing -- who knows.
Anyway, she is still lean and mean and walks all over the place, but
she's held together with screws and wires. The last thing I want is for
her to get mugged by her bike. She's tired of hospitals, as is the rest
of the family. Between all three of us, we probably have ten pounds of
titanium parts.

IMHO, the more ebike riders are old, fat, or frail, the better for
Real_Cycling. So I should applaud the Turbo Vado choice. But sometimes, I
feel compassionate even for coastal lawyer wifes.

Who selected that ebike for her? If it was your son, ban him from giving
bike advice to old or handicapped people! Or at least have him pay for it.
That sloped diamond frame (L is standard with 175mm cranks) sounds wrong
for her size and dismounting issues.
That is too bad. Do your wife a favor and get her a step through frame. I
think that would even for me the way to go when I'm ready for an utility
E bike. This is a popular model around here at the moment:

https://www.gazelle.nl/ultimate-t10-...07%2C211%2C184

Agreed. (Interesting that the Turbo-Vado sports a longer front fender than
a Dutch brand.)

Or give in to AJ's Utopia propaganda, go feminine, extravagant, craft frame
style, and show battery pride instead of trying to "hide" the electron tank
in a blown-up downtube outline.
https://www.utopia-velo.de/en/pedelec/sprint-pedelec/

Here's the trick: If she is afraid of looking old because of a step-thru
geometry, ask her if this truly awful frame shape makes the model look old:
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/iwMAA...8HM/s-l800.jpg

I wrote a long post identifying each of the problems of that bike that the two counterproductive Beatties (father and son) chose for the wife and mother*. I didn't send it because I saw no point in draining the glee from Jay's day, despite his and Krygowski's constant crap about my supposed clunker -- which has a frame lighter than their best road bikes. If they could afford a bike like mine, I'd have to join the end of the waiting list because they be muscling in rudely. Oh, wait, Jay spent near German baukast money for an entirely unsuitable bike for his wife... I'm starting to think these Americans aren't so much foolish as ignorant.

I'm sorry about Mrs Beattie's misfortune.

Andre Jute
There are low stopover bikes for a reason. European bikes have properly braced racks for a reason. Etc. Etc. Etc.

*I didn't think I would ever see a greater mismatch of a bicycle to its intended rider than the Paramount idiocy that the RBT xenophobes wished on me, described at
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicy...m/I18KpJSsCQAJ
but Jay's just taken the prize for that one.

At the time of that posting all I remembered about Waterford was that they had built the PDG series of Schwinn Paramounts and while those bikes were as good a steel bike as you could get at the time I soon discovered that they presently still build modern Waterford's that are almost the weight of carbon fiber bikes.

One of the weaknesses of people is that they will say, "Carbon Fiber bikes are dangerous and can fall apart". That is really not the case, properly made it requires a collision to break them and frames made from all other materials that are built that lightly for UCI events are also totally destroyed under such "testing". Also, bikes have dropped down to the point where making them lighter makes such a minor change to the rider/bike combination that you cannot detect differences in climbing ability unless you are a pro climber.
  #25  
Old September 21st 20, 07:26 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Lou Holtman[_5_]
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Posts: 826
Default eBike News

Op maandag 21 september 2020 om 18:19:18 UTC+2 schreef :
On Friday, September 18, 2020 at 6:52:02 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Friday, September 18, 2020 at 10:44:58 AM UTC+1, Sepp Ruf wrote:
Lou Holtman wrote:
Op vrijdag 18 september 2020 om 02:31:59 UTC+2 schreef jbeattie:
On 9/16/2020 5:45 PM, jbeattie wrote:
I got my wife an eBike for her birthday via my son at Specialized.
Box arrived yesterday, and I about herniated myself getting it into
the garage. One of these:
https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear...o-vado-reivew/
I had no idea it was a Buycycling Editor's choice, but I'll go with
it. Being family, I got employee pricing -- otherwise it would have
been a harder choice. Even the bottom of the range is expensive,
but it is a nice bike.

There were some odd-ball assembly issues, and I still have to
update the firmware (which is like a huge thing because you want
the latest performance advantages!), but it went together fine.
Lots of bells (literally) and whistles.

My wife is 5'10" (or used to be), so my son sized her as a large,
which is fine for saddle to pedal distance, but the tire height/BB
makes the stand-over high, even with a sloping top-tube. The thing
is like a mini-motorcycle. She has some neuro/ortho conditions that
affect her mobility, but she seems to be fine swinging her leg over
the saddle and off the bike. She doesn't complain, which is
sometimes a problem. "Oh its fine [followed by catastrophe]." I do
worry about the size of the thing, though.

On max setting, the bike is super fast with a top speed of 28mph..
I'm going to throw on a QR seatpost clamp so I can use it for
shopping. You would need a truck to steal it, and it has a
kickstand and a really swanky little rack. The future is now! My
son is trying to get me interested in the mega-zillion dollar 22lb
stealth eBikes -- so I can keep up with him, but I would need a
winning lottery ticket, even at employee pricing.

In another small bicycle-world twist, my son tells me I'll need a
hitch rack tray that my wife can roll the bike onto -- made by
Yakima. So I walk down the street and ask my neighbor and best
bicycling buddy -- who is head of products for Yakima and happened
to be working in his yard, for a rack. Its on the way. Life is
good.
I was flying around on it last night. The dismount is troubling for my
wife. I may see if I can exchange the bike for a step-through. My son
is trying to get me to go with a dropper post, but I'm not sold on
that, but I'll do some more experimenting to see if that could be a
fix. I just don't want my wife getting her leg hung up swinging it over
the saddle.

My poor wife was a spectacular racer back in the day and a great tandem
motor, but she was hit with a neuro-muscular disorder and has wires in
her brain to make her stand more upright (DBS for dystonia). She also
broke a hip skiing, or it simply broke while skiing -- who knows.
Anyway, she is still lean and mean and walks all over the place, but
she's held together with screws and wires. The last thing I want is for
her to get mugged by her bike. She's tired of hospitals, as is the rest
of the family. Between all three of us, we probably have ten pounds of
titanium parts.
IMHO, the more ebike riders are old, fat, or frail, the better for
Real_Cycling. So I should applaud the Turbo Vado choice. But sometimes, I
feel compassionate even for coastal lawyer wifes.

Who selected that ebike for her? If it was your son, ban him from giving
bike advice to old or handicapped people! Or at least have him pay for it.
That sloped diamond frame (L is standard with 175mm cranks) sounds wrong
for her size and dismounting issues.
That is too bad. Do your wife a favor and get her a step through frame. I
think that would even for me the way to go when I'm ready for an utility
E bike. This is a popular model around here at the moment:

https://www.gazelle.nl/ultimate-t10-...07%2C211%2C184
Agreed. (Interesting that the Turbo-Vado sports a longer front fender than
a Dutch brand.)

Or give in to AJ's Utopia propaganda, go feminine, extravagant, craft frame
style, and show battery pride instead of trying to "hide" the electron tank
in a blown-up downtube outline.
https://www.utopia-velo.de/en/pedelec/sprint-pedelec/

Here's the trick: If she is afraid of looking old because of a step-thru
geometry, ask her if this truly awful frame shape makes the model look old:
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/iwMAA...8HM/s-l800.jpg

I wrote a long post identifying each of the problems of that bike that the two counterproductive Beatties (father and son) chose for the wife and mother*. I didn't send it because I saw no point in draining the glee from Jay's day, despite his and Krygowski's constant crap about my supposed clunker -- which has a frame lighter than their best road bikes. If they could afford a bike like mine, I'd have to join the end of the waiting list because they be muscling in rudely. Oh, wait, Jay spent near German baukast money for an entirely unsuitable bike for his wife... I'm starting to think these Americans aren't so much foolish as ignorant.

I'm sorry about Mrs Beattie's misfortune.

Andre Jute
There are low stopover bikes for a reason. European bikes have properly braced racks for a reason. Etc. Etc. Etc.

*I didn't think I would ever see a greater mismatch of a bicycle to its intended rider than the Paramount idiocy that the RBT xenophobes wished on me, described at
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicy...m/I18KpJSsCQAJ
but Jay's just taken the prize for that one.

At the time of that posting all I remembered about Waterford was that they had built the PDG series of Schwinn Paramounts and while those bikes were as good a steel bike as you could get at the time I soon discovered that they presently still build modern Waterford's that are almost the weight of carbon fiber bikes.

One of the weaknesses of people is that they will say, "Carbon Fiber bikes are dangerous and can fall apart". That is really not the case, properly made it requires a collision to break them and frames made from all other materials that are built that lightly for UCI events are also totally destroyed under such "testing". Also, bikes have dropped down to the point where making them lighter makes such a minor change to the rider/bike combination that you cannot detect differences in climbing ability unless you are a pro climber.



Two weeks ago I was in the mountains climbing. Before I left I weighed bike and myself, both in riding condition. There is a 10 km climb with an almost constant grade; about 7%.:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/oTwizyDjQ59vMX2p9
I resetted my Garmin at the bottom of the climb. At the top I looked at the average power I managed and I calculated my climbing time within 30 seconds accuracy from the average power and weight.

Lou
  #26  
Old September 22nd 20, 02:58 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default eBike News

On 9/21/2020 2:26 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:

Two weeks ago I was in the mountains climbing. Before I left I weighed bike and myself, both in riding condition. There is a 10 km climb with an almost constant grade; about 7%.:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/oTwizyDjQ59vMX2p9
I resetted my Garmin at the bottom of the climb. At the top I looked at the average power I managed and I calculated my climbing time within 30 seconds accuracy from the average power and weight.


I assume your calculations were done the simplest way, ignoring any aero
drag, right? Aero drag would be minimal at normal climbing speeds for a
7% grade.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #27  
Old September 22nd 20, 07:34 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Lou Holtman[_5_]
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Op dinsdag 22 september 2020 om 03:58:57 UTC+2 schreef Frank Krygowski:
On 9/21/2020 2:26 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:

Two weeks ago I was in the mountains climbing. Before I left I weighed bike and myself, both in riding condition. There is a 10 km climb with an almost constant grade; about 7%.:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/oTwizyDjQ59vMX2p9
I resetted my Garmin at the bottom of the climb. At the top I looked at the average power I managed and I calculated my climbing time within 30 seconds accuracy from the average power and weight.

I assume your calculations were done the simplest way, ignoring any aero
drag, right? Aero drag would be minimal at normal climbing speeds for a
7% grade.


--
- Frank Krygowski



Yes simple calculation. I assumed 20 Watts rolling resistance. No aero drag at speeds of 10-12 km/hr.

Lou
  #28  
Old September 22nd 20, 12:41 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
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On Monday, September 21, 2020 at 5:19:18 PM UTC+1, wrote:

One of the weaknesses of people is that they will say, "Carbon Fiber bikes are dangerous and can fall apart". That is really not the case, properly made it requires a collision to break them and frames made from all other materials that are built that lightly for UCI events are also totally destroyed under such "testing". Also, bikes have dropped down to the point where making them lighter makes such a minor change to the rider/bike combination that you cannot detect differences in climbing ability unless you are a pro climber.


I don't have a carbon bike and don't intend buying one. I'm happy with my steel bike, though I haven't always been happy with steel bikes. I do agree though that carbon bikes have had time to grow up. However, if I had chosen a carbon bike ten years ago, I suspect I'd be on the nth new one now following impact breakages, rather than still happily on the same steel bike.

Andre Jute
Neanderthal
  #29  
Old September 22nd 20, 03:37 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Ralph Barone[_4_]
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Lou Holtman wrote:
Op dinsdag 22 september 2020 om 03:58:57 UTC+2 schreef Frank Krygowski:
On 9/21/2020 2:26 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:

Two weeks ago I was in the mountains climbing. Before I left I weighed
bike and myself, both in riding condition. There is a 10 km climb with
an almost constant grade; about 7%.:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/oTwizyDjQ59vMX2p9
I resetted my Garmin at the bottom of the climb. At the top I looked at
the average power I managed and I calculated my climbing time within 30
seconds accuracy from the average power and weight.

I assume your calculations were done the simplest way, ignoring any aero
drag, right? Aero drag would be minimal at normal climbing speeds for a
7% grade.


--
- Frank Krygowski



Yes simple calculation. I assumed 20 Watts rolling resistance. No aero
drag at speeds of 10-12 km/hr.

Lou


As a really rough estimate, I take sustained speed x % grade as an
indication of power (in really weird units, of course). It’s good enough
to show that I’m sitting around 60% of my previous fitness after falling
off the wagon for a year.

  #30  
Old September 22nd 20, 05:07 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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On 9/22/2020 10:37 AM, Ralph Barone wrote:
Lou Holtman wrote:
Op dinsdag 22 september 2020 om 03:58:57 UTC+2 schreef Frank Krygowski:
On 9/21/2020 2:26 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:

Two weeks ago I was in the mountains climbing. Before I left I weighed
bike and myself, both in riding condition. There is a 10 km climb with
an almost constant grade; about 7%.:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/oTwizyDjQ59vMX2p9
I resetted my Garmin at the bottom of the climb. At the top I looked at
the average power I managed and I calculated my climbing time within 30
seconds accuracy from the average power and weight.
I assume your calculations were done the simplest way, ignoring any aero
drag, right? Aero drag would be minimal at normal climbing speeds for a
7% grade.


--
- Frank Krygowski



Yes simple calculation. I assumed 20 Watts rolling resistance. No aero
drag at speeds of 10-12 km/hr.

Lou


As a really rough estimate, I take sustained speed x % grade as an
indication of power (in really weird units, of course).


Note that to give good accuracy, the calculation doesn't require inputs
regarding number or spacing of gears, frame stiffness, type of shifters,
type of pedals or even color of paint. (Despite the fact that red bikes
are obviously faster.)

Yet those factors and others are claimed to make bikes much faster.


--
- Frank Krygowski
 




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