#21
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LBS owner's essay
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/1/2020 5:48 PM, Sepp Ruf wrote: AMuzi wrote: On Friday, July 31, 2020 at 5:45:42 PM UTC-7, sms wrote: When I needed a replacement 10.5mm x 26 TPI nut for an SRAM 3x7 hub Anyone surprised that SMS did not care to look up the part# or the specs in the SRAM manuals? SRAM Part # 65 0516 003 100 Axle Nut FG10,5 65 0516 107 000 Axle Cap Nut FG10,5 I first drove to 4 local shops. Forget it. One shop knew what I was talking about at least. Ordered it from YOUR shop. I wasn't trying to save money by ordering it, I just wanted the darn part and no LBS could help me. Later I found one LBS that had the "close enough" 13/32 x 26 TPI Sturmey-Archer axle nuts (that shop is now out of business). Because SMS, the pathetically cheap Walmart + China shopper, and his "smart" constituents, assume that an LBS can survive on selling a few, somewhat exotic, axle nuts a year, preferably stocked, to lazy cagers who smugly feel as if they are "supporting their LBS" by their grandiose spare nut purchases? Neither a 1.0 metric nor a 26tpi gauge fits exactly on those axles and Sachs/SRAM doesn't state the thread. Even if you decided that 'something close' would do, there are no m11x1.0 nuts in common use anywhere, not autos, not McMaster-Carr or what have you. From the SRAM techmanual gearhubsystems pdf (archive): Axle - Ends Diameter - FG 10,5 (FG = Fahrradgewinde) Your old Winkler-Rauch (book) has all the data on it: Steigung 0,977; Flankenwinkel 60°; Außendurchmesser 10,444; Flankendurchmesser 9,924; Kerndurchmesser 9,404; Gangzahl pro Zoll 26; Gewindetiefe 0,520; Gewinderundung 0,163 I do think it's strange that they settled on non-standard threading for such a simple part. Despite claims, it can't be for reasons of strength. Just because Frank Krygowski (or some lean-brained, Chicago corn trader MBA bozo at SRAM, excuse my Polish), "thinks" a part is non-standard does not mean it really is not. Andrew, any clue why they would have done that? When they decided that the usual, thinner FG9,5 rear hub axles weren't strong enough for the growing O.L.D. of gear hubs, somewhere past the 2sp IGH era. Vaguely related: I'm in the habit of stripping fasteners or other potentially useful bits out of devices I'm discarding. So I've got several small drawers of 1/4-20 sorted by length, a small drawer of 5mmx0.8 stuff, one of 6mmx1, etc. And I've got a small drawer marked "Metric Misc." which is mostly fasteners that really shouldn't exist. They don't fit any standard I can find. As mentioned above, it might not be the (British, or DIN 79012, or whatever) standards' fault. https://www.fahrradmonteur.de/Fahrradgewinde |
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#22
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LBS owner's essay
On 8/2/2020 2:25 AM, Sepp Ruf wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/1/2020 5:48 PM, Sepp Ruf wrote: AMuzi wrote: On Friday, July 31, 2020 at 5:45:42 PM UTC-7, sms wrote: When I needed a replacement 10.5mm x 26 TPI nut for an SRAM 3x7 hub Anyone surprised that SMS did not care to look up the part# or the specs in the SRAM manuals? SRAM Part # 65 0516 003 100 Axle Nut FG10,5 65 0516 107 000 Axle Cap Nut FG10,5 I first drove to 4 local shops. Forget it. One shop knew what I was talking about at least. Ordered it from YOUR shop. I wasn't trying to save money by ordering it, I just wanted the darn part and no LBS could help me. Later I found one LBS that had the "close enough" 13/32 x 26 TPI Sturmey-Archer axle nuts (that shop is now out of business). Because SMS, the pathetically cheap Walmart + China shopper, and his "smart" constituents, assume that an LBS can survive on selling a few, somewhat exotic, axle nuts a year, preferably stocked, to lazy cagers who smugly feel as if they are "supporting their LBS" by their grandiose spare nut purchases? Neither a 1.0 metric nor a 26tpi gauge fits exactly on those axles and Sachs/SRAM doesn't state the thread. Even if you decided that 'something close' would do, there are no m11x1.0 nuts in common use anywhere, not autos, not McMaster-Carr or what have you. From the SRAM techmanual gearhubsystems pdf (archive): Axle - Ends Diameter - FG 10,5 (FG = Fahrradgewinde) Your old Winkler-Rauch (book) has all the data on it: Steigung 0,977; Flankenwinkel 60°; Außendurchmesser 10,444; Flankendurchmesser 9,924; Kerndurchmesser 9,404; Gangzahl pro Zoll 26; Gewindetiefe 0,520; Gewinderundung 0,163 I do think it's strange that they settled on non-standard threading for such a simple part. Despite claims, it can't be for reasons of strength. Just because Frank Krygowski (or some lean-brained, Chicago corn trader MBA bozo at SRAM, excuse my Polish), "thinks" a part is non-standard does not mean it really is not. I've got no problem with non-standard _parts_. I do have a problem with non-standard _threads_. Threading standards have been pretty stable for many, many decades. Andrew, any clue why they would have done that? When they decided that the usual, thinner FG9,5 rear hub axles weren't strong enough for the growing O.L.D. of gear hubs, somewhere past the 2sp IGH era. So was there a specific reason they couldn't go with 12mm threads? (See "Preferred Sizes" at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_metric_screw_thread I recently worked on an old Shimano 3 speed hub. The left side of the axle had a larger diameter where it entered the hub, and a smaller diameter where it passed through the dropouts. I assume this is for adequate strength at the bearing, yet fitting standard dropouts. Of course, these days "standard dropout" is probably an archaic term. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#23
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LBS owner's essay
On 8/1/2020 6:12 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/1/2020 5:48 PM, Sepp Ruf wrote: AMuzi wrote: On Friday, July 31, 2020 at 5:45:42 PM UTC-7, sms wrote: When I needed a replacement 10.5mm x 26 TPI nut for an SRAM 3x7 hub Anyone surprised that SMS did not care to look up the part# or the specs in the SRAM manuals? SRAM Part # 65 0516 003 100 Axle Nut FG10,5 65 0516 107 000 Axle Cap Nut FG10,5 I first drove to 4 local shops. Forget it. One shop knew what I was talking about at least. Ordered it from YOUR shop. I wasn't trying to save money by ordering it, I just wanted the darn part and no LBS could help me. Later I found one LBS that had the "close enough" 13/32 x 26 TPI Sturmey-Archer axle nuts (that shop is now out of business). Because SMS, the pathetically cheap Walmart + China shopper, and his "smart" constituents, assume that an LBS can survive on selling a few, somewhat exotic, axle nuts a year, preferably stocked, to lazy cagers who smugly feel as if they are "supporting their LBS" by their grandiose spare nut purchases? Neither a 1.0 metric nor a 26tpi gauge fits exactly on those axles and Sachs/SRAM doesn't state the thread. Even if you decided that 'something close' would do, there are no m11x1.0 nuts in common use anywhere, not autos, not McMaster-Carr or what have you. From the SRAM techmanual gearhubsystems pdf (archive): Axle - Ends Diameter - FG 10,5 (FG = Fahrradgewinde) Your old Winkler-Rauch (book) has all the data on it: Steigung 0,977; Flankenwinkel 60°; Außendurchmesser 10,444; Flankendurchmesser 9,924; Kerndurchmesser 9,404; Gangzahl pro Zoll 26; Gewindetiefe 0,520; Gewinderundung 0,163 I do think it's strange that they settled on non-standard threading for such a simple part. Despite claims, it can't be for reasons of strength. Andrew, any clue why they would have done that? Vaguely related: I'm in the habit of stripping fasteners or other potentially useful bits out of devices I'm discarding. So I've got several small drawers of 1/4-20 sorted by length, a small drawer of 5mmx0.8 stuff, one of 6mmx1, etc. And I've got a small drawer marked "Metric Misc." which is mostly fasteners that really shouldn't exist. They don't fit any standard I can find. - Frank Krygowski Japanese and German (JIS and DIN) metric m5 are 0.8 which are the overwhelming bulk of hardware now. French metric m5 are 0.9. There are more variants in other sizes and places. As Mr Brown noted, standards are wonderful, which is why we have so many. Lest you scorn 'them foreigners', AF/AC, UNF/UNC, SAE and so on. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#24
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LBS owner's essay
On 8/1/2020 2:48 PM, Sepp Ruf wrote:
snip Because SMS, the pathetically cheap Walmart + China shopper, and his "smart" constituents, assume that an LBS can survive on selling a few, somewhat exotic, axle nuts a year, preferably stocked, to lazy cagers who smugly feel as if they are "supporting their LBS" by their grandiose spare nut purchases? Wow, you're really a piece of work. It's _because_ I know that most LBSes can't be bothered to sell esoteric parts and accessories that I have no problem ordering them Yellow Jersey or from eBay sellers (there was one eBay seller, Aaron's Bicycle Repair, which specializes in internal hub repair, that also sold that particular nut for way more than Andrew charged). I think that it's great that a brick and mortar store also has a robust online business, it's a great way for them to survive. By the same token, an LBS that doesn't stock things like axle nuts which have been used on a LOT of bicycles, really can't complain about a customer getting into the habit of assuming that the shop has little interest in anything than selling current-model bicycles, clothing, and whatever the highest margin accessories are. We had a local store that was a Trek Tied Shop. It was really annoying to go in there to buy accessories because almost everything they sold was one of Trek's brands and these were rarely the best product in that category. If I wanted a Blackburn rack they insisted that the Trek rack was better. If I wanted a Cateye light, they insisted that the Trek light was better. If I wanted Schwalbe tires then they insisted Bontrager was better. It was like listening to a car salesman. I ordered a replacement wheel there once, and it came from QBP and they didn't even look at it prior to handing it to me. When I asked if they had checked it to see if it was true they looked annoyed but they took it back to the shop to true it. That store closed about three years ago. I doubt if any LBS is upset about people ordering items that most LBSes would not be interested in stocking because they sell in such low volumes and have so many different variations. Tom is probably now heading off to Ace Hardware where he will be in shock that they have no 10.5mm/26TPI nuts. For complete bicycles of course I buy them from an LBS. Looking back at my bicycle-purchasing history since being out on my own, 15 bicycles purchased from LBS or store with full service bicycle department, 3 direct from the manufacturer. Disclaimer: in college, around 1975, I did purchase a 3 speed Columbia bicycle from Woolco (Woolworth's) department store. |
#25
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LBS owner's essay
On 8/1/2020 2:52 PM, AMuzi wrote:
snip The unique axle thread discussed here is on Sachs Super Seven and P5 besides other products: http://www.yellowjersey.org/suprsevn.html I thought that the SRAM Dual Drive was a very elegant design, especially suited for folding bicycles. You could get full range of gears without the need for a front derailleur. Now, with 11 x 1 and 12 x 1 gearing there's less of a need for that level of expense and complexity, though on small-wheeled folders there would still be an advantage. |
#26
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LBS owner's essay
On 8/1/2020 6:10 PM, jbeattie wrote:
snip Really, you expect a shop to carry an axle bolt that is rare even on the interweb? I could understand your complaint if they didn't have a standard inner-tube, but I would expect a shop to order some Dodo bird part from the manufacturer or some distributor and not keeping it in stock, waiting for that one guy with a SRAM leisure hub -- who somehow LOST a hub nut -- to come into the shop. Its not like a wear item. Because it was widely used I would expect a long-time store to have some in their shop. Andrew's store had them. And to be fair, at least Off-Ramp had the somewhat compatible Sturmey-Archer nuts that Sheldon said could be used in a pinch. But the point I was making is that an LBS can't get upset when you order stuff online that they have no interest in selling anyway. |
#27
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LBS owner's essay
On 8/1/2020 6:41 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, August 1, 2020 at 6:10:38 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote: snip Really, you expect a shop to carry an axle bolt that is rare even on the interweb? I could understand your complaint if they didn't have a standard inner-tube, but I would expect a shop to order some Dodo bird part from the manufacturer or some distributor and not keeping it in stock, waiting for that one guy with a SRAM leisure hub -- who somehow LOST a hub nut -- to come into the shop. Its not like a wear item. -- Jay Beattie. Make that an axle nut. Didn't lose it. It was cracked. |
#28
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LBS owner's essay
On Sunday, August 2, 2020 at 12:27:11 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 8/1/2020 6:41 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Saturday, August 1, 2020 at 6:10:38 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote: snip Really, you expect a shop to carry an axle bolt that is rare even on the interweb? I could understand your complaint if they didn't have a standard inner-tube, but I would expect a shop to order some Dodo bird part from the manufacturer or some distributor and not keeping it in stock, waiting for that one guy with a SRAM leisure hub -- who somehow LOST a hub nut -- to come into the shop. Its not like a wear item. -- Jay Beattie. Make that an axle nut. Didn't lose it. It was cracked. So its a P[OS] axle nut to boot. I would have made whatever shop sold you the bike warranty it. Where did you get the bike? Write them a threatening letter on your mayor letterhead claiming that you could have died from a catastrophic nut failure. They'll probably send you a whole new bike. Every time I hear your stories, I wonder if you're hallucinating or if the whole SCV bike culture has gone down the toilet. When I lived down there, San Jose had all sorts of scary old bike shops where you could buy odd-ball nuts and bolts. What about Cupertino Bikes? You're mayor of the GD town, and they're using your name. Wheel Away? They've been around forever. Palo Alto? Back when I lived there, we had scary old Faber's Cyclery for all the old parts -- which apparently burned down, probably fueled by a lot of old parts and dust. -- Jay Beattie. |
#29
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LBS owner's essay
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/2/2020 2:25 AM, Sepp Ruf wrote: Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/1/2020 5:48 PM, Sepp Ruf wrote: AMuzi wrote: Neither a 1.0 metric nor a 26tpi gauge fits exactly on those axles and Sachs/SRAM doesn't state the thread. Even if you decided that 'something close' would do, there are no m11x1.0 nuts in common use anywhere, not autos, not McMaster-Carr or what have you. From the SRAM techmanual gearhubsystems pdf (archive): Axle - Ends Diameter - FG 10,5 (FG = Fahrradgewinde) Your old Winkler-Rauch (book) has all the data on it: Steigung 0,977; Flankenwinkel 60°; Außendurchmesser 10,444; Flankendurchmesser 9,924; Kerndurchmesser 9,404; Gangzahl pro Zoll 26; Gewindetiefe 0,520; Gewinderundung 0,163 I do think it's strange that they settled on non-standard threading for such a simple part. Despite claims, it can't be for reasons of strength. Just because Frank Krygowski (or some lean-brained, Chicago corn trader MBA bozo at SRAM, excuse my Polish), "thinks" a part is non-standard does not mean it really is not. I've got no problem with non-standard _parts_. I do have a problem with non-standard _threads_. Threading standards have been pretty stable for many, many decades. FG threads, whether they are copies of British threads or not, were around decades earlier than post-WW2 ISO. [] any clue why they would have done that? When they decided that the usual, thinner FG9,5 rear hub axles weren't strong enough for the growing O.L.D. of gear hubs, somewhere past the 2sp IGH era. That was at least inaccurate. I just looked at a technical drawing of a 1930's 2sp Torpedo hub with FG9,5 on the left, and FG10,5 on the right side which includes the connection from the cable to the internal shifting mechanism. So was there a specific reason they couldn't go with 12mm threads? (See "Preferred Sizes" at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_metric_screw_thread Why would they? In the 1920's, did anyone engineer to facilitate sourcing a million nuts from the lowest Asian bidder? I recently worked on an old Shimano 3 speed hub. The left side of the axle had a larger diameter where it entered the hub, and a smaller diameter where it passed through the dropouts. I assume this is for adequate strength at the bearing, yet fitting standard dropouts. Don't remind me of the next scheduled Shimano Nexus gear bath! |
#30
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LBS owner's essay
On Sun, 02 Aug 2020 12:25:49 -0700, sms wrote:
Because it was widely used I would expect a long-time store to have some in their shop. sadly, some parts are just not economical for them to stock. Andrew's store had them. And to be fair, at least Off-Ramp had the somewhat compatible Sturmey-Archer nuts that Sheldon said could be used in a pinch. But the point I was making is that an LBS can't get upset when you order stuff online that they have no interest in selling anyway. For me, it s 27" tubes and tyres. All the local BS have moved to only stocking whatever the latest fashion is. |
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