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Chain Waxing Followup



 
 
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  #1  
Old April 10th 06, 01:34 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Default Chain Waxing Followup

I just rewaxed (with pure paraffin) my chain and post the following
observations:

1) I got about 900 (898 to be exact) miles between waxings this time
(I didn't keep detailed notes of my prior waxing frequency, but
guessed I got upwards of 700 miles between waxings.)

2) All miles were ridden on pavement and none in the rain.

3) During the last couple hundred miles or so I would get some
occasional squeaking during the last half of longer rides (40+ miles),
but would not hear any squeaking on rides that were shorter. I don't
know why.

HarryB
PS: I am uninterested in hearing about why hot waxing a chain doesn't
"work." I'm simply posting this as an FYI.
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  #2  
Old April 10th 06, 01:55 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Default Chain Waxing Followup

On Sun, 09 Apr 2006 19:34:25 -0500, HarryB wrote:

I just rewaxed (with pure paraffin) my chain and post the following
observations:

1) I got about 900 (898 to be exact) miles between waxings this time
(I didn't keep detailed notes of my prior waxing frequency, but
guessed I got upwards of 700 miles between waxings.)

2) All miles were ridden on pavement and none in the rain.

3) During the last couple hundred miles or so I would get some
occasional squeaking during the last half of longer rides (40+ miles),
but would not hear any squeaking on rides that were shorter. I don't
know why.

HarryB
PS: I am uninterested in hearing about why hot waxing a chain doesn't
"work." I'm simply posting this as an FYI.


If you have the capability to measure chain wear easily, adding that
data would be very helpful.
--
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  #3  
Old April 10th 06, 02:08 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Default Chain Waxing Followup

PS: I am uninterested in hearing about why hot waxing a chain doesn't
"work." I'm simply posting this as an FYI.


The issue with hot waxing a chain isn't about protecting the chain or
squeaking, but rather shifting performance. I can't tell you how many "hot
waxers" (which were especially prevalent in the 90s, for whatever reason)
would come in complaining their bikes weren't shifting well. We'd re-lube
the chain with more-conventional products, and voila, shifting problem gone.
This repeated itself far too many times to be any sort of random thing.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"HarryB" wrote in message
...
I just rewaxed (with pure paraffin) my chain and post the following
observations:

1) I got about 900 (898 to be exact) miles between waxings this time
(I didn't keep detailed notes of my prior waxing frequency, but
guessed I got upwards of 700 miles between waxings.)

2) All miles were ridden on pavement and none in the rain.

3) During the last couple hundred miles or so I would get some
occasional squeaking during the last half of longer rides (40+ miles),
but would not hear any squeaking on rides that were shorter. I don't
know why.

HarryB
PS: I am uninterested in hearing about why hot waxing a chain doesn't
"work." I'm simply posting this as an FYI.



  #4  
Old April 10th 06, 03:38 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Chain Waxing Followup

In article ,
HarryB wrote:

I just rewaxed (with pure paraffin) my chain and post the following
observations:

1) I got about 900 (898 to be exact) miles between waxings this time
(I didn't keep detailed notes of my prior waxing frequency, but
guessed I got upwards of 700 miles between waxings.)

2) All miles were ridden on pavement and none in the rain.

3) During the last couple hundred miles or so I would get some
occasional squeaking during the last half of longer rides (40+ miles),
but would not hear any squeaking on rides that were shorter. I don't
know why.

HarryB
PS: I am uninterested in hearing about why hot waxing a chain doesn't
"work."


You have an odd way of showing it.

I'm simply posting this as an FYI.


--
Michael Press
  #5  
Old April 10th 06, 03:58 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Chain Waxing Followup


HarryB wrote:
I just rewaxed (with pure paraffin) my chain and post the following
observations:

1) I got about 900 (898 to be exact) miles between waxings this time
(I didn't keep detailed notes of my prior waxing frequency, but
guessed I got upwards of 700 miles between waxings.)

2) All miles were ridden on pavement and none in the rain.

3) During the last couple hundred miles or so I would get some
occasional squeaking during the last half of longer rides (40+ miles),
but would not hear any squeaking on rides that were shorter. I don't
know why.

HarryB
PS: I am uninterested in hearing about why hot waxing a chain doesn't
"work." I'm simply posting this as an FYI.



And have you experienced the allegedly common "shifting problems"?

  #6  
Old April 10th 06, 04:36 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Chain Waxing Followup

And have you experienced the allegedly common "shifting problems"?

There are a number of things that some might say "work" but don't work as
well as they could. If you don't know any better, does that make it fine? If
someone is willing to put up with less-than-optimal shifting in order to get
an unusual gear combination to work, does that mean it would be acceptable
to everyone?

We get customers who will come in requesting a 39t middle for their Ultegra
6503 crankset (stock is 30/42/52) and tell us that a friend of their 3rd
cousin says it works fine, no reason not to do it. We explain the reasons it
won't work as well as stock, but they'll have none of that, because the
friend of their 3rd cousin says it works fine, and besides, they also read
that it worked fine in newsgroups. Have they ridden a bike with that
arrangement? No. But they've heard it works fine. Of course, we have a
history with the customer, and know that this guy is pretty picky about
stuff, so we very reluctantly agree to do the work for him.

We make the change, adjust things as best we can, but notice that we really
can't get it to shift from the 39 to the 30 nearly as well as before...
quite a bit of hesitation. It will eventually drop down, but you have to
plan ahead a bit, and really ease off on the pressure. The customer gets it
back, rides it, and is quite upset that it doesn't work as well as it did
with the 42. "Your mechanics don't know what they're doing" (which would
include me, since I'm the most-experienced mechanic, among other things). So
the guy leaves, mad, planning never to come back again etc. A few months
later we find that he's essentially "gone through" a number of shops, and
about a year later he's back with us, with a bit less attitude and a bit
more appreciation for what it means when someone says that something that's
not standard "works fine."

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"Ozark Bicycle" wrote in message
oups.com...

HarryB wrote:
I just rewaxed (with pure paraffin) my chain and post the following
observations:

1) I got about 900 (898 to be exact) miles between waxings this time
(I didn't keep detailed notes of my prior waxing frequency, but
guessed I got upwards of 700 miles between waxings.)

2) All miles were ridden on pavement and none in the rain.

3) During the last couple hundred miles or so I would get some
occasional squeaking during the last half of longer rides (40+ miles),
but would not hear any squeaking on rides that were shorter. I don't
know why.

HarryB
PS: I am uninterested in hearing about why hot waxing a chain doesn't
"work." I'm simply posting this as an FYI.



And have you experienced the allegedly common "shifting problems"?



  #7  
Old April 10th 06, 04:56 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Chain Waxing Followup


Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
And have you experienced the allegedly common "shifting problems"?


There are a number of things that some might say "work" but don't work as
well as they could. If you don't know any better, does that make it fine?



Ah! The soft put down from the Trek dealer! This dog of yours won't
hunt. I don't "force feed" hot waxing to others, but I have done it
myself since 1990.

Here's my personal experience: I tried waxing solely in an attempt to
have a clean drive train. Unexpected benefits included longer cog,
chainring and chain life. Did shifting performance suffer? Never. My
bikes shift *at least* as well as any among the various groups I've
ridden with all those years.
















If
someone is willing to put up with less-than-optimal shifting in order to get
an unusual gear combination to work, does that mean it would be acceptable
to everyone?

We get customers who will come in requesting a 39t middle for their Ultegra
6503 crankset (stock is 30/42/52) and tell us that a friend of their 3rd
cousin says it works fine, no reason not to do it. We explain the reasons it
won't work as well as stock, but they'll have none of that, because the
friend of their 3rd cousin says it works fine, and besides, they also read
that it worked fine in newsgroups. Have they ridden a bike with that
arrangement? No. But they've heard it works fine. Of course, we have a
history with the customer, and know that this guy is pretty picky about
stuff, so we very reluctantly agree to do the work for him.

We make the change, adjust things as best we can, but notice that we really
can't get it to shift from the 39 to the 30 nearly as well as before...
quite a bit of hesitation. It will eventually drop down, but you have to
plan ahead a bit, and really ease off on the pressure. The customer gets it
back, rides it, and is quite upset that it doesn't work as well as it did
with the 42. "Your mechanics don't know what they're doing" (which would
include me, since I'm the most-experienced mechanic, among other things). So
the guy leaves, mad, planning never to come back again etc. A few months
later we find that he's essentially "gone through" a number of shops, and
about a year later he's back with us, with a bit less attitude and a bit
more appreciation for what it means when someone says that something that's
not standard "works fine."

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"Ozark Bicycle" wrote in message
oups.com...

HarryB wrote:
I just rewaxed (with pure paraffin) my chain and post the following
observations:

1) I got about 900 (898 to be exact) miles between waxings this time
(I didn't keep detailed notes of my prior waxing frequency, but
guessed I got upwards of 700 miles between waxings.)

2) All miles were ridden on pavement and none in the rain.

3) During the last couple hundred miles or so I would get some
occasional squeaking during the last half of longer rides (40+ miles),
but would not hear any squeaking on rides that were shorter. I don't
know why.

HarryB
PS: I am uninterested in hearing about why hot waxing a chain doesn't
"work." I'm simply posting this as an FYI.



And have you experienced the allegedly common "shifting problems"?


  #8  
Old April 10th 06, 09:08 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Chain Waxing Followup

Ah! The soft put down from the Trek dealer! This dog of yours won't
hunt. I don't "force feed" hot waxing to others, but I have done it
myself since 1990.

Here's my personal experience: I tried waxing solely in an attempt to
have a clean drive train. Unexpected benefits included longer cog,
chainring and chain life. Did shifting performance suffer? Never. My
bikes shift *at least* as well as any among the various groups I've
ridden with all those years.


No soft put-down intended, just personal experience. And didn't know you
were a "waxer." I guess this is the ultimate "Your Mileage May Vary" sort of
thing. Our experiences are quite different. Maybe it's those junk Trek bikes
we sell? :)

Anyway, we've gone too long without a serious disagreement on something, so
I'm relieved that the world now seems to be back in order again.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"Ozark Bicycle" wrote in message
oups.com...

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
And have you experienced the allegedly common "shifting problems"?


There are a number of things that some might say "work" but don't work as
well as they could. If you don't know any better, does that make it fine?



Ah! The soft put down from the Trek dealer! This dog of yours won't
hunt. I don't "force feed" hot waxing to others, but I have done it
myself since 1990.

Here's my personal experience: I tried waxing solely in an attempt to
have a clean drive train. Unexpected benefits included longer cog,
chainring and chain life. Did shifting performance suffer? Never. My
bikes shift *at least* as well as any among the various groups I've
ridden with all those years.
















If
someone is willing to put up with less-than-optimal shifting in order to
get
an unusual gear combination to work, does that mean it would be
acceptable
to everyone?

We get customers who will come in requesting a 39t middle for their
Ultegra
6503 crankset (stock is 30/42/52) and tell us that a friend of their 3rd
cousin says it works fine, no reason not to do it. We explain the reasons
it
won't work as well as stock, but they'll have none of that, because the
friend of their 3rd cousin says it works fine, and besides, they also
read
that it worked fine in newsgroups. Have they ridden a bike with that
arrangement? No. But they've heard it works fine. Of course, we have a
history with the customer, and know that this guy is pretty picky about
stuff, so we very reluctantly agree to do the work for him.

We make the change, adjust things as best we can, but notice that we
really
can't get it to shift from the 39 to the 30 nearly as well as before...
quite a bit of hesitation. It will eventually drop down, but you have to
plan ahead a bit, and really ease off on the pressure. The customer gets
it
back, rides it, and is quite upset that it doesn't work as well as it did
with the 42. "Your mechanics don't know what they're doing" (which would
include me, since I'm the most-experienced mechanic, among other things).
So
the guy leaves, mad, planning never to come back again etc. A few months
later we find that he's essentially "gone through" a number of shops, and
about a year later he's back with us, with a bit less attitude and a bit
more appreciation for what it means when someone says that something
that's
not standard "works fine."

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"Ozark Bicycle" wrote in message
oups.com...

HarryB wrote:
I just rewaxed (with pure paraffin) my chain and post the following
observations:

1) I got about 900 (898 to be exact) miles between waxings this time
(I didn't keep detailed notes of my prior waxing frequency, but
guessed I got upwards of 700 miles between waxings.)

2) All miles were ridden on pavement and none in the rain.

3) During the last couple hundred miles or so I would get some
occasional squeaking during the last half of longer rides (40+ miles),
but would not hear any squeaking on rides that were shorter. I don't
know why.

HarryB
PS: I am uninterested in hearing about why hot waxing a chain doesn't
"work." I'm simply posting this as an FYI.


And have you experienced the allegedly common "shifting problems"?




  #9  
Old April 10th 06, 12:28 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Chain Waxing Followup


Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
Ah! The soft put down from the Trek dealer! This dog of yours won't
hunt. I don't "force feed" hot waxing to others, but I have done it
myself since 1990.

Here's my personal experience: I tried waxing solely in an attempt to
have a clean drive train. Unexpected benefits included longer cog,
chainring and chain life. Did shifting performance suffer? Never. My
bikes shift *at least* as well as any among the various groups I've
ridden with all those years.


No soft put-down intended, just personal experience. And didn't know you
were a "waxer."


Yes, and have been for many years. However, this year, I have decided
to experiment with other lubrication schemes to see what happens. Since
I'm anal enough to diary all my rides (mileage, avg. speed, weather,
terrain, etc.), I think I'll be able to get some useful data regarding
drivetrain wear (starting with a totally new drivetrain: cogs,
chainrings and chain).

If I can get an acceptably clean drivetrain allied to the kind of long
drivetrain life I've seen using wax, I'll happily relegate that pot of
wax to the dustbin.



I guess this is the ultimate "Your Mileage May Vary" sort of
thing. Our experiences are quite different.


Perhaps your customers who tried waxing didn't clear the excess wax out
of the chain prior to installation? Simply flexing the chain for a
minute drops alot of excess wax out of the chain. I could see how that
stuff might clog up the cogs a bit, especially in 9/10 SP cassettes.

When you solved those perceived shifting problems, did you just re-lube
the chain or was there more involved (e.g., cleaning excess wax out of
the cassette, re-adjusting the FD and RD, etc.)


Maybe it's those junk Trek bikes
we sell? :)


If you say so! ;-)


Anyway, we've gone too long without a serious disagreement on something, so
I'm relieved that the world now seems to be back in order again.


A return to normalcy!

  #10  
Old April 10th 06, 02:39 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Chain Waxing Followup

On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 01:08:46 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
wrote:

The issue with hot waxing a chain isn't about protecting the chain or
squeaking, but rather shifting performance. I can't tell you how many "hot
waxers" (which were especially prevalent in the 90s, for whatever reason)
would come in complaining their bikes weren't shifting well. We'd re-lube
the chain with more-conventional products, and voila, shifting problem gone.
This repeated itself far too many times to be any sort of random thing.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


Mike, with all due respects, hot waxing does not deteriorate shift
performance. By hot waxing, I don't mean the double boiler getting
the wax to melt. I mean wax that is liquified at 300 F. Wax means
parrafin and not melted candles. The modern, thin chains, stay supple
and free moving, even when dry and not lubed...when they are clean.
Most waxers, include small amounts of oil in the wax blend. I use
about a shot glass of oil to lb. of wax.

In support of your conclusion, I built up a bike that did Ragbrai 2
seasons. The owner only used if for that event. For the 3rd year she
complained about skipped shifts before packing up the bike. She had
not touched the chain since I built it. I no longer wax new builds
but use Prolink and give some to the owners.
 




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