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Chain waxing



 
 
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  #41  
Old June 8th 18, 11:18 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
James[_8_]
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Posts: 5,740
Default Chain waxing

On 09/06/18 00:59, Duane wrote:
On 08/06/2018 10:36 AM, Joerg wrote:



I know some people who boil their chains in wax and reported good
results but it's a major chore. Such reports also have to be taken
with a grain of salt because not everyone rides on pristine asphalt.
Some of us ride singletrack where the front wheel generates a plume of
dust and the chain is right in the middle of that.


I think James uses wax and I doubt that he rides only on pristine
asphalt.¬* Why do you care what other people do to clean their chains?


I only care about truth and reality.

Yes I take gravel roads sometimes. Sometimes there is cow **** on the
roads around here too. Green mush gets flicked around.

No I don't find maintaining my bike every 1000+km a chore. That's 5-6
weeks between a wash'n'wax!

Last week I even stripped the jockey wheels off the rear derailleur and
cleaned and lubed the bearings. Haven't done that for a while.

--
JS
Ads
  #42  
Old June 9th 18, 01:52 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
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Posts: 8,292
Default Chain waxing

On 6/8/2018 7:36 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-07 17:02, sms wrote:
On 6/6/2018 7:35 AM, Joerg wrote:

snip

I clean my chain thoroughly using interdental toothbrushes. My wive
found a brand at Costco that is more rigid than the usual ones so the
job goes faster now. First used for my teeth, then later some day for
a chain. Afterwards scrubbing with an old regular toothbrush, followed
by a good wipe-down with Kleenex. Once the chain is really shiny I
apply White Lightning Epic Ride. If you shake the bottle well the waxy
stuff in it dissolves and thus gets onto the chain as well. I use a
Q-Tip to dab it onlto the links, then gently wipe off any excess with
a Kleenex.

That way a road bike chain can run 150-250mi between cleanings
depending on whether I ride more roads or more bike paths. Gets
dirtier on roads. 40-50mi on the MTB, mostly on dirt trails. The
upside is that this method does not require me to take the chain off
the bike which I would really dread.


OMG, is anyone really spending that much time on chain maintenance?!

Get yourself a Park chain cleaner (or some other brand).
Fill it with kerosene and run the chain through it. Repeat with clean
solvent until the chain runs clean.

Unless the chain is in the solvent, and moving, you won't get it clean
on the inside.

When it's clean, lubricate it with a foaming chain lube.


So how long does that process take? And I mean with clean-up including
the cleaning of the tools used. For most of those of us who are married
clean-up is necessary, we can just leave the stuff sitting on some bench.


About five minutes to set it up, five minutes per chain, five minutes
clean-up. I'll do multiple bikes. It's all about doing it so you don't
get solvent everywhere. I have one of those big rectangular metal drip
trays to catch any solvent that gets splashed out.

Definitely I have found all the things that the experts say about chain
cleaning to be accurate.

As Sheldon Brown writes, "The on-the-bike system has the advantage that
the cleaning machine flexes the links and spins the rollers. This
scrubbing action may do a better job of cleaning the innards."

When wax was popular, we'd get customers coming in all the time
complaining about shifting problems on their bikes. Removed the wax and
lubed with conventional stuff and voila, shifting back to normal." Mike
Jacoubowsky, co-owner of Chain Reaction Bicycles.

"Wax is not mobile and cannot return to a location from which it has
been removed by rotation of one part on another." Jobst Brandt, author
of The Bicycle Wheel

"If you use dry lube or wax, follow product directions and use it often.
In some cases, dry lube should be used for every ride. It wears off very
quickly and no new lube can flow to the critical wear areas." Craig
Metalcraft, manufacturer of Super Link III.

"Downsides of the wax approach include the fact that it is a great deal
of trouble, and that wax is probably not as good a lubricant as oil or
grease." Sheldon Brown
  #43  
Old June 9th 18, 02:25 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 6,044
Default Chain waxing

On 6/8/2018 5:19 PM, James wrote:
On 08/06/18 03:18, Theodore Heise wrote:

Jay makes a great point.¬* If I rode in the rain a lot (or even
much), I probably would not be using wax.


I recently rode a one week supported tour over 800km with two wet days.
I didn't bother re-applying my wax/oil lube for another few hundred kms
after I got back home.¬* No squeaks or dry chain sound.


And IME when a waxed chain begins making the first tiny squeaks, the
squeaks sometimes go away for a while. I've wondered if changes in
humidity have some effect.

The noise will gradually grow worse, of course, but it's mostly an
aesthetic problem; it sounds ugly, but it really doesn't decrease
efficiency.

For me, the tolerable level of noise varies by bike. On the utility
bike, I'm willing to listen much longer before getting out the wax and
torch. On a bike I'll ride with close friends, I'll put up with just a
little noise. On a bike I'll ride with more club members, I'll re-wax
after the ride that makes the first tiny squeaks, because I don't want
to ruin their aesthetic experience.

I suppose there may be a difference in shifting performance, but:

A) I still use friction shifting on most bikes, so I'm probably
auto-compensating; and

B) Shifting a few milliseconds late doesn't bother me a bit.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #44  
Old June 9th 18, 04:05 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Posts: 8,651
Default Chain waxing

On Friday, June 8, 2018 at 7:23:19 AM UTC+1, ERSHC wrote:
On Wed, 6 Jun 2018 22:13:38 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute wrote:
On Thursday, June 7, 2018 at 3:50:29 AM UTC+1, ERSHC wrote:
On Wed, 6 Jun 2018 20:18:36 +0000 (UTC), Theodore Heise wrote:
On Wed, 6 Jun 2018 08:21:52 -0700 (PDT),
jbeattie wrote:
...
On Wed, 6 Jun 2018 07:44:01 -0700 (PDT),
Andre Jute wrote:

Seems to me chain cleaning and waxing is another
sadomasochistic practice that cyclists without the
imagination to do something more productive have brought on
themselves.

Of course, if chain cleaning and waxing defines who you
are, like going to church on Sundays, don't pay any
attention to me; I wouldn't dream of criticizing your
religion.

Seriously, it's a very simple process, and less work than cleaning
and relubing a chain. I'm not advocating it as suitable for
anyone else, just desribing how it works for me. If that warrants
chastising, I have to wonder who are the real religious zealots.


Really simple, and something I do ONCE in the chain's life. Hot wax
bath, then on to the bike. 3000 miles and .25% elongation later, it's
into the thrash and a new $12.50 chain (currently SRAM PC850s) gets
installed. Cheap and easy. And I ride in the rain and snow as well as
good weather in NYC.

The best internally geared hubs don't have the efficiency of a dirty
chain on derailure cogs.


You might want to check your facts on that one before you express the same fallacy in a less forgiving venue.


Point me to something reasonably unbiased and more recent than the
2001 Cycling Science article that supports this, and I'll be glad to
change my opinion. But not my gear train. Like chain waxing, it works
for me, and that is really what I care about.


It's not important enough to me to go looking for the data. I'm not trying to persuade you to change, merely pointing out that what on RBT is a small eccentricity in the wider world will be considered a weird obsession, and prevent you mating with the woman of your dreams.

Andre Jute
Consequences
  #45  
Old June 9th 18, 04:10 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Posts: 8,651
Default Chain waxing

On Friday, June 8, 2018 at 6:39:03 AM UTC+1, Tosspot wrote:
On 07/06/18 21:40, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-07 12:15, Tosspot wrote:
On 07/06/18 07:13, Andre Jute wrote:
On Thursday, June 7, 2018 at 3:50:29 AM UTC+1, ERSHC wrote:


[...]

I'm much too lazy to waste energy on internal
gears or on oiling a chain every 100 miles.

Now that's the sort of cyclist I like hearing about. Though I don't
quite see how an IGH would "waste" your energy. A Rohloff, for
instance, has 14 evenly spaced gears, a fat range, and an instant
change, through several gears in an instant, if you wish. Oh, and the
Rohloff is definitely more efficient than a dirty chain and
derailleur, according to reliable German tests.

Me, I'd keep my d√©railleur clean and solve that problem.¬* Save some
weight as well.


And a TON of money.


Yep. IHGs are a bit of a niche market. 4 of my current bikes have
them, one has a derailleur. That Derailleur is dry miles only and is a
good solution. The others are rain, ice, snow, salt & grit. IHG are a
better solution.

I've tried the Hebie chain gliders as well, and haven't been so
impressed with them, but if you have IHGs, a good chain case is really a
must or you lose some of the advantages.

I have two Rohloffs. Are they worth it, not compared to an Alfine-11
imho, but, they are very, very nice. In red of course, cos that goes
faster :-)


I trashed two 8-speed Nexus Premium IHG before 3000m, and my Rohloff has lasted ten years, so I think it is worth the money. Also, I suspect that if I electrified the Nexus gearboxes, I'd trash them well before 3000m. The Rohloff just shrugs off anything and everything. An indefinite lifespan seems a bargain to me, whatever it costs.

Andre Jute
Economist, not a sophistry
  #46  
Old June 9th 18, 04:04 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
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Posts: 5,304
Default Chain waxing

On 2018-06-08 10:06, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, June 8, 2018 at 9:17:37 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-08 07:59, Duane wrote:
On 08/06/2018 10:36 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-07 17:02, sms wrote:
On 6/6/2018 7:35 AM, Joerg wrote:

snip

I clean my chain thoroughly using interdental toothbrushes.
My wive found a brand at Costco that is more rigid than the
usual ones so the job goes faster now. First used for my
teeth, then later some day for a chain. Afterwards
scrubbing with an old regular toothbrush, followed by a
good wipe-down with Kleenex. Once the chain is really shiny
I apply White Lightning Epic Ride. If you shake the bottle
well the waxy stuff in it dissolves and thus gets onto the
chain as well. I use a Q-Tip to dab it onlto the links,
then gently wipe off any excess with a Kleenex.

That way a road bike chain can run 150-250mi between
cleanings depending on whether I ride more roads or more
bike paths. Gets dirtier on roads. 40-50mi on the MTB,
mostly on dirt trails. The upside is that this method does
not require me to take the chain off the bike which I would
really dread.

OMG, is anyone really spending that much time on chain
maintenance?!

Get yourself a Park chain cleaner (or some other brand). Fill
it with kerosene and run the chain through it. Repeat with
clean solvent until the chain runs clean.

Unless the chain is in the solvent, and moving, you won't get
it clean on the inside.

When it's clean, lubricate it with a foaming chain lube.


So how long does that process take? And I mean with clean-up
including the cleaning of the tools used. For most of those of
us who are married clean-up is necessary, we can just leave the
stuff sitting on some bench.


The bike is already on the stand for washing.



Last time I washed my road bike was ... ahm ... nineteen-sumpthin.
The MTB doesn't get washed either, it just wouldn't make sense.


... I have a pan in my shed with a bottle of degreaser (not
kerosene but something biodegradable) and the Park chain cleaner
in the pan. Takes a few minutes to fill up the tool and run the
chain through it. The pan catches the slosh. I don't usually
change the degreaser. A couple minutes in the chain cleaner
works well enough for me. Hose out everything and let it dry
while the bike is drying. Certainly takes less time than what
you describe with the toothbrushes.



Well, yeah, if you just put the bath, the pan and so on back on
the shelf as is. Not gonna happen here.


What? No shelves? You can buy shelves at Home Depot you know. Is it
about your wife? Does she check your wash buckets to make sure
they're clean inside with no biodegradable solvent-filled chain
cleaning machines in them?



Yes :-)


... Mine too!



See?


... She was up at like 2:00 AM this
morning going through all my buckets in the garage . . . totally
****ed off at the condition of some of my bike cleaning brushes. So I
asked her about the dust under the refrigerator . . . "have you seen
that . . . have you? How could any self-respecting wife allow that
disgusting accumulation? And your hair in the drain! It's like
stringy snot! I want a divorce!"


When making bacon and eggs this morning I mentioned a li'l grease spot
on the range from yesterday. When I came home late from a fun MTB ride
and she still made a very nice dinner. That didn't go over very well :-)

Most women are neat freaks while most men would become real slobs if
they weren't married to them.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #47  
Old June 9th 18, 04:07 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,304
Default Chain waxing

On 2018-06-08 10:30, Duane wrote:
On 08/06/2018 12:17 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-08 07:59, Duane wrote:
On 08/06/2018 10:36 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-07 17:02, sms wrote:
On 6/6/2018 7:35 AM, Joerg wrote:

snip

I clean my chain thoroughly using interdental toothbrushes. My wive
found a brand at Costco that is more rigid than the usual ones so the
job goes faster now. First used for my teeth, then later some day for
a chain. Afterwards scrubbing with an old regular toothbrush,
followed
by a good wipe-down with Kleenex. Once the chain is really shiny I
apply White Lightning Epic Ride. If you shake the bottle well the
waxy
stuff in it dissolves and thus gets onto the chain as well. I use a
Q-Tip to dab it onlto the links, then gently wipe off any excess with
a Kleenex.

That way a road bike chain can run 150-250mi between cleanings
depending on whether I ride more roads or more bike paths. Gets
dirtier on roads. 40-50mi on the MTB, mostly on dirt trails. The
upside is that this method does not require me to take the chain off
the bike which I would really dread.

OMG, is anyone really spending that much time on chain maintenance?!

Get yourself a Park chain cleaner (or some other brand).
Fill it with kerosene and run the chain through it. Repeat with clean
solvent until the chain runs clean.

Unless the chain is in the solvent, and moving, you won't get it clean
on the inside.

When it's clean, lubricate it with a foaming chain lube.


So how long does that process take? And I mean with clean-up including
the cleaning of the tools used. For most of those of us who are
married clean-up is necessary, we can just leave the stuff sitting on
some bench.


The bike is already on the stand for washing.



Last time I washed my road bike was ... ahm ... nineteen-sumpthin. The
MTB doesn't get washed either, it just wouldn't make sense.



The problems you have with equipment failure start to make sense...


The BB would not have failed if I had hit it with the pressure washer
after every ride. Yeah, right.



... I have a pan in my shed
with a bottle of degreaser (not kerosene but something biodegradable)
and the Park chain cleaner in the pan. Takes a few minutes to fill up
the tool and run the chain through it. The pan catches the slosh. I
don't usually change the degreaser. A couple minutes in the chain
cleaner works well enough for me. Hose out everything and let it dry
while the bike is drying. Certainly takes less time than what you
describe with the toothbrushes.



Well, yeah, if you just put the bath, the pan and so on back on the
shelf as is. Not gonna happen here.



You missed the part about hose everything down and let it dry with the
bike. Cleanup doesn't take any time.


Hose down the bath container? That would get you into trouble with
environmental watchdogs some day.


... Not that I care much how you clean your
chain. Just answering your question.



Above all, avoid hot wax.

http://nordicgroup.us/chain/


I know some people who boil their chains in wax and reported good
results but it's a major chore. Such reports also have to be taken
with a grain of salt because not everyone rides on pristine asphalt.
Some of us ride singletrack where the front wheel generates a plume of
dust and the chain is right in the middle of that.


I think James uses wax and I doubt that he rides only on pristine
asphalt. Why do you care what other people do to clean their chains?



Never said I did.


You sure write a lot about it then...



Only about how I clean mine. It works.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #48  
Old June 9th 18, 04:13 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,304
Default Chain waxing

On 2018-06-08 17:52, sms wrote:
On 6/8/2018 7:36 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-07 17:02, sms wrote:
On 6/6/2018 7:35 AM, Joerg wrote:

snip

I clean my chain thoroughly using interdental toothbrushes. My wive
found a brand at Costco that is more rigid than the usual ones so the
job goes faster now. First used for my teeth, then later some day for
a chain. Afterwards scrubbing with an old regular toothbrush, followed
by a good wipe-down with Kleenex. Once the chain is really shiny I
apply White Lightning Epic Ride. If you shake the bottle well the waxy
stuff in it dissolves and thus gets onto the chain as well. I use a
Q-Tip to dab it onlto the links, then gently wipe off any excess with
a Kleenex.

That way a road bike chain can run 150-250mi between cleanings
depending on whether I ride more roads or more bike paths. Gets
dirtier on roads. 40-50mi on the MTB, mostly on dirt trails. The
upside is that this method does not require me to take the chain off
the bike which I would really dread.

OMG, is anyone really spending that much time on chain maintenance?!

Get yourself a Park chain cleaner (or some other brand).
Fill it with kerosene and run the chain through it. Repeat with clean
solvent until the chain runs clean.

Unless the chain is in the solvent, and moving, you won't get it clean
on the inside.

When it's clean, lubricate it with a foaming chain lube.


So how long does that process take? And I mean with clean-up including
the cleaning of the tools used. For most of those of us who are
married clean-up is necessary, we can just leave the stuff sitting on
some bench.


About five minutes to set it up, five minutes per chain, five minutes
clean-up. I'll do multiple bikes. It's all about doing it so you don't
get solvent everywhere. I have one of those big rectangular metal drip
trays to catch any solvent that gets splashed out.


But then you also have to clean the drip tray. I guess yesterday's
newspaper would also do.


Definitely I have found all the things that the experts say about chain
cleaning to be accurate.

As Sheldon Brown writes, "The on-the-bike system has the advantage that
the cleaning machine flexes the links and spins the rollers. This
scrubbing action may do a better job of cleaning the innards."


The flexing makes sense. Maybe I should try that. The guy I rode with
yesterday mentioned a Park Tool bath he uses.


When wax was popular, we'd get customers coming in all the time
complaining about shifting problems on their bikes. Removed the wax and
lubed with conventional stuff and voila, shifting back to normal." Mike
Jacoubowsky, co-owner of Chain Reaction Bicycles.

"Wax is not mobile and cannot return to a location from which it has
been removed by rotation of one part on another." Jobst Brandt, author
of The Bicycle Wheel


Jobst was a good expert. Except on water intake, I believe.


"If you use dry lube or wax, follow product directions and use it often.
In some cases, dry lube should be used for every ride. It wears off very
quickly and no new lube can flow to the critical wear areas." Craig
Metalcraft, manufacturer of Super Link III.

"Downsides of the wax approach include the fact that it is a great deal
of trouble, and that wax is probably not as good a lubricant as oil or
grease." Sheldon Brown



Wax isn't a good lubricant but most good wax oils like mine are a mix of
synthetic oil and wax. Has to be mixed up before each application by
vigorously shaking the bottle.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #49  
Old June 10th 18, 12:22 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,224
Default Chain waxing

On Saturday, June 9, 2018 at 8:04:24 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-08 10:06, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, June 8, 2018 at 9:17:37 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-08 07:59, Duane wrote:
On 08/06/2018 10:36 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-07 17:02, sms wrote:
On 6/6/2018 7:35 AM, Joerg wrote:

snip

I clean my chain thoroughly using interdental toothbrushes.
My wive found a brand at Costco that is more rigid than the
usual ones so the job goes faster now. First used for my
teeth, then later some day for a chain. Afterwards
scrubbing with an old regular toothbrush, followed by a
good wipe-down with Kleenex. Once the chain is really shiny
I apply White Lightning Epic Ride. If you shake the bottle
well the waxy stuff in it dissolves and thus gets onto the
chain as well. I use a Q-Tip to dab it onlto the links,
then gently wipe off any excess with a Kleenex.

That way a road bike chain can run 150-250mi between
cleanings depending on whether I ride more roads or more
bike paths. Gets dirtier on roads. 40-50mi on the MTB,
mostly on dirt trails. The upside is that this method does
not require me to take the chain off the bike which I would
really dread.

OMG, is anyone really spending that much time on chain
maintenance?!

Get yourself a Park chain cleaner (or some other brand). Fill
it with kerosene and run the chain through it. Repeat with
clean solvent until the chain runs clean.

Unless the chain is in the solvent, and moving, you won't get
it clean on the inside.

When it's clean, lubricate it with a foaming chain lube.


So how long does that process take? And I mean with clean-up
including the cleaning of the tools used. For most of those of
us who are married clean-up is necessary, we can just leave the
stuff sitting on some bench.


The bike is already on the stand for washing.


Last time I washed my road bike was ... ahm ... nineteen-sumpthin.
The MTB doesn't get washed either, it just wouldn't make sense.


... I have a pan in my shed with a bottle of degreaser (not
kerosene but something biodegradable) and the Park chain cleaner
in the pan. Takes a few minutes to fill up the tool and run the
chain through it. The pan catches the slosh. I don't usually
change the degreaser. A couple minutes in the chain cleaner
works well enough for me. Hose out everything and let it dry
while the bike is drying. Certainly takes less time than what
you describe with the toothbrushes.


Well, yeah, if you just put the bath, the pan and so on back on
the shelf as is. Not gonna happen here.


What? No shelves? You can buy shelves at Home Depot you know. Is it
about your wife? Does she check your wash buckets to make sure
they're clean inside with no biodegradable solvent-filled chain
cleaning machines in them?



Yes :-)


... Mine too!



See?


... She was up at like 2:00 AM this
morning going through all my buckets in the garage . . . totally
****ed off at the condition of some of my bike cleaning brushes. So I
asked her about the dust under the refrigerator . . . "have you seen
that . . . have you? How could any self-respecting wife allow that
disgusting accumulation? And your hair in the drain! It's like
stringy snot! I want a divorce!"


When making bacon and eggs this morning I mentioned a li'l grease spot
on the range from yesterday. When I came home late from a fun MTB ride
and she still made a very nice dinner. That didn't go over very well :-)

Most women are neat freaks while most men would become real slobs if
they weren't married to them.


Have you seen Lou's garage? You could do surgery on the floor without fear of infection.

My wife has been very patient with the mess I made in the family room downstairs. I've been watching movies and doing heavy bike maintenance for the fleet which doubled when my son moved in after his injury.

I just got back from Universal where I bought a liter of Shimano mineral oil for the hydraulic brakes. It was $4 more than buying 50ml from Bike Gallery. Incroyable -- $17.99 for 50ml. Even from Western, it's $12.75 for 50ml.. You can get 1,000ml for anywhere from $18-22 low street price. I didn't even bother price matching at Universal and paid $22. I'll never use all that mineral oil, but I couldn't bear spending so much for 50ml. Maybe I'll sell the left overs on the disk brake black market.

By the way, I tried to buy $9 worth of hydraulic mineral oil made by Finish Line, and the guys at Bike Gallery (who I really like and have been good to me), basically swatted my hand away, saying that Shimano was the only way to go. I think either (1) Shimano has everyone cowed, or (2) Finish Line needs better PR. I think Shimano actually claims that the warranty on the hydraulic discs is voided if you use non-Shimano magical oil.

-- Jay Beattie.





  #50  
Old June 10th 18, 02:49 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
David Scheidt
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,253
Default Chain waxing

jbeattie wrote:

:I just got back from Universal where I bought a liter of Shimano mineral
il for the hydraulic brakes. It was $4 more than buying 50ml from
:Bike Gallery. Incroyable -- $17.99 for 50ml. Even from Western, it's
:$12.75 for 50ml. You can get 1,000ml for anywhere from $18-22 low street
rice. I didn't even bother price matching at Universal and paid $22.
:I'll never use all that mineral oil, but I couldn't bear spending so much
:for 50ml. Maybe I'll sell the left overs on the disk brake black market.

It's not going to go bad. I find it infuriating that no one sells
mineral oil in quanties other than 50ml or 1000ml.



--
sig 42
 




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