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  #51  
Old June 10th 18, 04:15 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,651
Default Chain waxing

On Sunday, June 10, 2018 at 2:49:31 AM UTC+1, David Scheidt wrote:
jbeattie wrote:

:I just got back from Universal where I bought a liter of Shimano mineral
il for the hydraulic brakes. It was $4 more than buying 50ml from
:Bike Gallery. Incroyable -- $17.99 for 50ml. Even from Western, it's
:$12.75 for 50ml. You can get 1,000ml for anywhere from $18-22 low street
rice. I didn't even bother price matching at Universal and paid $22.
:I'll never use all that mineral oil, but I couldn't bear spending so much
:for 50ml. Maybe I'll sell the left overs on the disk brake black market.

It's not going to go bad. I find it infuriating that no one sells
mineral oil in quanties other than 50ml or 1000ml.



--
sig 42


Shhh. Rohloff used to sell either a single shot of gear service oil, which you use a minimum of once a year, or one liter. The liter set was way over a hundred bucks, the singleton kit (cleaning oil, syringe, all-seasons oil) was about twenty bucks at the discounters. There was a lot of grousing about that. Now they sell 250ml lots of each oil in a set of cans, and the syringes are reusable or you can get a handful, usually free, from whichever vet your wife frequents if he also has a large animal practice. Basically, investing about fifty bucks in the 250ml setup gives me gear oil for the rest of my life because I use only 15ml* at a time, once a year.

Andre Jute
*If you're one of those net curtainn-twitchers tempted to write in outrage that I'm wrecking an expensive gearbox, contain yourself and do your homework. 15ml is all that is required to cover the inside of the gearbox and all its parts; that is also how much is put in a new gearbox by the factory. The 25ml requirement in the manual is German cover-your-assery, strictly for careless louts, which isn't me (I'm pretty loutish on subjects like freedom of speech and stepping on the faces of antisocial scum, but careless? -- nope, you got the wrong guy). The surplus CYA 10ml mists out through the vent in the centre of the axle and stains your wife's favorite Persian carpet.. Well, of course my bike lives inside in the central heating! It's an improvement from when I rebuilt a Bentley -- not just the engine, the whole car -- in the living room because the triple garage I normally used for these projects when I wasn't on a Maria Callas kick echoed like a badly designed church and made Callas quite indistinct with competing time delays, and I had built a wall of electrostatic speakers in the arch between the living room and the dining room -- see "Bessel Arrays" at
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/...n%20BESSEL.htm
After that a bike inside in the winter is light relief; at least it doesn't play Callas at La Scala volume.
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  #52  
Old June 10th 18, 03:35 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,304
Default Chain waxing

On 2018-06-09 16:22, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, June 9, 2018 at 8:04:24 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-08 10:06, jbeattie wrote:


[...]

... She was up at like 2:00 AM this morning going through all my
buckets in the garage . . . totally ****ed off at the condition
of some of my bike cleaning brushes. So I asked her about the
dust under the refrigerator . . . "have you seen that . . . have
you? How could any self-respecting wife allow that disgusting
accumulation? And your hair in the drain! It's like stringy
snot! I want a divorce!"


When making bacon and eggs this morning I mentioned a li'l grease
spot on the range from yesterday. When I came home late from a fun
MTB ride and she still made a very nice dinner. That didn't go over
very well :-)

Most women are neat freaks while most men would become real slobs
if they weren't married to them.


Have you seen Lou's garage? You could do surgery on the floor
without fear of infection.


Is this the guy who ride a bike with only a front brake?


My wife has been very patient with the mess I made in the family room
downstairs. I've been watching movies and doing heavy bike
maintenance for the fleet which doubled when my son moved in after
his injury.


I'd be hearing about that every day. Though she has accepted that I ride
on dirt trails a lot and that there is a fair amount of "trail debris"
under the MTB in the garage. As long as none of it moves on its own.


I just got back from Universal where I bought a liter of Shimano
mineral oil for the hydraulic brakes. It was $4 more than buying
50ml from Bike Gallery. Incroyable -- $17.99 for 50ml. Even from
Western, it's $12.75 for 50ml. You can get 1,000ml for anywhere from
$18-22 low street price. I didn't even bother price matching at
Universal and paid $22. I'll never use all that mineral oil, but I
couldn't bear spending so much for 50ml. Maybe I'll sell the left
overs on the disk brake black market.


Sounds like the rip-off with brake pads. The LBS wants $16 for a pair of
cheap resin pads while I buy nice ceramic-based ones for around $2/pair
from China, in bulk. Well, as long as there is no brake pad tariff. The
pads at the LBS are most likely also made in China, if not at the same
factory.

An oil change on a Rohloff hub would cost you about the same as an oil
change on a car:

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/tools/ro...-8410/?geoc=US

There must be huge profit margins on this stuff and of course they all
try to make you captive by requiring to buy at the company store or the
warranty is toast.


By the way, I tried to buy $9 worth of hydraulic mineral oil made by
Finish Line, and the guys at Bike Gallery (who I really like and have
been good to me), basically swatted my hand away, saying that Shimano
was the only way to go. I think either (1) Shimano has everyone
cowed, or (2) Finish Line needs better PR. I think Shimano actually
claims that the warranty on the hydraulic discs is voided if you use
non-Shimano magical oil.


I wonder if they'd do a full forensic investigation with each $100
warranty claim to find out which oil was used, who sold it, whether some
sort of embargo was breached and whether the goons need to be sent out.

My brakes are simple, they use DOT3 or DOT4 like the ones in our cars
do. The quantity needs costs pennies.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #53  
Old June 10th 18, 03:49 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,044
Default Chain waxing

On 6/9/2018 7:22 PM, jbeattie wrote:

I just got back from Universal where I bought a liter of Shimano mineral oil for the hydraulic brakes. It was $4 more than buying 50ml from Bike Gallery. Incroyable -- $17.99 for 50ml.


Let's see: that's about $1300 per gallon.

You can get 1,000ml for anywhere from $18-22 low street price. I didn't even bother price matching at Universal and paid $22. I'll never use all that mineral oil, but I couldn't bear spending so much for 50ml. Maybe I'll sell the left overs on the disk brake black market.


http://www.wisebread.com/30-unexpect...or-mineral-oil

By the way, I tried to buy $9 worth of hydraulic mineral oil made by Finish Line, and the guys at Bike Gallery (who I really like and have been good to me), basically swatted my hand away, saying that Shimano was the only way to go. I think either (1) Shimano has everyone cowed, or (2) Finish Line needs better PR. I think Shimano actually claims that the warranty on the hydraulic discs is voided if you use non-Shimano magical oil.


.... or non-Shimano tools to work on their components?


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #54  
Old June 10th 18, 04:01 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,224
Default Chain waxing

On Sunday, June 10, 2018 at 7:36:02 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-09 16:22, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, June 9, 2018 at 8:04:24 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-08 10:06, jbeattie wrote:


[...]

... She was up at like 2:00 AM this morning going through all my
buckets in the garage . . . totally ****ed off at the condition
of some of my bike cleaning brushes. So I asked her about the
dust under the refrigerator . . . "have you seen that . . . have
you? How could any self-respecting wife allow that disgusting
accumulation? And your hair in the drain! It's like stringy
snot! I want a divorce!"


When making bacon and eggs this morning I mentioned a li'l grease
spot on the range from yesterday. When I came home late from a fun
MTB ride and she still made a very nice dinner. That didn't go over
very well :-)

Most women are neat freaks while most men would become real slobs
if they weren't married to them.


Have you seen Lou's garage? You could do surgery on the floor
without fear of infection.


Is this the guy who ride a bike with only a front brake?


My wife has been very patient with the mess I made in the family room
downstairs. I've been watching movies and doing heavy bike
maintenance for the fleet which doubled when my son moved in after
his injury.


I'd be hearing about that every day. Though she has accepted that I ride
on dirt trails a lot and that there is a fair amount of "trail debris"
under the MTB in the garage. As long as none of it moves on its own.


I just got back from Universal where I bought a liter of Shimano
mineral oil for the hydraulic brakes. It was $4 more than buying
50ml from Bike Gallery. Incroyable -- $17.99 for 50ml. Even from
Western, it's $12.75 for 50ml. You can get 1,000ml for anywhere from
$18-22 low street price. I didn't even bother price matching at
Universal and paid $22. I'll never use all that mineral oil, but I
couldn't bear spending so much for 50ml. Maybe I'll sell the left
overs on the disk brake black market.


Sounds like the rip-off with brake pads. The LBS wants $16 for a pair of
cheap resin pads while I buy nice ceramic-based ones for around $2/pair
from China, in bulk. Well, as long as there is no brake pad tariff. The
pads at the LBS are most likely also made in China, if not at the same
factory.

An oil change on a Rohloff hub would cost you about the same as an oil
change on a car:

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/tools/ro...-8410/?geoc=US

There must be huge profit margins on this stuff and of course they all
try to make you captive by requiring to buy at the company store or the
warranty is toast.


By the way, I tried to buy $9 worth of hydraulic mineral oil made by
Finish Line, and the guys at Bike Gallery (who I really like and have
been good to me), basically swatted my hand away, saying that Shimano
was the only way to go. I think either (1) Shimano has everyone
cowed, or (2) Finish Line needs better PR. I think Shimano actually
claims that the warranty on the hydraulic discs is voided if you use
non-Shimano magical oil.


I wonder if they'd do a full forensic investigation with each $100
warranty claim to find out which oil was used, who sold it, whether some
sort of embargo was breached and whether the goons need to be sent out.

My brakes are simple, they use DOT3 or DOT4 like the ones in our cars
do. The quantity needs costs pennies.


Shimano made the decision to go with mineral oil for the road discs, which was a legitimate choice, and considering the fill volumes, it saves a lot of waste DOT fluid that absorbs water and has to be tossed. DOT fluid is nasty on paint, etc. I can be sloppy with mineral oil -- use it for massage, laxative, etc., etc. It's multipurpose.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #55  
Old June 10th 18, 04:10 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,559
Default Chain waxing

On 6/10/2018 9:35 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-09 16:22, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, June 9, 2018 at 8:04:24 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-08 10:06, jbeattie wrote:


[...]
-snip snip-



Is this the guy who ride a bike with only a front brake?


-snip snip-


front brakes stop; rear brakes skid.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #56  
Old June 10th 18, 05:49 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,304
Default Chain waxing

On 2018-06-10 08:01, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, June 10, 2018 at 7:36:02 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-09 16:22, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, June 9, 2018 at 8:04:24 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-08 10:06, jbeattie wrote:


[...]

... She was up at like 2:00 AM this morning going through all
my buckets in the garage . . . totally ****ed off at the
condition of some of my bike cleaning brushes. So I asked her
about the dust under the refrigerator . . . "have you seen
that . . . have you? How could any self-respecting wife
allow that disgusting accumulation? And your hair in the
drain! It's like stringy snot! I want a divorce!"


When making bacon and eggs this morning I mentioned a li'l
grease spot on the range from yesterday. When I came home late
from a fun MTB ride and she still made a very nice dinner. That
didn't go over very well :-)

Most women are neat freaks while most men would become real
slobs if they weren't married to them.


Have you seen Lou's garage? You could do surgery on the floor
without fear of infection.


Is this the guy who ride a bike with only a front brake?


My wife has been very patient with the mess I made in the family
room downstairs. I've been watching movies and doing heavy bike
maintenance for the fleet which doubled when my son moved in
after his injury.


I'd be hearing about that every day. Though she has accepted that I
ride on dirt trails a lot and that there is a fair amount of "trail
debris" under the MTB in the garage. As long as none of it moves on
its own.


I just got back from Universal where I bought a liter of Shimano
mineral oil for the hydraulic brakes. It was $4 more than
buying 50ml from Bike Gallery. Incroyable -- $17.99 for 50ml.
Even from Western, it's $12.75 for 50ml. You can get 1,000ml for
anywhere from $18-22 low street price. I didn't even bother price
matching at Universal and paid $22. I'll never use all that
mineral oil, but I couldn't bear spending so much for 50ml. Maybe
I'll sell the left overs on the disk brake black market.


Sounds like the rip-off with brake pads. The LBS wants $16 for a
pair of cheap resin pads while I buy nice ceramic-based ones for
around $2/pair from China, in bulk. Well, as long as there is no
brake pad tariff. The pads at the LBS are most likely also made in
China, if not at the same factory.

An oil change on a Rohloff hub would cost you about the same as an
oil change on a car:

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/tools/ro...-8410/?geoc=US



There must be huge profit margins on this stuff and of course they all
try to make you captive by requiring to buy at the company store or
the warranty is toast.


By the way, I tried to buy $9 worth of hydraulic mineral oil made
by Finish Line, and the guys at Bike Gallery (who I really like
and have been good to me), basically swatted my hand away, saying
that Shimano was the only way to go. I think either (1) Shimano
has everyone cowed, or (2) Finish Line needs better PR. I think
Shimano actually claims that the warranty on the hydraulic discs
is voided if you use non-Shimano magical oil.


I wonder if they'd do a full forensic investigation with each $100
warranty claim to find out which oil was used, who sold it, whether
some sort of embargo was breached and whether the goons need to be
sent out.

My brakes are simple, they use DOT3 or DOT4 like the ones in our
cars do. The quantity needs costs pennies.


Shimano made the decision to go with mineral oil for the road discs,
which was a legitimate choice, and considering the fill volumes, it
saves a lot of waste DOT fluid that absorbs water and has to be
tossed. DOT fluid is nasty on paint, etc. I can be sloppy with
mineral oil -- use it for massage, laxative, etc., etc. It's
multipurpose.


DOT has much better performance when things get hot. Which they do on an
MTB. Water boils off if you let it. So far I didn't have to change my
fluid, just top off a wee bit. It is aggressive towards paint but not
that aggressive. Paint is the last thing I'd worry about on my bikes.

When doing fluid jobs on the brakes one has to be careful. I never
spilled a drop. That's one of the jobs syringes where invented for.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #57  
Old June 10th 18, 05:52 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,304
Default Chain waxing

On 2018-06-10 08:10, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/10/2018 9:35 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-09 16:22, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, June 9, 2018 at 8:04:24 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-08 10:06, jbeattie wrote:


[...]
-snip snip-



Is this the guy who ride a bike with only a front brake?


-snip snip-


front brakes stop; rear brakes skid.


Not on my bikes. Problem with only one brake is that when it fails you
have ... no brakes. It has happened to me several times that one of them
failed. I also know a rider who thought that after one brake failed she
could go on using the bike and fix that when she gets around to it. Then
one fine morning it happened, the 2nd brake failed, downhill,
T-intersection into a busy road with a stop sign and no way to stop.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #58  
Old June 10th 18, 06:51 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tosspot[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,168
Default Chain waxing

On 10/06/18 16:35, Joerg wrote:

snip

My brakes are simple, they use DOT3 or DOT4 like the ones in our cars
do. The quantity needs costs pennies.


My only problem with that is it's quite aggressive on paint, and you
should bled the whole system every year. Mineral oil has neither of
these problems, but you don't use it in cars.



  #59  
Old June 10th 18, 07:03 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,224
Default Chain waxing

On Sunday, June 10, 2018 at 9:49:56 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-10 08:01, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, June 10, 2018 at 7:36:02 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-09 16:22, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, June 9, 2018 at 8:04:24 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-08 10:06, jbeattie wrote:

[...]

... She was up at like 2:00 AM this morning going through all
my buckets in the garage . . . totally ****ed off at the
condition of some of my bike cleaning brushes. So I asked her
about the dust under the refrigerator . . . "have you seen
that . . . have you? How could any self-respecting wife
allow that disgusting accumulation? And your hair in the
drain! It's like stringy snot! I want a divorce!"


When making bacon and eggs this morning I mentioned a li'l
grease spot on the range from yesterday. When I came home late
from a fun MTB ride and she still made a very nice dinner. That
didn't go over very well :-)

Most women are neat freaks while most men would become real
slobs if they weren't married to them.


Have you seen Lou's garage? You could do surgery on the floor
without fear of infection.


Is this the guy who ride a bike with only a front brake?


My wife has been very patient with the mess I made in the family
room downstairs. I've been watching movies and doing heavy bike
maintenance for the fleet which doubled when my son moved in
after his injury.


I'd be hearing about that every day. Though she has accepted that I
ride on dirt trails a lot and that there is a fair amount of "trail
debris" under the MTB in the garage. As long as none of it moves on
its own.


I just got back from Universal where I bought a liter of Shimano
mineral oil for the hydraulic brakes. It was $4 more than
buying 50ml from Bike Gallery. Incroyable -- $17.99 for 50ml.
Even from Western, it's $12.75 for 50ml. You can get 1,000ml for
anywhere from $18-22 low street price. I didn't even bother price
matching at Universal and paid $22. I'll never use all that
mineral oil, but I couldn't bear spending so much for 50ml. Maybe
I'll sell the left overs on the disk brake black market.


Sounds like the rip-off with brake pads. The LBS wants $16 for a
pair of cheap resin pads while I buy nice ceramic-based ones for
around $2/pair from China, in bulk. Well, as long as there is no
brake pad tariff. The pads at the LBS are most likely also made in
China, if not at the same factory.

An oil change on a Rohloff hub would cost you about the same as an
oil change on a car:

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/tools/ro...-8410/?geoc=US



There must be huge profit margins on this stuff and of course they all
try to make you captive by requiring to buy at the company store or
the warranty is toast.


By the way, I tried to buy $9 worth of hydraulic mineral oil made
by Finish Line, and the guys at Bike Gallery (who I really like
and have been good to me), basically swatted my hand away, saying
that Shimano was the only way to go. I think either (1) Shimano
has everyone cowed, or (2) Finish Line needs better PR. I think
Shimano actually claims that the warranty on the hydraulic discs
is voided if you use non-Shimano magical oil.


I wonder if they'd do a full forensic investigation with each $100
warranty claim to find out which oil was used, who sold it, whether
some sort of embargo was breached and whether the goons need to be
sent out.

My brakes are simple, they use DOT3 or DOT4 like the ones in our
cars do. The quantity needs costs pennies.


Shimano made the decision to go with mineral oil for the road discs,
which was a legitimate choice, and considering the fill volumes, it
saves a lot of waste DOT fluid that absorbs water and has to be
tossed. DOT fluid is nasty on paint, etc. I can be sloppy with
mineral oil -- use it for massage, laxative, etc., etc. It's
multipurpose.


DOT has much better performance when things get hot. Which they do on an
MTB. Water boils off if you let it. So far I didn't have to change my
fluid, just top off a wee bit. It is aggressive towards paint but not
that aggressive. Paint is the last thing I'd worry about on my bikes.

When doing fluid jobs on the brakes one has to be careful. I never
spilled a drop. That's one of the jobs syringes where invented for.


Actually, Shimano mineral oil has a higher boiling point than any DOT fluid, and it never changes boiling point. https://bikerumor.com/2013/04/11/tec...-disc-updated/

Scroll to the bottom. It's expensive, but it doesn't go bad -- so that's a plus. I hate having cans or bags of stuff that you have to throw away because they absorb water, like plaster and setting joint compounds, cement, etc.

I use a syringe, but I do get drips and drabs from the fill port or the lever port. Not much. You just wipe it off.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #60  
Old June 10th 18, 08:34 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
David Scheidt
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,253
Default Chain waxing

Tosspot wrote:
:On 10/06/18 16:35, Joerg wrote:

:snip

: My brakes are simple, they use DOT3 or DOT4 like the ones in our cars
: do. The quantity needs costs pennies.

:My only problem with that is it's quite aggressive on paint, and you
:should bled the whole system every year. Mineral oil has neither of
:these problems, but you don't use it in cars.

Rolls Royce and citreon made cars with mineral oil brake systems. I
belive Rolls continues to do so (though they could have stopped five
years ago.)
I've workd on some, they work fine. crazy complicated, with a
camshaft driven hydraulic pump, but they stop nicely.



--
sig 122
 




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