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  #71  
Old June 11th 18, 05:36 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,224
Default Chain waxing

On Monday, June 11, 2018 at 7:35:24 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-10 11:03, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, June 10, 2018 at 9:49:56 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-10 08:01, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, June 10, 2018 at 7:36:02 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-09 16:22, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, June 9, 2018 at 8:04:24 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-08 10:06, jbeattie wrote:

[...]

... She was up at like 2:00 AM this morning going through
all my buckets in the garage . . . totally ****ed off at
the condition of some of my bike cleaning brushes. So I
asked her about the dust under the refrigerator . . .
"have you seen that . . . have you? How could any
self-respecting wife allow that disgusting accumulation?
And your hair in the drain! It's like stringy snot! I
want a divorce!"


When making bacon and eggs this morning I mentioned a li'l
grease spot on the range from yesterday. When I came home
late from a fun MTB ride and she still made a very nice
dinner. That didn't go over very well :-)

Most women are neat freaks while most men would become
real slobs if they weren't married to them.


Have you seen Lou's garage? You could do surgery on the
floor without fear of infection.


Is this the guy who ride a bike with only a front brake?


My wife has been very patient with the mess I made in the
family room downstairs. I've been watching movies and doing
heavy bike maintenance for the fleet which doubled when my
son moved in after his injury.


I'd be hearing about that every day. Though she has accepted
that I ride on dirt trails a lot and that there is a fair
amount of "trail debris" under the MTB in the garage. As long
as none of it moves on its own.


I just got back from Universal where I bought a liter of
Shimano mineral oil for the hydraulic brakes. It was $4 more
than buying 50ml from Bike Gallery. Incroyable -- $17.99 for
50ml. Even from Western, it's $12.75 for 50ml. You can get
1,000ml for anywhere from $18-22 low street price. I didn't
even bother price matching at Universal and paid $22. I'll
never use all that mineral oil, but I couldn't bear spending
so much for 50ml. Maybe I'll sell the left overs on the disk
brake black market.


Sounds like the rip-off with brake pads. The LBS wants $16 for
a pair of cheap resin pads while I buy nice ceramic-based ones
for around $2/pair from China, in bulk. Well, as long as there
is no brake pad tariff. The pads at the LBS are most likely
also made in China, if not at the same factory.

An oil change on a Rohloff hub would cost you about the same as
an oil change on a car:

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/tools/ro...-8410/?geoc=US





There must be huge profit margins on this stuff and of course they all
try to make you captive by requiring to buy at the company
store or the warranty is toast.


By the way, I tried to buy $9 worth of hydraulic mineral oil
made by Finish Line, and the guys at Bike Gallery (who I
really like and have been good to me), basically swatted my
hand away, saying that Shimano was the only way to go. I
think either (1) Shimano has everyone cowed, or (2) Finish
Line needs better PR. I think Shimano actually claims that
the warranty on the hydraulic discs is voided if you use
non-Shimano magical oil.


I wonder if they'd do a full forensic investigation with each
$100 warranty claim to find out which oil was used, who sold
it, whether some sort of embargo was breached and whether the
goons need to be sent out.

My brakes are simple, they use DOT3 or DOT4 like the ones in
our cars do. The quantity needs costs pennies.

Shimano made the decision to go with mineral oil for the road
discs, which was a legitimate choice, and considering the fill
volumes, it saves a lot of waste DOT fluid that absorbs water and
has to be tossed. DOT fluid is nasty on paint, etc. I can be
sloppy with mineral oil -- use it for massage, laxative, etc.,
etc. It's multipurpose.


DOT has much better performance when things get hot. Which they do
on an MTB. Water boils off if you let it. So far I didn't have to
change my fluid, just top off a wee bit. It is aggressive towards
paint but not that aggressive. Paint is the last thing I'd worry
about on my bikes.

When doing fluid jobs on the brakes one has to be careful. I never
spilled a drop. That's one of the jobs syringes where invented
for.


Actually, Shimano mineral oil has a higher boiling point than any DOT
fluid, and it never changes boiling point.
https://bikerumor.com/2013/04/11/tec...-disc-updated/

Scroll to the bottom. It's expensive, but it doesn't go bad -- so
that's a plus. I hate having cans or bags of stuff that you have to
throw away because they absorb water, like plaster and setting joint
compounds, cement, etc.


Quote (from your link): "An important point about the hygroscopic nature
of DOT Fluid is that by absorbing the water into the fluid it is
preventing pockets of water from forming that remain separate from the
fluid in the system. Water is heavier and settles to the lowest point
in the system, such as the caliper. This means that while the boiling
point of the mineral oil remains high, the boiling point of the system
is now that of water, only 100C/212F".

That where the problem is. The caliper is where things get hot.


I use a syringe, but I do get drips and drabs from the fill port or
the lever port. Not much. You just wipe it off.


Water in DOT boils out. That's what happens in the open systems on motor
vehicles. Unfortunately bikes don't have those but if you were truly
concerned about having to recycle that miniscule quantity you could just
boil it off.

Anyhow, I would not mind a Shimano brake system because I don't ride
that hard (anymore). However, having seen a guy in front of me lose his
front brake on a long downhill was a sobering lesson.


Why did he lose his front brake? What sort of fluid was he using? Did he have a leaking lever or caliper? Good pads (organic or metalic)?

I don't do super-crazy, dangerous gnarly mountain biking, so I can't speak to what is needed there, but mineral oil has proved to be more than adequate for my road/gravel discs. Shimano also manages heat with its "Ice tech" rotors and finned pads (still not going to lick my rotors after a descent). Plus, for road riding, ordinary rim brakes are fine. I prefer discs in the rain, which was all my riding this weekend. Braking was the least of my concerns. I was much more worried about traction, particularly after a long dry spell.


-- Jay Beattie.

Ads
  #72  
Old June 11th 18, 05:52 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,304
Default Chain waxing

On 2018-06-11 08:05, Duane wrote:
On 11/06/2018 10:46 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-11 05:13, Duane wrote:
On 09/06/2018 11:07 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-08 10:30, Duane wrote:
On 08/06/2018 12:17 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-08 07:59, Duane wrote:
On 08/06/2018 10:36 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-07 17:02, sms wrote:
On 6/6/2018 7:35 AM, Joerg wrote:

snip

I clean my chain thoroughly using interdental toothbrushes. My
wive
found a brand at Costco that is more rigid than the usual ones
so the
job goes faster now. First used for my teeth, then later some
day for
a chain. Afterwards scrubbing with an old regular toothbrush,
followed
by a good wipe-down with Kleenex. Once the chain is really
shiny I
apply White Lightning Epic Ride. If you shake the bottle well the
waxy
stuff in it dissolves and thus gets onto the chain as well. I
use a
Q-Tip to dab it onlto the links, then gently wipe off any excess
with
a Kleenex.

That way a road bike chain can run 150-250mi between cleanings
depending on whether I ride more roads or more bike paths. Gets
dirtier on roads. 40-50mi on the MTB, mostly on dirt trails. The
upside is that this method does not require me to take the chain
off
the bike which I would really dread.

OMG, is anyone really spending that much time on chain
maintenance?!

Get yourself a Park chain cleaner (or some other brand).
Fill it with kerosene and run the chain through it. Repeat with
clean
solvent until the chain runs clean.

Unless the chain is in the solvent, and moving, you won't get it
clean
on the inside.

When it's clean, lubricate it with a foaming chain lube.


So how long does that process take? And I mean with clean-up
including
the cleaning of the tools used. For most of those of us who are
married clean-up is necessary, we can just leave the stuff
sitting on
some bench.


The bike is already on the stand for washing.


Last time I washed my road bike was ... ahm ... nineteen-sumpthin.
The
MTB doesn't get washed either, it just wouldn't make sense.



The problems you have with equipment failure start to make sense...


The BB would not have failed if I had hit it with the pressure washer
after every ride. Yeah, right.



WTF are you talking about? I don't wash my bike with a pressure washer
and I don't wash my bike after every ride.

I'm saying if you don't take care of your equipment and you seem to
complain more than anyone of your equipment not lasting.


Maybe you haven't noticed yet but I meticulously clean the chain and
everything in the drive train every 50mi on the MTB and about every
200mi on the road bike. Afterwards there is a substantial amount of
oily debris in the table on which the bikes standsi during this
procedure. This debris isn't chucked into the landscape but properly
disposed of via broom and trash can.


Properly disposed of how? The local landfill?



Correct.


... You do understand that
there are biodegradable options for chain oil right?


You do understand how long bio-degradation can take and that it can be
very unhealthy for birds and othrs to pick up that stuff a day later, right?


Whether there are mud spatters under the downtube has no bearing
whatsoever on the longevity of bike components.


So after years ( 18 I think you said) of not washing your bike there is
only some mud under the down tube? Amazing.


I enjoy free bike washes at regular intervals in winter. Hint: It might
be amazing to you but it does indeed rain once in a while out here.



... I have a pan in my shed
with a bottle of degreaser (not kerosene but something
biodegradable)
and the Park chain cleaner in the pan. Takes a few minutes to
fill up
the tool and run the chain through it. The pan catches the slosh. I
don't usually change the degreaser. A couple minutes in the chain
cleaner works well enough for me. Hose out everything and let it
dry
while the bike is drying. Certainly takes less time than what you
describe with the toothbrushes.


Well, yeah, if you just put the bath, the pan and so on back on the
shelf as is. Not gonna happen here.



You missed the part about hose everything down and let it dry with the
bike. Cleanup doesn't take any time.


Hose down the bath container? That would get you into trouble with
environmental watchdogs some day.


What bath? Comprends-tu biodegradeable?


I do not consider the black oily gunk coming off my chain, sprockets,
rollers and chain rings to be good for the environment.


Maybe you should consider the possibility that not everyone has black
oily gunk on their drive train.



Every rider I know does after a few dozen miles.


... What do you use for the chain? Motor oil?


White Lightning Epic Ride.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #73  
Old June 11th 18, 06:00 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,304
Default Chain waxing

On 2018-06-11 08:39, David Scheidt wrote:
Joerg wrote:

:Water in DOT boils out. That's what happens in the open systems on motor
:vehicles. Unfortunately bikes don't have those but if you were truly

What motor vehicle has a brake system open to atmosphere? It ain't
the fifties, man. They're sealed systems. Have been for decades.


What do you think that little hole is for?

https://i.stack.imgur.com/lFHT8.jpg


Brake fluid
in motor vehicle systems is not recirculated much, and the the fluid
that's in the calipers tends to stay in the calipers. It is not at
all unusual to discover a caliper is full of water, while the fluid at
the master cylinder is normal.


That would be a vehicle in a very harsh state of neglect. Probably sat
in a yard for a couple of decades. Water is supposed to mix with the
brake fluid which is why that's DOT and not oil. This lowers the boiling
point but when it does begin to become hot the boil-off can vent out the
top. With a closed system on a bicycle it can't and you have to do that
manually. I have to "burp" my MTB brakes about once a year. Takes a few
minutes, no big deal. The amount of air in there by then is miniscule
but I like the brakes to have a nice hard pressure point.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #74  
Old June 11th 18, 06:03 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 168
Default Chain waxing

On 11/06/2018 12:52 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-11 08:05, Duane wrote:
On 11/06/2018 10:46 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-11 05:13, Duane wrote:
On 09/06/2018 11:07 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-08 10:30, Duane wrote:
On 08/06/2018 12:17 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-08 07:59, Duane wrote:
On 08/06/2018 10:36 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-07 17:02, sms wrote:
On 6/6/2018 7:35 AM, Joerg wrote:

snip

I clean my chain thoroughly using interdental toothbrushes. My
wive
found a brand at Costco that is more rigid than the usual ones
so the
job goes faster now. First used for my teeth, then later some
day for
a chain. Afterwards scrubbing with an old regular toothbrush,
followed
by a good wipe-down with Kleenex. Once the chain is really
shiny I
apply White Lightning Epic Ride. If you shake the bottle well
the
waxy
stuff in it dissolves and thus gets onto the chain as well. I
use a
Q-Tip to dab it onlto the links, then gently wipe off any excess
with
a Kleenex.

That way a road bike chain can run 150-250mi between cleanings
depending on whether I ride more roads or more bike paths. Gets
dirtier on roads. 40-50mi on the MTB, mostly on dirt trails. The
upside is that this method does not require me to take the chain
off
the bike which I would really dread.

OMG, is anyone really spending that much time on chain
maintenance?!

Get yourself a Park chain cleaner (or some other brand).
Fill it with kerosene and run the chain through it. Repeat with
clean
solvent until the chain runs clean.

Unless the chain is in the solvent, and moving, you won't get it
clean
on the inside.

When it's clean, lubricate it with a foaming chain lube.


So how long does that process take? And I mean with clean-up
including
the cleaning of the tools used. For most of those of us who are
married clean-up is necessary, we can just leave the stuff
sitting on
some bench.


The bike is already on the stand for washing.


Last time I washed my road bike was ... ahm ... nineteen-sumpthin.
The
MTB doesn't get washed either, it just wouldn't make sense.



The problems you have with equipment failure start to make sense...


The BB would not have failed if I had hit it with the pressure washer
after every ride. Yeah, right.



WTF are you talking about?* I don't wash my bike with a pressure washer
and I don't wash my bike after every ride.

I'm saying if you don't take care of your equipment and you seem to
complain more than anyone of your equipment not lasting.


Maybe you haven't noticed yet but I meticulously clean the chain and
everything in the drive train every 50mi on the MTB and about every
200mi on the road bike. Afterwards there is a substantial amount of
oily debris in the table on which the bikes standsi during this
procedure. This debris isn't chucked into the landscape but properly
disposed of via broom and trash can.


Properly disposed of how?* The local landfill?



Correct.


************************* *** ... You do understand that
there are biodegradable options for chain oil right?


You do understand how long bio-degradation can take and that it can be
very unhealthy for birds and othrs to pick up that stuff a day later,
right?



And your landfill is bird safe? Your logic is hard to follow. Better
to use non bio stuff and dump it in the landfill?

Whether there are mud spatters under the downtube has no bearing
whatsoever on the longevity of bike components.


So after years ( 18 I think you said) of not washing your bike there is
only some mud under the down tube?* Amazing.


I enjoy free bike washes at regular intervals in winter. Hint: It might
be amazing to you but it does indeed rain once in a while out here.



************************* ************ ... I have a pan in my shed
with a bottle of degreaser (not kerosene but something
biodegradable)
and the Park chain cleaner in the pan.* Takes a few minutes to
fill up
the tool and run the chain through it.* The pan catches the
slosh. I
don't usually change the degreaser.* A couple minutes in the chain
cleaner works well enough for me.* Hose out everything and let it
dry
while the bike is drying.* Certainly takes less time than what you
describe with the toothbrushes.


Well, yeah, if you just put the bath, the pan and so on back on the
shelf as is. Not gonna happen here.



You missed the part about hose everything down and let it dry with
the
bike.* Cleanup doesn't take any time.


Hose down the bath container? That would get you into trouble with
environmental watchdogs some day.


What bath?* Comprends-tu biodegradeable?


I do not consider the black oily gunk coming off my chain, sprockets,
rollers and chain rings to be good for the environment.


Maybe you should consider the possibility that not everyone has black
oily gunk on their drive train.



Every rider I know does after a few dozen miles.


*... What do you use for the chain?* Motor oil?


White Lightning Epic Ride.


Never used it. Finish Line Dry works for me. I don't tend to get much
"gunk" with regular maintenance.
  #75  
Old June 11th 18, 06:04 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,224
Default Chain waxing

On Monday, June 11, 2018 at 7:40:33 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-10 14:01, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, June 9, 2018 at 8:07:29 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-08 10:30, Duane wrote:
On 08/06/2018 12:17 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-08 07:59, Duane wrote:
On 08/06/2018 10:36 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-07 17:02, sms wrote:
On 6/6/2018 7:35 AM, Joerg wrote:

snip

I clean my chain thoroughly using interdental
toothbrushes. My wive found a brand at Costco that is
more rigid than the usual ones so the job goes faster
now. First used for my teeth, then later some day for a
chain. Afterwards scrubbing with an old regular
toothbrush, followed by a good wipe-down with Kleenex.
Once the chain is really shiny I apply White Lightning
Epic Ride. If you shake the bottle well the waxy stuff
in it dissolves and thus gets onto the chain as well. I
use a Q-Tip to dab it onlto the links, then gently wipe
off any excess with a Kleenex.

That way a road bike chain can run 150-250mi between
cleanings depending on whether I ride more roads or
more bike paths. Gets dirtier on roads. 40-50mi on the
MTB, mostly on dirt trails. The upside is that this
method does not require me to take the chain off the
bike which I would really dread.

OMG, is anyone really spending that much time on chain
maintenance?!

Get yourself a Park chain cleaner (or some other brand).
Fill it with kerosene and run the chain through it.
Repeat with clean solvent until the chain runs clean.

Unless the chain is in the solvent, and moving, you won't
get it clean on the inside.

When it's clean, lubricate it with a foaming chain lube.


So how long does that process take? And I mean with
clean-up including the cleaning of the tools used. For most
of those of us who are married clean-up is necessary, we
can just leave the stuff sitting on some bench.


The bike is already on the stand for washing.


Last time I washed my road bike was ... ahm ...
nineteen-sumpthin. The MTB doesn't get washed either, it just
wouldn't make sense.



The problems you have with equipment failure start to make
sense...


The BB would not have failed if I had hit it with the pressure
washer after every ride. Yeah, right.


I believe he uses a garden hose and not a 5000psi pressure washer.
Ever watched the pros clean bikes (road and MTB)? Hose, suds, hose,
etc., etc. Garden hoses are SOP. If your BB seals can't hack that,
you need a different BB.


I have seen high-pend MTB where they did not (!) provide a weep hole
below the BB. Couldn't believe it at first.



... I have a pan in my shed with a bottle of degreaser (not
kerosene but something biodegradable) and the Park chain
cleaner in the pan. Takes a few minutes to fill up the tool
and run the chain through it. The pan catches the slosh. I
don't usually change the degreaser. A couple minutes in the
chain cleaner works well enough for me. Hose out everything
and let it dry while the bike is drying. Certainly takes
less time than what you describe with the toothbrushes.


Well, yeah, if you just put the bath, the pan and so on back on
the shelf as is. Not gonna happen here.



You missed the part about hose everything down and let it dry
with the bike. Cleanup doesn't take any time.


Hose down the bath container? That would get you into trouble with
environmental watchdogs some day.


He said it was biodegradable.


I wonder what the Federales would have to say about that.


Do you really think the US EPA cares about when you hose off your chain? Incroyable. Why don't you just say "I prefer to soak my chain in kerosene and dump that somewhere" rather than using a biodegradable cleaner.



Just say "I don't wash my bikes" and don't try to make it impossible.
People do it all the time -- even married people and city folk.


I never said that. I just indicated that I find washing an MTB not to be
a very productive task. 10mi later it's dirty again so what is the point
of washing it?


Just say that -- and not that the EPA or your wife or the tinfoil-hat brigade precludes more frequent or different washing. That's weird.

-- Jay Beattie.

PS -- I've cleaned my bike with everything under the sun and never faced an EPA enforcement action.
  #76  
Old June 11th 18, 06:16 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,304
Default Chain waxing

On 2018-06-11 09:36, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, June 11, 2018 at 7:35:24 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-10 11:03, jbeattie wrote:


[...]


I use a syringe, but I do get drips and drabs from the fill port
or the lever port. Not much. You just wipe it off.


Water in DOT boils out. That's what happens in the open systems on
motor vehicles. Unfortunately bikes don't have those but if you
were truly concerned about having to recycle that miniscule
quantity you could just boil it off.

Anyhow, I would not mind a Shimano brake system because I don't
ride that hard (anymore). However, having seen a guy in front of me
lose his front brake on a long downhill was a sobering lesson.


Why did he lose his front brake? What sort of fluid was he using? Did
he have a leaking lever or caliper? Good pads (organic or metalic)?


I don't remember. He said the lever suddenly pulled all the way to the
handlebar and braking on the front was completely lost. After resting a
while after that sort of shock it had come back.


I don't do super-crazy, dangerous gnarly mountain biking, so I can't
speak to what is needed there, but mineral oil has proved to be more
than adequate for my road/gravel discs.



For a road bike or CX I would not mind at all. For a new road bike I'd
even consider cable disc brakes but not rim brakes. Even for my MTB
riding non-DOT disc brakes would be ok because on the rare occasions
where I do very long and curvy descents I stop here and there to take in
a nice view. I am a trail rider, not a downhill bomber. In fact, a
Shomano brake set is on my shopping list in case the PRomax Deciphers
ever give up. So far they just don't.

For serious downhill riding I'd always recommend DOT-brakes.


... Shimano also manages heat
with its "Ice tech" rotors and finned pads (still not going to lick
my rotors after a descent).



Well, I don't want to spend lots of money on fancy mitigation measures
just because the brake fluid type is sub-par. I use Shimano SM-RT66
8-inch rotors front and back on the MTB. The brakes are Promax Decipher
with DOT-4 and the pads are ceramic-based from Hangzhou-Novic. Way more
brake power than I ever need.


... Plus, for road riding, ordinary rim
brakes are fine.



As long as it does not rain or hail hard, then they are the pits.


... I prefer discs in the rain, which was all my riding
this weekend. Braking was the least of my concerns. I was much more
worried about traction, particularly after a long dry spell.


When I saw a stand of poison oak at the last second on Friday I was sure
glad I had powerful disc brakes. I still did brush against some and have
a slight rash here and there but with weaker brakes that would have been
a different story.

Last year it was a bit more drastic, same singletrack. Saw a big fat
rattlesnake at the last second. Whew. If you can't brake hard there it
could mean weeks of misery and thousands in co-pay for the expensive
antivenom.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #77  
Old June 11th 18, 06:56 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 255
Default Chain waxing

On Sunday, June 10, 2018 at 4:36:02 PM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-09 16:22, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, June 9, 2018 at 8:04:24 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-08 10:06, jbeattie wrote:


[...]

... She was up at like 2:00 AM this morning going through all my
buckets in the garage . . . totally ****ed off at the condition
of some of my bike cleaning brushes. So I asked her about the
dust under the refrigerator . . . "have you seen that . . . have
you? How could any self-respecting wife allow that disgusting
accumulation? And your hair in the drain! It's like stringy
snot! I want a divorce!"


When making bacon and eggs this morning I mentioned a li'l grease
spot on the range from yesterday. When I came home late from a fun
MTB ride and she still made a very nice dinner. That didn't go over
very well :-)

Most women are neat freaks while most men would become real slobs
if they weren't married to them.


Have you seen Lou's garage? You could do surgery on the floor
without fear of infection.


Is this the guy who ride a bike with only a front brake?


Yep, the same guy who knows what he is doing, buying high quality stuff, takes care of his stuff and has an excellent trackrecord in not breaking equipment.

Lou
  #78  
Old June 11th 18, 07:29 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
David Scheidt
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,253
Default Chain waxing

Joerg wrote:
:On 2018-06-11 08:39, David Scheidt wrote:
: Joerg wrote:
:
: :Water in DOT boils out. That's what happens in the open systems on motor
: :vehicles. Unfortunately bikes don't have those but if you were truly
:
: What motor vehicle has a brake system open to atmosphere? It ain't
: the fifties, man. They're sealed systems. Have been for decades.
:


:What do you think that little hole is for?

What do you think the diaphragm is for?

:https://i.stack.imgur.com/lFHT8.jpg

That's a cap for a clutch master cylinder, but the principal is the
same. the rubber diaphragm is in contact with the fluid, kepeing the
system sealed. the hole in
the cap lets the air in and out of the air space between the air tight
rubber gasket and the cap. That lets the fluid level flucuate with
temperature or air pressure changes, etc, while still keepoing a
sealed system. Brake systems open to the atmoshpere went out with the
60s.

Bikes, by the way, use the same system:
https://www.parktool.com/assets/img/...gure_11-12.jpg


: Brake fluid
: in motor vehicle systems is not recirculated much, and the the fluid
: that's in the calipers tends to stay in the calipers. It is not at
: all unusual to discover a caliper is full of water, while the fluid at
: the master cylinder is normal.
:

:That would be a vehicle in a very harsh state of neglect. Probably sat
:in a yard for a couple of decades. Water is supposed to mix with the
:brake fluid which is why that's DOT and not oil. This lowers the boiling

Brake fluid only carries a small amount of water, when that is
exceeded, you have water and water-logged brake fluid. Because there is
very little actual movement of fluid in conventional juice brakes, if
the fluid in the caliper is overwhelmed, it seperates out, even if the
amount of water involved is low enough the fluid volume of the whole
system would carry it. It requires neglect or abuse, but I've seen it
on working trucks.


--
sig 74
  #79  
Old June 11th 18, 07:35 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,044
Default Chain waxing

On 6/11/2018 1:16 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-11 09:36, jbeattie wrote:

********************* ... Plus, for road riding, ordinary rim
brakes are fine.



As long as it does not rain or hail hard, then they are the pits.


Oh, Gawd.

I and my club mates don't live in a desert. Everyone in our club has
used rim brakes since they started cycling, and all but a very few still
do. We've ridden in countless rains, from showers to thunderstorms,
countless miles. I've been club safety chairman for decades and I hear
about the crashes. I've never heard of one caused by inadequate braking
in the rain. Never.

This is a non-issue for almost all road cyclists. It's the current big
"you _gotta_ have this!" item for the bike industry, so they can churn
bike inventory. But in real life, it's no more necessary than magic
daytime blinkies or funny plastic hats or aerodynamic sunglasses.

*********** ... I prefer discs in the rain, which was all my riding
this weekend.* Braking was the least of my concerns.* I was much more
worried about traction, particularly after a long dry spell.


When I saw a stand of poison oak at the last second on Friday I was sure
glad I had powerful disc brakes. I still did brush against some and have
a slight rash here and there but with weaker brakes that would have been
a different story.


Horrors!

"Only disc brakes can save you from itching!!!"

Last year it was a bit more drastic, same singletrack. Saw a big fat
rattlesnake at the last second. Whew. If you can't brake hard there it
could mean weeks of misery and thousands in co-pay for the expensive
antivenom.


Is this another Joergian game of "Worst Case Scenario"??


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #80  
Old June 11th 18, 11:02 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,304
Default Chain waxing

On 2018-06-11 11:29, David Scheidt wrote:
Joerg wrote:
:On 2018-06-11 08:39, David Scheidt wrote:
: Joerg wrote:
:
: :Water in DOT boils out. That's what happens in the open systems on motor
: :vehicles. Unfortunately bikes don't have those but if you were truly
:
: What motor vehicle has a brake system open to atmosphere? It ain't
: the fifties, man. They're sealed systems. Have been for decades.
:


:What do you think that little hole is for?

What do you think the diaphragm is for?

:https://i.stack.imgur.com/lFHT8.jpg


It separates one air volume from another (from the big one). But air is
air is air.

IOW if air bubbles boil up in a car's brake system they have a chance to
exit the fluid and hiss into the air between the reservoir level and the
diaphragm. On bikes that regions simply isn't there.


That's a cap for a clutch master cylinder, but the principal is the
same. the rubber diaphragm is in contact with the fluid, kepeing the
system sealed. the hole in
the cap lets the air in and out of the air space between the air tight
rubber gasket and the cap. That lets the fluid level flucuate with
temperature or air pressure changes, etc, while still keepoing a
sealed system. Brake systems open to the atmoshpere went out with the
60s.

Bikes, by the way, use the same system:
https://www.parktool.com/assets/img/...gure_11-12.jpg


You will notice that the fluid goes all the way to the diaphragm, there
is no air underneath. Hence the "wet look". You either fill it to a high
level, gently put the diaphragm and cap back on and quickly clean off
the overflow (that's how I do it) or you leave the diaphragm on there
and instead top off at the upper bleed screw. The key is topping off.

In contrast, on a car you are not allowed to top off the reservoir,
there is a min and a max fill level. The level is not allowed to get to
the diaphragm whereas with bikes it's supposed to.


: Brake fluid
: in motor vehicle systems is not recirculated much, and the the fluid
: that's in the calipers tends to stay in the calipers. It is not at
: all unusual to discover a caliper is full of water, while the fluid at
: the master cylinder is normal.
:

:That would be a vehicle in a very harsh state of neglect. Probably sat
:in a yard for a couple of decades. Water is supposed to mix with the
:brake fluid which is why that's DOT and not oil. This lowers the boiling

Brake fluid only carries a small amount of water, when that is
exceeded, you have water and water-logged brake fluid. Because there is
very little actual movement of fluid in conventional juice brakes, if
the fluid in the caliper is overwhelmed, it seperates out, even if the
amount of water involved is low enough the fluid volume of the whole
system would carry it. It requires neglect or abuse, but I've seen it
on working trucks.


Key is that air bubbles can vent off either into the outside air or a
sizeable room below a diaphragm. On a motor vehicle it can, on a bicycle
it can't.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
 




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