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  #81  
Old June 11th 18, 11:09 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
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Posts: 5,137
Default Chain waxing

On 2018-06-11 11:35, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/11/2018 1:16 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-11 09:36, jbeattie wrote:

... Plus, for road riding, ordinary rim
brakes are fine.



As long as it does not rain or hail hard, then they are the pits.


Oh, Gawd.

I and my club mates don't live in a desert. Everyone in our club has
used rim brakes since they started cycling, and all but a very few still
do. We've ridden in countless rains, from showers to thunderstorms,
countless miles. I've been club safety chairman for decades and I hear
about the crashes. I've never heard of one caused by inadequate braking
in the rain. Never.

This is a non-issue for almost all road cyclists. It's the current big
"you _gotta_ have this!" item for the bike industry, so they can churn
bike inventory. But in real life, it's no more necessary than magic
daytime blinkies or funny plastic hats or aerodynamic sunglasses.


You obviously are not a real all-weather rider. With all-weather I mean
including full-bore hail storms, downhill and no shelter until you get
to the next tunnel. Sure one can manage, I did by letting the brakes rub
a bit all the time. Which is really healthy for the rims. With discs I
simply do not have to concern myself with this, they always work.

Rim braking is a technology they used in the days of the chuck wagon and
that's where it belongs.


... I prefer discs in the rain, which was all my riding
this weekend. Braking was the least of my concerns. I was much more
worried about traction, particularly after a long dry spell.


When I saw a stand of poison oak at the last second on Friday I was
sure glad I had powerful disc brakes. I still did brush against some
and have a slight rash here and there but with weaker brakes that
would have been a different story.


Horrors!

"Only disc brakes can save you from itching!!!"


I guess you never had poison oak rash. I had it half a dozen times,
sometimes it looked like my lower arms would die off.


Last year it was a bit more drastic, same singletrack. Saw a big fat
rattlesnake at the last second. Whew. If you can't brake hard there it
could mean weeks of misery and thousands in co-pay for the expensive
antivenom.


Is this another Joergian game of "Worst Case Scenario"??


No, it happened in real life, on the El Dorado Trail about 2mi north of
Latrobe, CA. It was a big old full size rattler.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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  #82  
Old June 11th 18, 11:14 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
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Posts: 5,137
Default Chain waxing

On 2018-06-11 10:04, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, June 11, 2018 at 7:40:33 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-10 14:01, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, June 9, 2018 at 8:07:29 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-08 10:30, Duane wrote:
On 08/06/2018 12:17 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-08 07:59, Duane wrote:
On 08/06/2018 10:36 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-07 17:02, sms wrote:
On 6/6/2018 7:35 AM, Joerg wrote:

snip

I clean my chain thoroughly using interdental
toothbrushes. My wive found a brand at Costco that
is more rigid than the usual ones so the job goes
faster now. First used for my teeth, then later
some day for a chain. Afterwards scrubbing with an
old regular toothbrush, followed by a good
wipe-down with Kleenex. Once the chain is really
shiny I apply White Lightning Epic Ride. If you
shake the bottle well the waxy stuff in it
dissolves and thus gets onto the chain as well. I
use a Q-Tip to dab it onlto the links, then gently
wipe off any excess with a Kleenex.

That way a road bike chain can run 150-250mi
between cleanings depending on whether I ride more
roads or more bike paths. Gets dirtier on roads.
40-50mi on the MTB, mostly on dirt trails. The
upside is that this method does not require me to
take the chain off the bike which I would really
dread.

OMG, is anyone really spending that much time on
chain maintenance?!

Get yourself a Park chain cleaner (or some other
brand). Fill it with kerosene and run the chain
through it. Repeat with clean solvent until the chain
runs clean.

Unless the chain is in the solvent, and moving, you
won't get it clean on the inside.

When it's clean, lubricate it with a foaming chain
lube.


So how long does that process take? And I mean with
clean-up including the cleaning of the tools used. For
most of those of us who are married clean-up is
necessary, we can just leave the stuff sitting on some
bench.


The bike is already on the stand for washing.


Last time I washed my road bike was ... ahm ...
nineteen-sumpthin. The MTB doesn't get washed either, it
just wouldn't make sense.



The problems you have with equipment failure start to make
sense...


The BB would not have failed if I had hit it with the pressure
washer after every ride. Yeah, right.

I believe he uses a garden hose and not a 5000psi pressure
washer. Ever watched the pros clean bikes (road and MTB)? Hose,
suds, hose, etc., etc. Garden hoses are SOP. If your BB seals
can't hack that, you need a different BB.


I have seen high-pend MTB where they did not (!) provide a weep
hole below the BB. Couldn't believe it at first.



... I have a pan in my shed with a bottle of degreaser
(not kerosene but something biodegradable) and the Park
chain cleaner in the pan. Takes a few minutes to fill up
the tool and run the chain through it. The pan catches
the slosh. I don't usually change the degreaser. A
couple minutes in the chain cleaner works well enough for
me. Hose out everything and let it dry while the bike is
drying. Certainly takes less time than what you describe
with the toothbrushes.


Well, yeah, if you just put the bath, the pan and so on
back on the shelf as is. Not gonna happen here.



You missed the part about hose everything down and let it
dry with the bike. Cleanup doesn't take any time.


Hose down the bath container? That would get you into trouble
with environmental watchdogs some day.

He said it was biodegradable.


I wonder what the Federales would have to say about that.


Do you really think the US EPA cares about when you hose off your
chain? Incroyable.



Of course not. I am simply not a guy who carelessly chucks all his s..t
into the environment.

However, if a large bike shop did that on a regular basis out in their
backyard and somebody saw this they'd soon have the goons there,
prontissimo. And should.


... Why don't you just say "I prefer to soak my chain
in kerosene and dump that somewhere" rather than using a
biodegradable cleaner.


Because I don't think that is environmentally good either even if you
then dispose off properly at the oil refuse places.



Just say "I don't wash my bikes" and don't try to make it
impossible. People do it all the time -- even married people and
city folk.


I never said that. I just indicated that I find washing an MTB not
to be a very productive task. 10mi later it's dirty again so what
is the point of washing it?


Just say that -- and not that the EPA or your wife or the tinfoil-hat
brigade precludes more frequent or different washing. That's weird.


??

-- Jay Beattie.

PS -- I've cleaned my bike with everything under the sun and never
faced an EPA enforcement action.


They don't enforce much with individuals. Even when people let their old
motor oil soak into a creek bed they won't care. Because they don't know.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #83  
Old June 11th 18, 11:18 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
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Posts: 5,137
Default Chain waxing

On 2018-06-11 10:03, Duane wrote:
On 11/06/2018 12:52 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-11 08:05, Duane wrote:


[...]

... You do understand that
there are biodegradable options for chain oil right?


You do understand how long bio-degradation can take and that it can be
very unhealthy for birds and othrs to pick up that stuff a day later,
right?



And your landfill is bird safe? Your logic is hard to follow. Better
to use non bio stuff and dump it in the landfill?


It's supposed to be, a controlled and monitored environment. The
drainage ditch at the end of our driveway is not a controlled and
monitored environment.

[...]


... What do you use for the chain? Motor oil?


White Lightning Epic Ride.


Never used it. Finish Line Dry works for me. I don't tend to get much
"gunk" with regular maintenance.



Depends on where one ride. Segregated bike paths - no gunk, lube lasts
much longer. Lots of road - black gunk. Lots of singletrack - brown gunk.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #84  
Old June 11th 18, 11:23 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
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Posts: 5,137
Default Chain waxing

On 2018-06-10 22:55, Michael wrote:
On Wednesday, June 6, 2018 at 4:05:28 AM UTC-5, Tanguy Ortolo wrote:
Hello,

For those interested in this, after my last inquiry about chain
lubing, I decided to wax my chain by immersing it in a hot mixture
of solid and liquid paraffin (with a ratio of 50% of paraffin
oil).

After about 600 km, including some significant rain,, must say it
works pretty well. My chain still runs smoothly, and is almost
perfectly clean. When needed, I can simply wipe it with some paper
towel. I do not know yet when I will have to wax it again, but it
seems to hold pretty well.

-- Tanguy


Using chain wax sounds great, but what about the old-fashioned
Boeshield T-9? It's supposed to be waterproof.


Interesting question. It costs more than Epic Ride but does anyone know
whether it lasts longer and by how much?

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #85  
Old June 11th 18, 11:25 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
James[_8_]
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Posts: 5,724
Default Chain waxing

On 12/06/18 04:35, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/11/2018 1:16 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-11 09:36, jbeattie wrote:

********************* ... Plus, for road riding, ordinary rim
brakes are fine.



As long as it does not rain or hail hard, then they are the pits.


Oh, Gawd.

I and my club mates don't live in a desert. Everyone in our club has
used rim brakes since they started cycling, and all but a very few still
do. We've ridden in countless rains, from showers to thunderstorms,
countless miles. I've been club safety chairman for decades and I hear
about the crashes. I've never heard of one caused by inadequate braking
in the rain. Never.


Back in the days when Campag rim brakes were pretty ordinary in the dry,
my brother was racing in Italy. He recounts a day when they had a
descent in the rain and he just could not brake enough coming toward a
corner, so he put his arm around another racer's shoulders and called
"Campagnolo! Campagnolo!" The other rider understood and braked for
both of them enough to ride around the corner.

That must be why you have never heard of a crash caused by inadequate
braking in the rain. ;-)

[These days of course, Campag rim brakes seem to work well enough, wet
or dry.]

--
JS
  #86  
Old June 12th 18, 02:51 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
David Scheidt
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Posts: 1,233
Default Chain waxing

Joerg wrote:
:On 2018-06-11 11:29, David Scheidt wrote:
: Joerg wrote:
: :On 2018-06-11 08:39, David Scheidt wrote:
: : Joerg wrote:
: :
: : :Water in DOT boils out. That's what happens in the open systems on motor
: : :vehicles. Unfortunately bikes don't have those but if you were truly
: :
: : What motor vehicle has a brake system open to atmosphere? It ain't
: : the fifties, man. They're sealed systems. Have been for decades.
: :
:
:
: :What do you think that little hole is for?
:
: What do you think the diaphragm is for?
:
: :https://i.stack.imgur.com/lFHT8.jpg
:

:It separates one air volume from another (from the big one). But air is
:air is air.

:IOW if air bubbles boil up in a car's brake system they have a chance to
:exit the fluid and hiss into the air between the reservoir level and the
:diaphragm. On bikes that regions simply isn't there.


: That's a cap for a clutch master cylinder, but the principal is the
: same. the rubber diaphragm is in contact with the fluid, kepeing the
: system sealed. the hole in
: the cap lets the air in and out of the air space between the air tight
: rubber gasket and the cap. That lets the fluid level flucuate with
: temperature or air pressure changes, etc, while still keepoing a
: sealed system. Brake systems open to the atmoshpere went out with the
: 60s.
:
: Bikes, by the way, use the same system:
: https://www.parktool.com/assets/img/...gure_11-12.jpg
:

:You will notice that the fluid goes all the way to the diaphragm, there
:is no air underneath. Hence the "wet look". You either fill it to a high
:level, gently put the diaphragm and cap back on and quickly clean off
:the overflow (that's how I do it) or you leave the diaphragm on there
:and instead top off at the upper bleed screw. The key is topping off.

:In contrast, on a car you are not allowed to top off the reservoir,
:there is a min and a max fill level. The level is not allowed to get to
:the diaphragm whereas with bikes it's supposed to.

Joerg, I've replaced more brake master cylinders on more cars than you
have. The diaphragm is wetted. There may, or may not[1], be an air
space in the reservoir, but it's sealed from atmosphere. The only way
air or water gets across the barrier is via diffusion. There are min
and max levels, because if the level is too low, the system doesn't
work. If it's too high, excess is forced out the cap.

If ou have air in a bike system, if it can reach the reservoir, it can
stay there, as as in a car.

[1] cars can have an air gap, because the brakes arne't required to
work upside down, or even right side up after having been upside down,
while bike brakes are.

--
sig 57
  #87  
Old June 12th 18, 03:24 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 5,887
Default Chain waxing

On 6/11/2018 6:09 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-11 11:35, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/11/2018 1:16 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-11 09:36, jbeattie wrote:

********************* ... Plus, for road riding, ordinary rim
brakes are fine.


As long as it does not rain or hail hard, then they are the pits.


Oh, Gawd.

I and my club mates don't live in a desert. Everyone in our club has
used rim brakes since they started cycling, and all but a very few still
do. We've ridden in countless rains, from showers to thunderstorms,
countless miles. I've been club safety chairman for decades and I hear
about the crashes. I've never heard of one caused by inadequate braking
in the rain. Never.

This is a non-issue for almost all road cyclists. It's the current big
"you _gotta_ have this!" item for the bike industry, so they can churn
bike inventory. But in real life, it's no more necessary than magic
daytime blinkies or funny plastic hats or aerodynamic sunglasses.


You obviously are not a real all-weather rider. With all-weather I mean
including full-bore hail storms, downhill and no shelter until you get
to the next tunnel.


Neither of us is a "real all-weather rider." You've never ridden at 40
below zero, and neither have I.

But rain? I've done countless miles in rain. I don't like it and I try
to avoid it, but it happens. Two weeks ago I did a solo ride, shooting
for about 40 miles, but cut it short about 15 miles from home when
amazing storm clouds rolled in. I finished the ride in an extreme
downpour, one that caused flooding in the creek running through town. I
could have found shelter about five miles after the deluge started, but
I just rode on home.

Sure one can manage, I did by letting the brakes rub
a bit all the time. Which is really healthy for the rims.


I did nothing unusual with my brakes. The bike has cantilever brakes
with Kool-Stop pads; they worked fine.

Unlike you, my braking is not a constant series of "last second"
emergencies. On that ride, as on all others, I planned ahead and slowed
sufficiently with ease. I probably came to a complete stop only a few
times during that ride home.

Rim braking is a technology they used in the days of the chuck wagon and
that's where it belongs.


So we should send all the bikes with caliper brakes to the junkyard?
Bull****.

When I saw a stand of poison oak at the last second on Friday I was
sure glad I had powerful disc brakes. I still did brush against some
and have a slight rash here and there but with weaker brakes that
would have been a different story.


Horrors!

"Only disc brakes can save you from itching!!!"


I guess you never had poison oak rash. I had it half a dozen times,
sometimes it looked like my lower arms would die off.


I've had the rash, Joerg. I won't describe the worst incident, since it
involved some quasi-illegal activity; but I've had it from both wrists
up over the elbows, and many other places besides.

I've never had it from inadequate braking on any bicycle.

You're a fashion queen justifying your trendiness with horror stories.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #88  
Old June 12th 18, 03:34 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 5,887
Default Chain waxing

On 6/11/2018 6:25 PM, James wrote:
On 12/06/18 04:35, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/11/2018 1:16 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-11 09:36, jbeattie wrote:

********************* ... Plus, for road riding, ordinary rim
brakes are fine.


As long as it does not rain or hail hard, then they are the pits.


Oh, Gawd.

I and my club mates don't live in a desert. Everyone in our club has
used rim brakes since they started cycling, and all but a very few
still do. We've ridden in countless rains, from showers to
thunderstorms, countless miles. I've been club safety chairman for
decades and I hear about the crashes. I've never heard of one caused
by inadequate braking in the rain. Never.


Back in the days when Campag rim brakes were pretty ordinary in the dry,
my brother was racing in Italy.* He recounts a day when they had a
descent in the rain and he just could not brake enough coming toward a
corner, so he put his arm around another racer's shoulders and called
"Campagnolo! Campagnolo!"* The other rider understood and braked for
both of them enough to ride around the corner.

That must be why you have never heard of a crash caused by inadequate
braking in the rain. ;-)

[These days of course, Campag rim brakes seem to work well enough, wet
or dry.]


I wonder what brakes the other guy was using.

Back in Campy's glory days, I couldn't afford the stuff - or didn't feel
I should. Paying off loans and feeding kids was a much higher priority.
So I was running mostly SunTour stuff, or similar. At least it shifted
better than Campy.

My only bike back then was a Raleigh Super Course that I got used from a
friend. It came with long reach Weinmann center pulls. Their benefit was
that they cleared wide tires and fenders. Their detriment was that they
were worse than Campy brakes. The Weinmanns merely suggested to the bike
that it might consider stopping.

Eventually I had a friend do a repaint, and he and I brazed on
cantilever bosses. That's what I've happily used ever since.

And I still have the Raleigh. It's the utility bike now.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #89  
Old June 12th 18, 05:22 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 3,092
Default Chain waxing

On Monday, June 11, 2018 at 7:34:51 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/11/2018 6:25 PM, James wrote:
On 12/06/18 04:35, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/11/2018 1:16 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-11 09:36, jbeattie wrote:

********************* ... Plus, for road riding, ordinary rim
brakes are fine.


As long as it does not rain or hail hard, then they are the pits.

Oh, Gawd.

I and my club mates don't live in a desert. Everyone in our club has
used rim brakes since they started cycling, and all but a very few
still do. We've ridden in countless rains, from showers to
thunderstorms, countless miles. I've been club safety chairman for
decades and I hear about the crashes. I've never heard of one caused
by inadequate braking in the rain. Never.


Back in the days when Campag rim brakes were pretty ordinary in the dry,
my brother was racing in Italy.* He recounts a day when they had a
descent in the rain and he just could not brake enough coming toward a
corner, so he put his arm around another racer's shoulders and called
"Campagnolo! Campagnolo!"* The other rider understood and braked for
both of them enough to ride around the corner.

That must be why you have never heard of a crash caused by inadequate
braking in the rain. ;-)

[These days of course, Campag rim brakes seem to work well enough, wet
or dry.]


I wonder what brakes the other guy was using.

Back in Campy's glory days, I couldn't afford the stuff - or didn't feel
I should. Paying off loans and feeding kids was a much higher priority.
So I was running mostly SunTour stuff, or similar. At least it shifted
better than Campy.

My only bike back then was a Raleigh Super Course that I got used from a
friend. It came with long reach Weinmann center pulls. Their benefit was
that they cleared wide tires and fenders. Their detriment was that they
were worse than Campy brakes. The Weinmanns merely suggested to the bike
that it might consider stopping.

Eventually I had a friend do a repaint, and he and I brazed on
cantilever bosses. That's what I've happily used ever since.

And I still have the Raleigh. It's the utility bike now.


Campy brakes worked fine for me rain or shine, but I was also an early adopter of Mathauser/KoolStop pads. I prefer the additional power and lighter touch of dual pivot, but depending on the era, there were no better brakes. I preferred them to cantis and used NR brakes on my transcon bike. With the standard drop, there was plenty of room for fenders and a 28-32mm tire.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #90  
Old June 12th 18, 06:04 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
James[_8_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,724
Default Chain waxing

On 12/06/18 14:22, jbeattie wrote:


Campy brakes worked fine for me rain or shine, but I was also an
early adopter of Mathauser/KoolStop pads. I prefer the additional
power and lighter touch of dual pivot, but depending on the era,
there were no better brakes. I preferred them to cantis and used NR
brakes on my transcon bike. With the standard drop, there was plenty
of room for fenders and a 28-32mm tire.


Did you ever use these?

https://www.ebay.com.au/i/232761410101?chn=ps

And yes, the pads were _part_ of the problem, IIRC.

--
JS
 




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