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  #201  
Old April 10th 21, 03:12 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Radey Shouman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,747
Default Safety inflation

Sir Ridesalot writes:

On Thursday, April 8, 2021 at 2:51:49 p.m. UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/8/2021 12:16 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, April 8, 2021 at 8:24:12 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/8/2021 10:21 AM, sms wrote:

Ohio is obviously a very different place than Oregon or California.

Out on the left coast no one is scared of riding a bicycle if they lack
a fluorescent jersey.
But I'm betting the "safety" people are telling them they should be
wearing fluorescent clothing. And if things progress as they did with
helmets, states will begin considering, then passing Mandatory
Fluorescent Laws. Please note, that happened in France. Cyclists are
legally required to wear safety vests on rural roads at least under
certain conditions.
As to DRLs, it is true that the vast majority of transportational
cyclists do have DRLs on their bicycles, by default. It's not because
some mystery group told them to go out and buy one, the DRL came with
whatever bicycle light that they bought, whether at a bicycle shop or
online.
AFAIK, most of that paragraph is still false. But we know one of your
objectives is to make it true. Because one can never be too safe, right?

Were you beaten by a school crossing guard or something? What is
the genesis of this recent anti-safety jihad?

The genesis of my complaints is rationality. As you've just
demonstrated, if someone questions the value of any purported "safety"
measure, they are likely to be taunted as "anti-safety."
I ride most every day, and nobody bugs me about not having a DRL
or wearing a fluorescent jersey or really anything. I haven't seen
a bicycle safety message in years, although I'm not looking and
don't go to shops. Who are these "safety" people? Is this about
helmets? Did somebody criticize you for not wearing a helmet?

When I go skiing, the liftys are neurotic about masks -- and I was
mask shamed while out on a walk early in the pandemic, but that's
about it for safety scolding. My neighbor panics and scolds me
when I climb my 22' extension ladder because I'm an old dude and
in the demographic for falls.

And your response? By arguing with me, you seem to be defending your
local nannies.
Ah, I have fallen prey to the walking safety thing, but not
because of warnings or messages from regulators. My wife and I got
reflective vests for walking at night because the Ninja walkers
scare the snot out of us when we're driving at night -- and we
have a ton of walkers in our neighborhood. Their are nights when
it feels like a street fair with everyone standing in the street
yaking or walking their dogs. I really like the lighted dog
vests. I don't like the 30 foot reel

leashes. No French Nazi collaborators making us wear vests.
I'll submit that the proper response is for you to slow way, way down
when driving at night. There should be no expectation that pedestrians,
especially in a residential neighborhood, should kowtow to the
convenience of motorists. If pedestrians are likely to be around, cars
should be below 20 mph, and probably much below.
About DRLs, I'd say less than half the commuters pre-pandemic were
using DRLs in real daylight. There were lots of them in drear or
dusk, including me. I see club riders and even racers using them
when I'm weekend riding -- again, probably 50% or less. I'll try
to keep an accurate count next time. I don't think they're helpful
in full sunlight, although a rear flasher is helpful in dappled
sun-through-trees, at least according to the one panicked motorist
who said he couldn't see me under the trees on Larch Mountain. He
was a nice guy, and he was right because I was losing other
cyclists in the hard shadows.

I'm convinced DRLs are a scam. As I've said before, there are a very few
times I've seen a bicyclist's DRL at a greater distance than I would
have seen the cyclist without the DRL. But there's _never_ been an
instance when that difference mattered. A cyclist riding properly on an
ordinary road is almost always visible enough, and the rare exception
(for example, the setting sun at equinox aligned with a west-facing
road) no DRL is bright enough to be effective.
I still don't take a flasher up there, however -- and one of the typical
dying Tinkerbell flashers wouldn't work in any event, and a lot of DRLs
do fall into that category. You ride up on someone and look down at the
fender or seat post and see this light once you get there. I do wonder
why people bother with those.
About your questions: First, nobody has yet bugged me in person about
not having a DRL, although both Scharf and Joerg have gone on about them
in this discussion group, portraying them as either absolutely necessary
or used by "all the riders with brains." But there have been ads pushing
DRLs for all riders, and I won't be surprised to see efforts to make
them mandatory, perhaps first on invitational rides. If those rules
catch on, there will be efforts to mandate them for other riding.

I'm sure you'll say Scharf and Joerg don't count. But please understand,
my main point is that paranoia tends to elevate the requirements for
"safe enough." You've just mentioned that (a bit?) less than half the
commuters are using DRLs. How long has that been true? Why was it not
true ten years ago? Think, Jay! It's because back then bicyclists felt
safe enough riding without a DRL. Now they don't. That's a very specific
example of the "inflation" trend I'm describing.

Is it also about helmets? Yes, those form another example. in 1970 no
recreational or transportational cyclists wore helmets; they were worn
only by a very few racers, and non-competitive cyclists felt safe enough
without them. But after a long-lived and massive promotion campaign,
"everybody knows" that you're not safe if you ride without a helmet. In
many states it's illegal for kids to ride without one, and Australian
fines for alternate hat choices approach $400. Do you not recognize that
this is an inflation in "safety" expectations? Do you seriously think
it's sensible? And if you do, would the next step - perhaps full-face
helmets - also be sensible?

And yes, I have been criticized for not wearing a helmet. I'm astonished
you have to ask, given the history of this group's discussions. I've
also been criticized quite harshly to my face, literally shouted at by
other cyclists in profanity-filled harangues. I've had motorists blare
horns at me yelling "Get off the road," and follow up with "Wear your
damned helmet."

But to repeat: This phenomena of "safety inflation" is NOT limited to
bicycling issues by any means. It's pervasive and it applies to probably
hundreds of activities.

My objection stems from what should be a bleedingly obvious fact: If we
pile on more and more and more restrictions or requirements or devices
or other measures in the name of "safety," we are bound to cross a line
where the measures do more harm than good. In many situations, we've
probably crossed that line. I believe bicycling is one victim.

And understand, I'm hardly alone in noting this. There have been serious
articles in major magazines discussing the silliness and the
consequences of the mindset. I have books on the topic. It's not
imaginary, and much of it is not reasonable.


--
- Frank Krygowski


Safety inflation?

Do any of your bicycles have other than steel rims? Do you use brakes
other than coaster brakes? If you do isn't that also falling into the
trap of Safety Inflation? After all, both were quite adequate for many
decades. LOL VBEG


How about these newfangled Safety bicycles? Penny farthing not good enough?
Ads
  #202  
Old April 10th 21, 02:04 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Roger Merriman[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 385
Default Safety inflation

Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/8/2021 12:16 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, April 8, 2021 at 8:24:12 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/8/2021 10:21 AM, sms wrote:

Ohio is obviously a very different place than Oregon or California.

Out on the left coast no one is scared of riding a bicycle if they lack
a fluorescent jersey.
But I'm betting the "safety" people are telling them they should be
wearing fluorescent clothing. And if things progress as they did with
helmets, states will begin considering, then passing Mandatory
Fluorescent Laws. Please note, that happened in France. Cyclists are
legally required to wear safety vests on rural roads at least under
certain conditions.
As to DRLs, it is true that the vast majority of transportational
cyclists do have DRLs on their bicycles, by default. It's not because
some mystery group told them to go out and buy one, the DRL came with
whatever bicycle light that they bought, whether at a bicycle shop or
online.
AFAIK, most of that paragraph is still false. But we know one of your
objectives is to make it true. Because one can never be too safe, right?


Were you beaten by a school crossing guard or something? What is the
genesis of this recent anti-safety jihad?


The genesis of my complaints is rationality. As you've just
demonstrated, if someone questions the value of any purported "safety"
measure, they are likely to be taunted as "anti-safety."

I ride most every day, and nobody bugs me about not having a DRL or
wearing a fluorescent jersey or really anything. I haven't seen a
bicycle safety message in years, although I'm not looking and don't go
to shops. Who are these "safety" people? Is this about helmets? Did
somebody criticize you for not wearing a helmet?

When I go skiing, the liftys are neurotic about masks -- and I was mask
shamed while out on a walk early in the pandemic, but that's about it
for safety scolding. My neighbor panics and scolds me when I climb my
22' extension ladder because I'm an old dude and in the demographic for falls.


And your response? By arguing with me, you seem to be defending your
local nannies.

Ah, I have fallen prey to the walking safety thing, but not because of
warnings or messages from regulators. My wife and I got reflective
vests for walking at night because the Ninja walkers scare the snot out
of us when we're driving at night -- and we have a ton of walkers in our
neighborhood. Their are nights when it feels like a street fair with
everyone standing in the street yaking or walking their dogs. I really
like the lighted dog vests. I don't like the 30 foot reel

leashes. No French Nazi collaborators making us wear vests.

I'll submit that the proper response is for you to slow way, way down
when driving at night. There should be no expectation that pedestrians,
especially in a residential neighborhood, should kowtow to the
convenience of motorists. If pedestrians are likely to be around, cars
should be below 20 mph, and probably much below.

About DRLs, I'd say less than half the commuters pre-pandemic were using
DRLs in real daylight. There were lots of them in drear or dusk,
including me. I see club riders and even racers using them when I'm
weekend riding -- again, probably 50% or less. I'll try to keep an
accurate count next time. I don't think they're helpful in full
sunlight, although a rear flasher is helpful in dappled
sun-through-trees, at least according to the one panicked motorist who
said he couldn't see me under the trees on Larch Mountain. He was a
nice guy, and he was right because I was losing other cyclists in the hard shadows.


I'm convinced DRLs are a scam. As I've said before, there are a very few
times I've seen a bicyclist's DRL at a greater distance than I would
have seen the cyclist without the DRL. But there's _never_ been an
instance when that difference mattered. A cyclist riding properly on an
ordinary road is almost always visible enough, and the rare exception
(for example, the setting sun at equinox aligned with a west-facing
road) no DRL is bright enough to be effective.


I still don't take a flasher up there, however -- and one of the typical
dying Tinkerbell flashers wouldn't work in any event, and a lot of DRLs
do fall into that category. You ride up on someone and look down at the
fender or seat post and see this light once you get there. I do wonder
why people bother with those.

About your questions: First, nobody has yet bugged me in person about
not having a DRL, although both Scharf and Joerg have gone on about them
in this discussion group, portraying them as either absolutely necessary
or used by "all the riders with brains." But there have been ads pushing
DRLs for all riders, and I won't be surprised to see efforts to make
them mandatory, perhaps first on invitational rides. If those rules
catch on, there will be efforts to mandate them for other riding.


I’ve not seen any attempt bar some club ask that you have lights of some
degree.

Personally I like them i suspect that in terms of risk it’s within
statistical noise. In my case the front light is a fairly powerful light,
with a remote so I can toggle High/low. Which gets folks attention very
sharply! Though that maybe happens once a year or so, ie something so silly
that it’s worth high beaming them same as in the car, it’s rare that I’d
need to use the horn.

What it seems to do, is stop folks just pulling out/doing U turns as the
light at glance says motorbike than bike, i suspect. As folks can’t predict
speed or much generally, do I think it stops accidents? No.

Does it make my commute less tedious yes I think so, it’s also since I need
the light at all times of the year and running on low is a week or more
before it starts nagging for a charge in summer maybe 3/4 days in winter.

In short i will have the light with me so I turn it on.

Snips

Roger Merriman

  #203  
Old April 10th 21, 03:34 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Safety inflation

On 4/10/2021 9:04 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:

About your questions: First, nobody has yet bugged me in person about
not having a DRL, although both Scharf and Joerg have gone on about them
in this discussion group, portraying them as either absolutely necessary
or used by "all the riders with brains." But there have been ads pushing
DRLs for all riders, and I won't be surprised to see efforts to make
them mandatory, perhaps first on invitational rides. If those rules
catch on, there will be efforts to mandate them for other riding.


I’ve not seen any attempt bar some club ask that you have lights of some
degree.


There is a cycling club not very far from me that mandates blinking
taillights for all its recreational rides.

In its earliest years, the company Vermont Bicycle Touring mandated six
foot tall flags on its bicycles. Those flags were promoted for all
cyclists. That's a somewhat unusual example of a "safety" fashion that
fell out of favor - although there are those who now tout horizontal
flags, pool noodles protruding sideways, etc.


Personally I like them i suspect that in terms of risk it’s within
statistical noise. In my case the front light is a fairly powerful light,
with a remote so I can toggle High/low. Which gets folks attention very
sharply! Though that maybe happens once a year or so, ie something so silly
that it’s worth high beaming them same as in the car, it’s rare that I’d
need to use the horn.

What it seems to do, is stop folks just pulling out/doing U turns as the
light at glance says motorbike than bike, i suspect. As folks can’t predict
speed or much generally, do I think it stops accidents? No.

Does it make my commute less tedious yes I think so ...

But beware of confirmation bias.

On yesterday's ride, we had a motorist pull out closely in front of us,
a very rare occurrence. A daytime headlight would certainly not have
helped. We were on the tandem, which is conspicuous, and our friend was
behind us. The driver looked at us as he ran the stop sign and yelled
something at us - probably "Get off the road," although I couldn't
really hear.

Absent properly collected data, I could claim that all the thousands of
times that _doesn't_ happen to me are because I _don't_ use a DRL.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #204  
Old April 10th 21, 04:06 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,477
Default Safety inflation

On 4/10/2021 6:04 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:

snip

I’ve not seen any attempt bar some club ask that you have lights of some
degree.

Personally I like them i suspect that in terms of risk it’s within
statistical noise. In my case the front light is a fairly powerful light,
with a remote so I can toggle High/low. Which gets folks attention very
sharply! Though that maybe happens once a year or so, ie something so silly
that it’s worth high beaming them same as in the car, it’s rare that I’d
need to use the horn.

What it seems to do, is stop folks just pulling out/doing U turns as the
light at glance says motorbike than bike, i suspect. As folks can’t predict
speed or much generally, do I think it stops accidents? No.

Does it make my commute less tedious yes I think so, it’s also since I need
the light at all times of the year and running on low is a week or more
before it starts nagging for a charge in summer maybe 3/4 days in winter.

In short i will have the light with me so I turn it on.


You can be just as safe without a DRL as with a DRL. What the DRL does
is to greatly reduce the instances of vehicles doing things like pulling
out of a parking lot in front of you, doing right hooks in front of you,
and making U turns into your path. You can certainly ride much slower
and more cautiously and do just fine without a DRL. You're just much
more visible to vehicles, and from further away, when you have a DRL.
And as you stated, you have the light with you so you turn it on,
there's no down side at all.

And no, no bicycle club that I'm aware of would require a DRL on a ride,
though most do require helmets on club rides, partly at insistence of
their insurance carrier and partly because it's just a good idea. I
suppose that a ride leader could require it though but I've never heard
of this occurring, it's just another thing Frank is throwing out in his
effort to gain traction with his narrative. I would suggest that he move
on to chain lubrication arguments.
  #205  
Old April 10th 21, 07:34 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,270
Default Safety inflation

On Saturday, April 10, 2021 at 11:06:15 a.m. UTC-4, sms wrote:
On 4/10/2021 6:04 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:

snip
I’ve not seen any attempt bar some club ask that you have lights of some
degree.

Personally I like them i suspect that in terms of risk it’s within
statistical noise. In my case the front light is a fairly powerful light,
with a remote so I can toggle High/low. Which gets folks attention very
sharply! Though that maybe happens once a year or so, ie something so silly
that it’s worth high beaming them same as in the car, it’s rare that I’d
need to use the horn.

What it seems to do, is stop folks just pulling out/doing U turns as the
light at glance says motorbike than bike, i suspect. As folks can’t predict
speed or much generally, do I think it stops accidents? No.

Does it make my commute less tedious yes I think so, it’s also since I need
the light at all times of the year and running on low is a week or more
before it starts nagging for a charge in summer maybe 3/4 days in winter.

In short i will have the light with me so I turn it on.

You can be just as safe without a DRL as with a DRL. What the DRL does
is to greatly reduce the instances of vehicles doing things like pulling
out of a parking lot in front of you, doing right hooks in front of you,
and making U turns into your path. You can certainly ride much slower
and more cautiously and do just fine without a DRL. You're just much
more visible to vehicles, and from further away, when you have a DRL.
And as you stated, you have the light with you so you turn it on,
there's no down side at all.

And no, no bicycle club that I'm aware of would require a DRL on a ride,
though most do require helmets on club rides, partly at insistence of
their insurance carrier and partly because it's just a good idea. I
suppose that a ride leader could require it though but I've never heard
of this occurring, it's just another thing Frank is throwing out in his
effort to gain traction with his narrative. I would suggest that he move
on to chain lubrication arguments.


I have yet to see a DRL that's visible to me BEFORE the bicycle and bicyclist are. The only time I notice a bicyclist with a headlight or tail-light on during the day is if they are in deep shade or if it's heavy overcast.

The VAST MAJORITY of bicyclists do NOT repeat, do NOT, need a DRL.

Cheers
  #206  
Old April 10th 21, 09:01 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Safety inflation

On 4/10/2021 2:34 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:


I have yet to see a DRL that's visible to me BEFORE the bicycle and bicyclist are. The only time I notice a bicyclist with a headlight or tail-light on during the day is if they are in deep shade or if it's heavy overcast.

The VAST MAJORITY of bicyclists do NOT repeat, do NOT, need a DRL.


Agreed! Also, if cyclists ride more prominently in the lane, they're
even less likely to not be noticed by motorists.

The problem is, when people who buy a DRL get noticed, they say "Oh, he
noticed me because of my DRL" even if they would have been noticed
anyway. Confirmation bias in action.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #207  
Old April 10th 21, 10:37 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,270
Default Safety inflation

On Saturday, April 10, 2021 at 4:01:09 p.m. UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/10/2021 2:34 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:


I have yet to see a DRL that's visible to me BEFORE the bicycle and bicyclist are. The only time I notice a bicyclist with a headlight or tail-light on during the day is if they are in deep shade or if it's heavy overcast.

The VAST MAJORITY of bicyclists do NOT repeat, do NOT, need a DRL.

Agreed! Also, if cyclists ride more prominently in the lane, they're
even less likely to not be noticed by motorists.

The problem is, when people who buy a DRL get noticed, they say "Oh, he
noticed me because of my DRL" even if they would have been noticed
anyway. Confirmation bias in action.


--
- Frank Krygowski


With all this safety gear some people recommend, the cost to start bicycling must be VERY off putting.

Cheers
  #208  
Old April 10th 21, 11:46 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,697
Default Safety inflation

On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 16:01:04 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 4/10/2021 2:34 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:


I have yet to see a DRL that's visible to me BEFORE the bicycle and bicyclist are. The only time I notice a bicyclist with a headlight or tail-light on during the day is if they are in deep shade or if it's heavy overcast.

The VAST MAJORITY of bicyclists do NOT repeat, do NOT, need a DRL.


Agreed! Also, if cyclists ride more prominently in the lane, they're
even less likely to not be noticed by motorists.

The problem is, when people who buy a DRL get noticed, they say "Oh, he
noticed me because of my DRL" even if they would have been noticed
anyway. Confirmation bias in action.


But I have seen situations where a DRL was noticeable. The other day
we were driving back from Bangkok and because of the holiday traffic
started very early in the morning - sun just peeping over the horizon
- and met a bloke on a bicycle and yes the DRL did make him much more
noticeable.
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #209  
Old April 11th 21, 12:23 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Safety inflation

On 4/10/2021 6:46 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 16:01:04 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 4/10/2021 2:34 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:


I have yet to see a DRL that's visible to me BEFORE the bicycle and bicyclist are. The only time I notice a bicyclist with a headlight or tail-light on during the day is if they are in deep shade or if it's heavy overcast.

The VAST MAJORITY of bicyclists do NOT repeat, do NOT, need a DRL.


Agreed! Also, if cyclists ride more prominently in the lane, they're
even less likely to not be noticed by motorists.

The problem is, when people who buy a DRL get noticed, they say "Oh, he
noticed me because of my DRL" even if they would have been noticed
anyway. Confirmation bias in action.


But I have seen situations where a DRL was noticeable. The other day
we were driving back from Bangkok and because of the holiday traffic
started very early in the morning - sun just peeping over the horizon
- and met a bloke on a bicycle and yes the DRL did make him much more
noticeable.


As I've said, you can sometimes spot a bicyclist farther away because of
a DRL. But I've never observed an incident when the DRL made a
_practical_ difference. A cyclist doesn't need to be seen at the horizon.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #210  
Old April 11th 21, 03:12 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,697
Default Safety inflation

On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 19:23:20 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 4/10/2021 6:46 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 16:01:04 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 4/10/2021 2:34 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:


I have yet to see a DRL that's visible to me BEFORE the bicycle and bicyclist are. The only time I notice a bicyclist with a headlight or tail-light on during the day is if they are in deep shade or if it's heavy overcast.

The VAST MAJORITY of bicyclists do NOT repeat, do NOT, need a DRL.

Agreed! Also, if cyclists ride more prominently in the lane, they're
even less likely to not be noticed by motorists.

The problem is, when people who buy a DRL get noticed, they say "Oh, he
noticed me because of my DRL" even if they would have been noticed
anyway. Confirmation bias in action.


But I have seen situations where a DRL was noticeable. The other day
we were driving back from Bangkok and because of the holiday traffic
started very early in the morning - sun just peeping over the horizon
- and met a bloke on a bicycle and yes the DRL did make him much more
noticeable.


As I've said, you can sometimes spot a bicyclist farther away because of
a DRL. But I've never observed an incident when the DRL made a
_practical_ difference. A cyclist doesn't need to be seen at the horizon.


I have. Twice. Each time it was cyclist riding the wrong way on the
side of the street. Both times were very early in the morning and if
he had some sort of light I would have seen him further enough away to
have easily avoided him rather then an "OH MY GOD" situation.
--
Cheers,

John B.

 




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