tubeless or tubes

On Tue, 6 Apr 2021 08:28:18 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 4/5/2021 8:33 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 05 Apr 2021 20:19:29 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

I can post photos if anyone wants to see the problem.

This is almost the exact same hand truck (dolly) that I have:
"How to change flat tire on a moving dolly / Dolly repair/ Dolly Fix"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSDCVgkF3JU (1:36)
However, the tire is a different tread pattern and design. It also
seems far more flexible than mine.

Also, I forgot to mention another advantage of tubeless tires. If you
can't get the bead to set after changing the tire, just fill it with
any kind of explosive gas (butane, propane, natural gas, etc) and
ignite it. The expanding gases will seat the tire on the rim quite
nicely. That doesn't work with an inner tube.

Yes, every rider that uses tubeless tires should carry a butane
cartridge and a lighter in their tool bag. The butane cartridges are not
as small as CO2 cartridges though.

When not in use, the butane cartridge can either operate or refill a
butane bicycle headlight. I couldn't find one specifically designed
for a bicycle, but there are plenty of camping lanterns that will
suffice if you add a reflector. Don't forget to bring a Ferro Rod and
striker for ignition.
https://www.google.com/search?q=ferro+rod&tbm=isch

These are the smallest I could find
https://www.bnbtobacco.com/products/bugatti-butane-refill-pods.

Ummm... It's difficult to determine the physical size from the photos.
100 ml capacity would be rather large. Since the commercial isobutane
is a liquid, it could easily be stored in a syringe for single use
applications:
"What Is Butane Fuel?"
https://sciencing.com/butane-fuel-6496032.html
"Commercially sold butane fuel in the United States is primarily
propane (85 percent), but it has up to 2.5 percent butane."

I think that someone should contact the company with your advice because
it could greatly expand the market for their product. They could relabel
the cartridges and sell them through bicycle shops at a much higher
price. That's what lubricant manufacturers do.

I was thinking more in the line of WD-40, which has 2,000 uses, of
which only one works (displacing water). I should be able to contrive
a similar list of uses for butane on a bicycle, some of which might be
considered safe. Just one problem. Butane has already been
trademarked for bicycle use:
https://biketubebrand.com/road-tubes/butane-black-performance-tube

Tired of sitting by the side of the road pumping air into your tires,
or freezing your hands with a CO2 inflator? What you need is
"Bang-in-Flate" bead seater and tire inflator. One squirt, shake,
ignite, bang, and you're ready to ride again. Guaranteed safe or your
designated beneficiaries get your money back.

Soon, everyone will be refilling their bicycle tires with butane.

--
Jeff Liebermann
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 4/6/2021 10:47 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Monday, April 5, 2021 at 6:06:22 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/5/2021 7:49 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 5 Apr 2021 17:29:26 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 4/5/2021 2:47 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

I tried to check online for recent sales history for bicycle inner
tubes. If there was a precipitous drop in inner tube sales, that
would indicate that tubeless was taking over. However, with the
pandemic and subsequent shortages, the few numbers I could find are
probably distorted. You might check with your LBS and ask about
relative bicycle sales with inner tube vs tubeless. That might give
you a clue on trends and whether you're a minority member.

The two things that draw some cyclists to tubeless are the expense and
the inconvenience.

You must be a member of the CCC (Cynical Cycling Club).

Marginally related tube drivel:

1. I have an Ace Hardware garbage can hand truck with tubeless tires.
They leak because the rims were painted. Leaving it outdoors for a
while caused water to collect between the painted rim and the tire,
which promptly rusted. The rust was uneven, so the tires leaked air.
So, I bought two inner tubes for the tires. I won't go through the
details, but removing the tires so that they straddle one edge of the
rim, was almost impossible. I managed to get one tire off, and insert
the inner tube. However, I can't get the tire back onto the rim.
Tubeless hand truck tires are evil.

2. Last years CZU fire and subsequent wind storm(s) gave a big boost
to the home repair business. One of the side effects is the various
amateur and professional contractors tend to leave nails all over the
road. This year, I picked up a nail in the tread, which I
successfully plugged on my 3rd try. I expect to find more nails in my
tires until after the construction is done. Yes, we sweep the road
with a magnetic pickup tool, but the nails are good at hiding. Looking
at the damage, I'm fairly sure that I would not have had a problem if
my tire had an inner tube.

3. I'm on my last Nashbar leaky bicycle inner tube. I started with 6
cheap tubes, all of which have leaked to varying degrees. I'll soon
need to make a decision as to whether to buy some more cheap tubes,
some expensive better tubes, Slime Sealant, or go tubeless with
sealant. Since I'm cheap, it will probably more cheap leaky tubes.



On that style tire, wet the bead set with soapy water or
spray wax, cinch your belt or similar around the tire and
inflate quickly. It will snap onto the seats.

Uh, Andrew? You have a belt long enough to go around a 700c? Exactly how much do you weigh? Or are you speaking of John?

I'm sorry Tom, you've lost track of the conversation yet again.


--
- Frank Krygowski

Ralph Barone wrote:

Currently rims have between 20 - 36 holes to feed the spike heads through,
requiring the use of a rim liner. Cars avoided that by moving to pressed
steel and cast aluminum wheels, neither of which I see taking over. Also,
many wheels are pinned together instead of welded at the seam, which is
another potential air leakage site.

Absolutely true. New rim designs are required. The bead seat needs to be
different. New extrusions dies, more careful welding and finishing of the
butt joint. A double-wall rim solves the spoke sealing problem. Nipples
are fed into the spoke chamber via the valve stem hole, fished into place
with a magnet and started on the spokes. Here's a video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXeZfRD-fQ4
I admit it looks kinda fiddly, but how often do rims get re-laced?

Alternatively one could use the arrangement on BMW dualsports, with the
spoke holes in the edge of the rim and the nipples, which must be larger,
in the hub. It isn't mandatory to use the extreme crossing angles BMW
employs, so the truing needn't be so difficult as it is on motorcycles.

My point is that a redesign is mandatory anyway, why not do it right?

Thanks for reading,

bob prohaska

On 4/6/2021 12:34 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Yes, every rider that uses tubeless tires should carry a butane
cartridge and a lighter in their tool bag. The butane cartridges are not
as small as CO2 cartridges though.

When not in use, the butane cartridge can either operate or refill a
butane bicycle headlight. I couldn't find one specifically designed
for a bicycle, but there are plenty of camping lanterns that will
suffice if you add a reflector. Don't forget to bring a Ferro Rod and
striker for ignition.
https://www.google.com/search?q=ferro+rod&tbm=isch

I'd prefer a fire piston. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_piston
ISTM it would be a trivial modification of a frame pump or mini pump.

Hmm. But then there would be no need for the butane. Yes, marketing can
be complicated!

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 4/6/2021 9:47 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Monday, April 5, 2021 at 6:06:22 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/5/2021 7:49 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 5 Apr 2021 17:29:26 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 4/5/2021 2:47 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

I tried to check online for recent sales history for bicycle inner
tubes. If there was a precipitous drop in inner tube sales, that
would indicate that tubeless was taking over. However, with the
pandemic and subsequent shortages, the few numbers I could find are
probably distorted. You might check with your LBS and ask about
relative bicycle sales with inner tube vs tubeless. That might give
you a clue on trends and whether you're a minority member.

The two things that draw some cyclists to tubeless are the expense and
the inconvenience.

You must be a member of the CCC (Cynical Cycling Club).

Marginally related tube drivel:

1. I have an Ace Hardware garbage can hand truck with tubeless tires.
They leak because the rims were painted. Leaving it outdoors for a
while caused water to collect between the painted rim and the tire,
which promptly rusted. The rust was uneven, so the tires leaked air.
So, I bought two inner tubes for the tires. I won't go through the
details, but removing the tires so that they straddle one edge of the
rim, was almost impossible. I managed to get one tire off, and insert
the inner tube. However, I can't get the tire back onto the rim.
Tubeless hand truck tires are evil.

2. Last years CZU fire and subsequent wind storm(s) gave a big boost
to the home repair business. One of the side effects is the various
amateur and professional contractors tend to leave nails all over the
road. This year, I picked up a nail in the tread, which I
successfully plugged on my 3rd try. I expect to find more nails in my
tires until after the construction is done. Yes, we sweep the road
with a magnetic pickup tool, but the nails are good at hiding. Looking
at the damage, I'm fairly sure that I would not have had a problem if
my tire had an inner tube.

3. I'm on my last Nashbar leaky bicycle inner tube. I started with 6
cheap tubes, all of which have leaked to varying degrees. I'll soon
need to make a decision as to whether to buy some more cheap tubes,
some expensive better tubes, Slime Sealant, or go tubeless with
sealant. Since I'm cheap, it will probably more cheap leaky tubes.



On that style tire, wet the bead set with soapy water or
spray wax, cinch your belt or similar around the tire and
inflate quickly. It will snap onto the seats.

Uh, Andrew? You have a belt long enough to go around a 700c? Exactly how much do you weigh? Or are you speaking of John?


My waist is 28 inches. The series of tire we are discussing
is 8-10-12xfat. Similar to electric wheelchair tires with
which I am well experienced.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tuesday, April 6, 2021 at 9:41:12 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/6/2021 10:47 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Monday, April 5, 2021 at 6:06:22 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/5/2021 7:49 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 5 Apr 2021 17:29:26 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 4/5/2021 2:47 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

I tried to check online for recent sales history for bicycle inner
tubes. If there was a precipitous drop in inner tube sales, that
would indicate that tubeless was taking over. However, with the
pandemic and subsequent shortages, the few numbers I could find are
probably distorted. You might check with your LBS and ask about
relative bicycle sales with inner tube vs tubeless. That might give
you a clue on trends and whether you're a minority member.

The two things that draw some cyclists to tubeless are the expense and
the inconvenience.

You must be a member of the CCC (Cynical Cycling Club).

Marginally related tube drivel:

1. I have an Ace Hardware garbage can hand truck with tubeless tires.
They leak because the rims were painted. Leaving it outdoors for a
while caused water to collect between the painted rim and the tire,
which promptly rusted. The rust was uneven, so the tires leaked air.
So, I bought two inner tubes for the tires. I won't go through the
details, but removing the tires so that they straddle one edge of the
rim, was almost impossible. I managed to get one tire off, and insert
the inner tube. However, I can't get the tire back onto the rim.
Tubeless hand truck tires are evil.

2. Last years CZU fire and subsequent wind storm(s) gave a big boost
to the home repair business. One of the side effects is the various
amateur and professional contractors tend to leave nails all over the
road. This year, I picked up a nail in the tread, which I
successfully plugged on my 3rd try. I expect to find more nails in my
tires until after the construction is done. Yes, we sweep the road
with a magnetic pickup tool, but the nails are good at hiding. Looking
at the damage, I'm fairly sure that I would not have had a problem if
my tire had an inner tube.

3. I'm on my last Nashbar leaky bicycle inner tube. I started with 6
cheap tubes, all of which have leaked to varying degrees. I'll soon
need to make a decision as to whether to buy some more cheap tubes,
some expensive better tubes, Slime Sealant, or go tubeless with
sealant. Since I'm cheap, it will probably more cheap leaky tubes.



On that style tire, wet the bead set with soapy water or
spray wax, cinch your belt or similar around the tire and
inflate quickly. It will snap onto the seats.

Uh, Andrew? You have a belt long enough to go around a 700c? Exactly how much do you weigh? Or are you speaking of John?
I'm sorry Tom, you've lost track of the conversation yet again.

Since you can't keep track of the conversation Frank perhaps I should quote Andrew so you can find the conversation again. "On that style tire, wet the bead set with soapy water or spray wax, cinch your belt or similar around the tire and inflate quickly. It will snap onto the seats."

I realize that the Alzheimer's is catching up with you rapidly, but do you really have to make it so public?

On Tuesday, April 6, 2021 at 10:01:59 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/6/2021 9:47 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Monday, April 5, 2021 at 6:06:22 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/5/2021 7:49 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 5 Apr 2021 17:29:26 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 4/5/2021 2:47 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

I tried to check online for recent sales history for bicycle inner
tubes. If there was a precipitous drop in inner tube sales, that
would indicate that tubeless was taking over. However, with the
pandemic and subsequent shortages, the few numbers I could find are
probably distorted. You might check with your LBS and ask about
relative bicycle sales with inner tube vs tubeless. That might give
you a clue on trends and whether you're a minority member.

The two things that draw some cyclists to tubeless are the expense and
the inconvenience.

You must be a member of the CCC (Cynical Cycling Club).

Marginally related tube drivel:

1. I have an Ace Hardware garbage can hand truck with tubeless tires.
They leak because the rims were painted. Leaving it outdoors for a
while caused water to collect between the painted rim and the tire,
which promptly rusted. The rust was uneven, so the tires leaked air.
So, I bought two inner tubes for the tires. I won't go through the
details, but removing the tires so that they straddle one edge of the
rim, was almost impossible. I managed to get one tire off, and insert
the inner tube. However, I can't get the tire back onto the rim.
Tubeless hand truck tires are evil.

2. Last years CZU fire and subsequent wind storm(s) gave a big boost
to the home repair business. One of the side effects is the various
amateur and professional contractors tend to leave nails all over the
road. This year, I picked up a nail in the tread, which I
successfully plugged on my 3rd try. I expect to find more nails in my
tires until after the construction is done. Yes, we sweep the road
with a magnetic pickup tool, but the nails are good at hiding. Looking
at the damage, I'm fairly sure that I would not have had a problem if
my tire had an inner tube.

3. I'm on my last Nashbar leaky bicycle inner tube. I started with 6
cheap tubes, all of which have leaked to varying degrees. I'll soon
need to make a decision as to whether to buy some more cheap tubes,
some expensive better tubes, Slime Sealant, or go tubeless with
sealant. Since I'm cheap, it will probably more cheap leaky tubes.



On that style tire, wet the bead set with soapy water or
spray wax, cinch your belt or similar around the tire and
inflate quickly. It will snap onto the seats.

Uh, Andrew? You have a belt long enough to go around a 700c? Exactly how much do you weigh? Or are you speaking of John?

My waist is 28 inches. The series of tire we are discussing
is 8-10-12xfat. Similar to electric wheelchair tires with
which I am well experienced.

Wow, that is thin. I don't carry a lot of weight but my waist is 35". Pi x 29" (700c) is a 91" radius.

Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/4/2021 8:59 PM, Mark cleary wrote:
I wonder what most regular cyclist are riding these days. I see so much
on tubeless sets up and I have never given it a thought. I don't flat
much so I just do not see the benefit at all and really so much easier
just putting a tube in. I am I in the minority these days?

I'm not aware of any of my riding friends using tubeless.

The bike industry, including bike magazines, always have to hype
_something_ new. Don't confuse hype with actual benefits or actual
practice.

One or two of mine are generally folks whose bikes have come set up new
like it.

I personally haven’t bothered, put off by the hassle and cost.

Plus well tubes work for me.

Roger Merriman

On 4/6/2021 1:08 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/4/2021 8:59 PM, Mark cleary wrote:
I wonder what most regular cyclist are riding these days. I see so much
on tubeless sets up and I have never given it a thought. I don't flat
much so I just do not see the benefit at all and really so much easier
just putting a tube in. I am I in the minority these days?

I'm not aware of any of my riding friends using tubeless.

The bike industry, including bike magazines, always have to hype
_something_ new. Don't confuse hype with actual benefits or actual
practice.

One or two of mine are generally folks whose bikes have come set up new
like it.

I personally haven’t bothered, put off by the hassle and cost.

Plus well tubes work for me.

Roger Merriman

I don't think many people go out and convert a bicycle with wheels that
don't support tubeless into tubeless by buying new wheels. I do see some
new bicycles with wheels that support tubeless but that don't ship with
tubeless.

You'd think that the inconvenience and the expense would put most people
off of tubeless, but you never know. Just like I question the
inconvenience, weight, and expense of CO2 cartridges versus a mini-pump.
You can buy a mini-pump that weighs as little as 25 grams, much less
than a Co2 cartridge and an inflator, but some people love the speed of
a CO2 cartridge (until they run out of CO2 and have to borrow someone's
pump).

On Tue, 6 Apr 2021 07:47:12 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Monday, April 5, 2021 at 6:06:22 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/5/2021 7:49 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 5 Apr 2021 17:29:26 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 4/5/2021 2:47 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

I tried to check online for recent sales history for bicycle inner
tubes. If there was a precipitous drop in inner tube sales, that
would indicate that tubeless was taking over. However, with the
pandemic and subsequent shortages, the few numbers I could find are
probably distorted. You might check with your LBS and ask about
relative bicycle sales with inner tube vs tubeless. That might give
you a clue on trends and whether you're a minority member.

The two things that draw some cyclists to tubeless are the expense and
the inconvenience.

You must be a member of the CCC (Cynical Cycling Club).

Marginally related tube drivel:

1. I have an Ace Hardware garbage can hand truck with tubeless tires.
They leak because the rims were painted. Leaving it outdoors for a
while caused water to collect between the painted rim and the tire,
which promptly rusted. The rust was uneven, so the tires leaked air.
So, I bought two inner tubes for the tires. I won't go through the
details, but removing the tires so that they straddle one edge of the
rim, was almost impossible. I managed to get one tire off, and insert
the inner tube. However, I can't get the tire back onto the rim.
Tubeless hand truck tires are evil.

2. Last years CZU fire and subsequent wind storm(s) gave a big boost
to the home repair business. One of the side effects is the various
amateur and professional contractors tend to leave nails all over the
road. This year, I picked up a nail in the tread, which I
successfully plugged on my 3rd try. I expect to find more nails in my
tires until after the construction is done. Yes, we sweep the road
with a magnetic pickup tool, but the nails are good at hiding. Looking
at the damage, I'm fairly sure that I would not have had a problem if
my tire had an inner tube.

3. I'm on my last Nashbar leaky bicycle inner tube. I started with 6
cheap tubes, all of which have leaked to varying degrees. I'll soon
need to make a decision as to whether to buy some more cheap tubes,
some expensive better tubes, Slime Sealant, or go tubeless with
sealant. Since I'm cheap, it will probably more cheap leaky tubes.



On that style tire, wet the bead set with soapy water or
spray wax, cinch your belt or similar around the tire and
inflate quickly. It will snap onto the seats.

Uh, Andrew? You have a belt long enough to go around a 700c? Exactly how much do you weigh? Or are you speaking of John?

Yup, I'm getting fat. This morning I weighed 63 kg. I'll have to go on
a diet.
--
Cheers,

John B.