Power Meters?

On 4/30/2021 6:00 PM, Mark J. wrote:
On 4/30/2021 2:27 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op vrijdag 30 april 2021 om 18:41:31 UTC+2 schreef Frank
Krygowski:
On 4/30/2021 11:19 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
I wouldn't complain if it was $25. But we're talking
$500 and up. And that is a lot of money for almost no
return.
That logic applies as well to almost every "you gotta
have it!" bit of
bike technology since index shifting. The industry is
chasing after ever
diminishing improvements and touting them as necessary.

Like any other commercial industry.


Since index, the only real game changer for anyone except
racers has
been e-bikes. And that's because they're a step away from
being a bicycle.

Also for non racers there are many improvements and E
bikes is certainly a game changer. It's a 'plaque' around
here. Now also 'old' people can go fast or less fast
without getting tired or sweating. Teenager already go to
school on a E bike.

Lou

Agree, but please tell me what 'plaque' means in this context?

Mark J.

it's a 'plague' both there and here.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 4/30/2021 2:33 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, April 29, 2021 at 2:47:46 PM UTC-7, wrote:
Op donderdag 29 april 2021 om 23:35:31 UTC+2 schreef jbeattie:
On Thursday, April 29, 2021 at 8:40:22 AM UTC-7, Mark cleary wrote:
What do you think of this power meter. I don't want pedal one until
they come out with Shimano cleat model and I don't want a hub based.
What if any does the group use?4IIII PRECISION PRO SHIMANO ULTEGRA
R8000 DUAL-SIDED CRANKSET
Deacon Mark
Buy a Stages. Its the best. https://store.stagescycling.com/ You can
get a single-sided arm pretty cheap and decide whether it is worth the
investment, and if it's not, then sell it. I'm personally not
interested in power data, but a lot of my friends love to ponder their
data. I'm also way behind the technology -- having just purchased my
first GPS cyclo-computer, a Stages Dash which I really like.

Full disclosu Stages has operations here in Portland, and they used
to employ my son, so I'm very partial. I still think they have the best low-cost option.

-- Jay Beattie.
If you already have the Dash why not buy the left crank when you can get it cheap?

Lou

My son asked me the same question, and I kind of relented -- agreeing to
buy his Ultegra crank arm cheap if he upgrades to a Dura Ace double
sided -- which he may do when he builds a new road racing bike (he
sold-off his old Tarmac as part of a down-sizing and spends more time
mountain biking now). Like I said, knowing my power is not a big deal for me.

-- Jay Beattie.


As a fat, old, out of shape cheapskate cyclist who likes tech gadgets, the
Velocomp PowerPod
https://velocomp.com
sounds like the sweet spot for me.

The iQ2 “power meter in a crank extender� looked hopeful at first, but they
completely changed their design to a power meter in a pedal and now seem to
be stuck in a loop of producing vague, positive press releases while the
backers continue to complain on their Facebook page about the complete
absence of product being shipped.
https://www.iqsquare.com



Help out an old luddite , pal.

I looked at the Velocmp page. Does it impute net power from
speed, slope, wind and air density? Did I miss something? I
didn't see a pedal/crank/spindle gizmo.

I suppose for normal bicycles there aren't significant
losses from bearings, tires, brake shoe drag (bent rim),
worn drivetrain and so on but at the extremes those could be
real losses (as noticed riding past riders with
half-inflated tires n a regular basis).


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Fri, 30 Apr 2021 19:21:36 -0500, AMuzi wrote:
Snipped

I looked at the Velocmp page. Does it impute net power from
speed, slope, wind and air density? Did I miss something? I
didn't see a pedal/crank/spindle gizmo.

Yes, if you delve deep enough you will find a test write up by Michael
Hanslip which says, in part:

"The power measurement is inferred. There are times when it may not be
as accurate as directly measured power would be. I noticed near-zero
wattage readouts, for example, during an extremely windy ride when I
know I was pushing hard on the pedals"


I suppose for normal bicycles there aren't significant
losses from bearings, tires, brake shoe drag (bent rim),
worn drivetrain and so on but at the extremes those could be
real losses (as noticed riding past riders with
half-inflated tires n a regular basis).
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Friday, April 30, 2021 at 5:21:50 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/30/2021 2:33 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, April 29, 2021 at 2:47:46 PM UTC-7, wrote:
Op donderdag 29 april 2021 om 23:35:31 UTC+2 schreef jbeattie:
On Thursday, April 29, 2021 at 8:40:22 AM UTC-7, Mark cleary wrote:
What do you think of this power meter. I don't want pedal one until
they come out with Shimano cleat model and I don't want a hub based..
What if any does the group use?4IIII PRECISION PRO SHIMANO ULTEGRA
R8000 DUAL-SIDED CRANKSET
Deacon Mark
Buy a Stages. Its the best. https://store.stagescycling.com/ You can
get a single-sided arm pretty cheap and decide whether it is worth the
investment, and if it's not, then sell it. I'm personally not
interested in power data, but a lot of my friends love to ponder their
data. I'm also way behind the technology -- having just purchased my
first GPS cyclo-computer, a Stages Dash which I really like.

Full disclosu Stages has operations here in Portland, and they used
to employ my son, so I'm very partial. I still think they have the best low-cost option.

-- Jay Beattie.
If you already have the Dash why not buy the left crank when you can get it cheap?

Lou

My son asked me the same question, and I kind of relented -- agreeing to
buy his Ultegra crank arm cheap if he upgrades to a Dura Ace double
sided -- which he may do when he builds a new road racing bike (he
sold-off his old Tarmac as part of a down-sizing and spends more time
mountain biking now). Like I said, knowing my power is not a big deal for me.

-- Jay Beattie.


As a fat, old, out of shape cheapskate cyclist who likes tech gadgets, the
Velocomp PowerPod
https://velocomp.com
sounds like the sweet spot for me.

The iQ2 “power meter in a crank extender†looked hopeful at first, but they
completely changed their design to a power meter in a pedal and now seem to
be stuck in a loop of producing vague, positive press releases while the
backers continue to complain on their Facebook page about the complete
absence of product being shipped.
https://www.iqsquare.com


Help out an old luddite , pal.

I looked at the Velocmp page. Does it impute net power from
speed, slope, wind and air density? Did I miss something? I
didn't see a pedal/crank/spindle gizmo.

I suppose for normal bicycles there aren't significant
losses from bearings, tires, brake shoe drag (bent rim),
worn drivetrain and so on but at the extremes those could be
real losses (as noticed riding past riders with
half-inflated tires n a regular basis).
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
I think that it insinuates power by rate of change of altitude and air speed. Like I said, the numbers seemed overinflated to me and I was a lot faster then

AMuzi wrote:
On 4/30/2021 2:33 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, April 29, 2021 at 2:47:46 PM UTC-7, wrote:
Op donderdag 29 april 2021 om 23:35:31 UTC+2 schreef jbeattie:
On Thursday, April 29, 2021 at 8:40:22 AM UTC-7, Mark cleary wrote:
What do you think of this power meter. I don't want pedal one until
they come out with Shimano cleat model and I don't want a hub based.
What if any does the group use?4IIII PRECISION PRO SHIMANO ULTEGRA
R8000 DUAL-SIDED CRANKSET
Deacon Mark
Buy a Stages. Its the best. https://store.stagescycling.com/ You can
get a single-sided arm pretty cheap and decide whether it is worth the
investment, and if it's not, then sell it. I'm personally not
interested in power data, but a lot of my friends love to ponder their
data. I'm also way behind the technology -- having just purchased my
first GPS cyclo-computer, a Stages Dash which I really like.

Full disclosu Stages has operations here in Portland, and they used
to employ my son, so I'm very partial. I still think they have the
best low-cost option.

-- Jay Beattie.
If you already have the Dash why not buy the left crank when you can get it cheap?

Lou

My son asked me the same question, and I kind of relented -- agreeing to
buy his Ultegra crank arm cheap if he upgrades to a Dura Ace double
sided -- which he may do when he builds a new road racing bike (he
sold-off his old Tarmac as part of a down-sizing and spends more time
mountain biking now). Like I said, knowing my power is not a big deal for me.

-- Jay Beattie.


As a fat, old, out of shape cheapskate cyclist who likes tech gadgets, the
Velocomp PowerPod
https://velocomp.com
sounds like the sweet spot for me.

The iQ2 “power meter in a crank extender� looked hopeful at first, but they
completely changed their design to a power meter in a pedal and now seem to
be stuck in a loop of producing vague, positive press releases while the
backers continue to complain on their Facebook page about the complete
absence of product being shipped.
https://www.iqsquare.com



Help out an old luddite , pal.

I looked at the Velocmp page. Does it impute net power from
speed, slope, wind and air density? Did I miss something? I
didn't see a pedal/crank/spindle gizmo.

I suppose for normal bicycles there aren't significant
losses from bearings, tires, brake shoe drag (bent rim),
worn drivetrain and so on but at the extremes those could be
real losses (as noticed riding past riders with
half-inflated tires n a regular basis).



It reads data from the speed/cadence sensor that’s already talking to your
GPS, so it knows road speed and when you’re pedaling. It then uses a three
axis accelerometer to determine acceleration as well as road slope. It
measures air speed from a differential pressure transducer. It then does a
boatload of math to solve for the unknowns (CdA, Crr, etc) and derive
power. The real magic appears to be that it is constantly recalculating
these parameters, so it won’t immediately figure out that you’ve changed
your position on the bike, but it will slowly notice the model isn’t as
accurate and adjust CdA accordingly. So on a long ride, it should do quite
well as long as you aren’t constantly changing position.

On 4/30/2021 4:43 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, April 30, 2021 at 9:41:31 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/30/2021 11:19 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
I wouldn't complain if it was $25. But we're talking $500 and up. And that is a lot of money for almost no return.
That logic applies as well to almost every "you gotta have it!" bit of
bike technology since index shifting. The industry is chasing after ever
diminishing improvements and touting them as necessary.

Since index, the only real game changer for anyone except racers has
been e-bikes. And that's because they're a step away from being a bicycle.

You could put a power meter on a beater to monitor your recovery from a heart attack. Power-meter (and heart monitor) are purchased by elite athletes and old ladies. People have a lot of reasons for wanting power data -- including plain old curiosity. It's not just the latest and greatest mentality.

People may have lots of reasons they think they want a power meter, but
my point is it's not going to make a significant difference to anyone
but a racer.

You don't really need one to get in shape; and if it does help you get
in slightly-even-better shape, so what? If you're not racing, it just
doesn't matter.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/30/2021 4:43 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, April 30, 2021 at 9:41:31 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/30/2021 11:19 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
I wouldn't complain if it was $25. But we're talking $500 and up. And
that is a lot of money for almost no return.
That logic applies as well to almost every "you gotta have it!" bit of
bike technology since index shifting. The industry is chasing after ever
diminishing improvements and touting them as necessary.

Since index, the only real game changer for anyone except racers has
been e-bikes. And that's because they're a step away from being a bicycle.

You could put a power meter on a beater to monitor your recovery from a
heart attack. Power-meter (and heart monitor) are purchased by elite
athletes and old ladies. People have a lot of reasons for wanting power
data -- including plain old curiosity. It's not just the latest and greatest mentality.

People may have lots of reasons they think they want a power meter, but
my point is it's not going to make a significant difference to anyone
but a racer.

You don't really need one to get in shape; and if it does help you get
in slightly-even-better shape, so what? If you're not racing, it just
doesn't matter.


The toughest race out there is always the one against yourself. Being able
to objectively quantify things can up the competition (ie: you can’t just
blame the wind for a slow day).

Op zaterdag 1 mei 2021 om 01:00:03 UTC+2 schreef Mark J.:
On 4/30/2021 2:27 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op vrijdag 30 april 2021 om 18:41:31 UTC+2 schreef Frank Krygowski:
On 4/30/2021 11:19 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
I wouldn't complain if it was $25. But we're talking $500 and up. And that is a lot of money for almost no return.
That logic applies as well to almost every "you gotta have it!" bit of
bike technology since index shifting. The industry is chasing after ever
diminishing improvements and touting them as necessary.

Like any other commercial industry.


Since index, the only real game changer for anyone except racers has
been e-bikes. And that's because they're a step away from being a bicycle.

Also for non racers there are many improvements and E bikes is certainly a game changer. It's a 'plaque' around here. Now also 'old' people can go fast or less fast without getting tired or sweating. Teenager already go to school on a E bike.

Lou

Agree, but please tell me what 'plaque' means in this context?

Mark J.


Ai, lot of typos. What happened here is because of E bikesfor a lot of people biking became a hobby because they don't get (too) tired anymore. There are pelotons E bikers now of people 60 yr and older. That is all good, but the problem is that they don't pay attention, always ride two abreast even if it is not wise and a lot of them have a hearing problem. I'm still in a shape that I go faster which means I have to fright my way through them. On a nice Sunday afternoon this is almost impossible without getting irritated now and then. I adapt and chose to ride outside the 'rush hours', but they got scarce. The numbers of people killed in traffic went up the last years here, mainly because the people on E bikes can't handle their E bike in the current traffic.

Lou

On Friday, April 30, 2021 at 7:50:02 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/30/2021 4:43 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, April 30, 2021 at 9:41:31 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/30/2021 11:19 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
I wouldn't complain if it was $25. But we're talking $500 and up. And that is a lot of money for almost no return.
That logic applies as well to almost every "you gotta have it!" bit of
bike technology since index shifting. The industry is chasing after ever
diminishing improvements and touting them as necessary.

Since index, the only real game changer for anyone except racers has
been e-bikes. And that's because they're a step away from being a bicycle.

You could put a power meter on a beater to monitor your recovery from a heart attack. Power-meter (and heart monitor) are purchased by elite athletes and old ladies. People have a lot of reasons for wanting power data -- including plain old curiosity. It's not just the latest and greatest mentality.
People may have lots of reasons they think they want a power meter, but
my point is it's not going to make a significant difference to anyone
but a racer.

You don't really need one to get in shape; and if it does help you get
in slightly-even-better shape, so what? If you're not racing, it just
doesn't matter.

I don't think that it gets you in better shape - I believe that it gets you into your best shape a little more rapidly. It is really clear to me when I get into shape, suddenly the hills are no longer endless and while I expend just as much energy it doesn't hurt so much and I am not sore for days.

On Saturday, May 1, 2021 at 9:11:15 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Friday, April 30, 2021 at 7:50:02 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/30/2021 4:43 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, April 30, 2021 at 9:41:31 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/30/2021 11:19 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
I wouldn't complain if it was $25. But we're talking $500 and up. And that is a lot of money for almost no return.
That logic applies as well to almost every "you gotta have it!" bit of
bike technology since index shifting. The industry is chasing after ever
diminishing improvements and touting them as necessary.

Since index, the only real game changer for anyone except racers has
been e-bikes. And that's because they're a step away from being a bicycle.

You could put a power meter on a beater to monitor your recovery from a heart attack. Power-meter (and heart monitor) are purchased by elite athletes and old ladies. People have a lot of reasons for wanting power data -- including plain old curiosity. It's not just the latest and greatest mentality.
People may have lots of reasons they think they want a power meter, but
my point is it's not going to make a significant difference to anyone
but a racer.

You don't really need one to get in shape; and if it does help you get
in slightly-even-better shape, so what? If you're not racing, it just
doesn't matter.
I don't think that it gets you in better shape - I believe that it gets you into your best shape a little more rapidly. It is really clear to me when I get into shape, suddenly the hills are no longer endless and while I expend just as much energy it doesn't hurt so much and I am not sore for days..

Well I think I have figured this out. I don't need a power meter as I am in shape and know how to get in shape or stay in shape. I don't race at all and I am getting slower although the decline is something I can manage. What I have not managed is my decline in running ability and with Runner's Dystonia it is impossible at times for me to remember how to run.

A power meter would just be a statistical thing I look at and ponder the data. That would be fun but really probably I would rather spend the money on a Gibson L5 jazz guitar. So I will put it on hold for the moment. I don't need the L5 either but at least I can play it and have much fun. I doubt anyone here has one to sell much less know what it is.............Frank set me straight he had good points.

Deacon Mark