Assembly of Di2

On 1/30/2020 6:20 PM, jbeattie wrote:
The benefit of Di2 is lack of cable sticking under the BB or elsewhere, particularly for those of us who ride in the rain much of the time -- although my commuter swamp-mobile has cable shifting, and it works fine until the BB gets massively caked with mud, leaves, etc. My friend has chronic problems with cable sticking on his CX and rain bike, and he's fastidious with cleanliness and lubrication, so the problem varies by bike. Di2 is also nice for crisp shifts, but otherwise its a novelty.

I've had just a few problems over the years with sticky cables.
Admittedly, my riding environment has usually (not always) been cleaner
than yours. But if sticky cables had turned into a chronic problem, I'm
sure I could have cobbled together a solution that was far, far simpler
than Di2!

One bike I have and one I used to have used a 3" bit of cable housing
above the bottom bracket to turn the front derailleur cable from the
down tube upwards along the seat tube. That was worst, since water
filled it and rusted the cable; and in winter, it would freeze solid.
For a long time, I used a dab of silicon seal on each end of the housing
to minimize water entry, which helped a lot but wasn't perfect.

My touring bike and my mountain bike both pass the cables under the
bottom bracket in plastic grooves. I have to clean that area
occasionally, but it's not been a big problem, even when touring many
miles off road, like the muddy C&O Towpath Trail. I lube that with
paraffin wax* plus a dry lube like Dri-Slide.

(* I know you're surprised!)

A couple other bikes have open cable guides brazed on. Those seem the
most trouble free to me. And my main folding bike (Bike Friday) has
completely enclosed cables, which don't stick, but sometimes worked a
bit inconsistently due to the flex and un-flex of folding.

I think if I needed a Portland Rain Bike, I'd go with totally enclosed
cables. Unfashionable but probably trouble free.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thu, 30 Jan 2020 19:42:07 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 1/30/2020 6:20 PM, jbeattie wrote:
The benefit of Di2 is lack of cable sticking under the BB or elsewhere, particularly for those of us who ride in the rain much of the time -- although my commuter swamp-mobile has cable shifting, and it works fine until the BB gets massively caked with mud, leaves, etc. My friend has chronic problems with cable sticking on his CX and rain bike, and he's fastidious with cleanliness and lubrication, so the problem varies by bike. Di2 is also nice for crisp shifts, but otherwise its a novelty.

I've had just a few problems over the years with sticky cables.
Admittedly, my riding environment has usually (not always) been cleaner
than yours. But if sticky cables had turned into a chronic problem, I'm
sure I could have cobbled together a solution that was far, far simpler
than Di2!

One bike I have and one I used to have used a 3" bit of cable housing
above the bottom bracket to turn the front derailleur cable from the
down tube upwards along the seat tube. That was worst, since water
filled it and rusted the cable; and in winter, it would freeze solid.
For a long time, I used a dab of silicon seal on each end of the housing
to minimize water entry, which helped a lot but wasn't perfect.

My touring bike and my mountain bike both pass the cables under the
bottom bracket in plastic grooves. I have to clean that area
occasionally, but it's not been a big problem, even when touring many
miles off road, like the muddy C&O Towpath Trail. I lube that with
paraffin wax* plus a dry lube like Dri-Slide.

(* I know you're surprised!)

A couple other bikes have open cable guides brazed on. Those seem the
most trouble free to me. And my main folding bike (Bike Friday) has
completely enclosed cables, which don't stick, but sometimes worked a
bit inconsistently due to the flex and un-flex of folding.

I think if I needed a Portland Rain Bike, I'd go with totally enclosed
cables. Unfashionable but probably trouble free.

Gee Frank, you have to stop this. I am forced to agree with you yet
again :-)

Let me say that I have NEVER had a problem with sticking cables,
neither on bicycles or, in my collage days, motorcycles. Never!

Of course, I wash and lub, where required, my vehicles from time to
time and I do use plastic lined cable housings, now that they are
available, and in the old days I did grease the cables when
assembling, but cable sticking? Never.

--
cheers,

John B.

On Thursday, January 30, 2020 at 4:42:29 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/30/2020 6:20 PM, jbeattie wrote:
The benefit of Di2 is lack of cable sticking under the BB or elsewhere, particularly for those of us who ride in the rain much of the time -- although my commuter swamp-mobile has cable shifting, and it works fine until the BB gets massively caked with mud, leaves, etc. My friend has chronic problems with cable sticking on his CX and rain bike, and he's fastidious with cleanliness and lubrication, so the problem varies by bike. Di2 is also nice for crisp shifts, but otherwise its a novelty.

I've had just a few problems over the years with sticky cables.
Admittedly, my riding environment has usually (not always) been cleaner
than yours. But if sticky cables had turned into a chronic problem, I'm
sure I could have cobbled together a solution that was far, far simpler
than Di2!

One bike I have and one I used to have used a 3" bit of cable housing
above the bottom bracket to turn the front derailleur cable from the
down tube upwards along the seat tube. That was worst, since water
filled it and rusted the cable; and in winter, it would freeze solid.
For a long time, I used a dab of silicon seal on each end of the housing
to minimize water entry, which helped a lot but wasn't perfect.

My touring bike and my mountain bike both pass the cables under the
bottom bracket in plastic grooves. I have to clean that area
occasionally, but it's not been a big problem, even when touring many
miles off road, like the muddy C&O Towpath Trail. I lube that with
paraffin wax* plus a dry lube like Dri-Slide.

(* I know you're surprised!)

A couple other bikes have open cable guides brazed on. Those seem the
most trouble free to me. And my main folding bike (Bike Friday) has
completely enclosed cables, which don't stick, but sometimes worked a
bit inconsistently due to the flex and un-flex of folding.

I think if I needed a Portland Rain Bike, I'd go with totally enclosed
cables. Unfashionable but probably trouble free.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but the best rain bike would be a wildly expensive IGH with discs, fenders -- probably chain drive. I'm not sold on belts, but they may be fine. Titanium would be nice. Maybe this little charmer from the local Ti builder. https://www.ticycles.com/products-bi...m-all-arounder Hmmm. It does not purport to be handbuilt in Portland, like the other frames. Seems suspicious. Actually, my next rain commuter is going to be an eBike so I can blow the doors off the unsuspecting rubes creeping up the hills on their non-eBikes. I was actually shocked this morning when I passed a mom on a cargo bike and a kid up front with NO motor. Those mom-mobiles are almost always motorized.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 31/01/2020 00:13, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, 30 January 2020 17:40:19 UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, January 30, 2020 at 1:59:12 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute
wrote:
On Thursday, January 30, 2020 at 3:38:01 PM UTC, Tom Kunich
wrote:

The older Di2 doesn't download later firmware. It also doesn't
have automatic shifting etc. In my opinion that is entirely
unnecessary.

Again, given under the condition that my Di2 system is totally
different, intended for commuters:

The Di2 "smoker" system gave you a choice sides the normal
settings of sporting etc of full auto or assisted electronic
shift where you would have to press a button to change gear. I
found that when in the press-a-button mode I didn't take all that
much less time over a circuit I rode every day of the week than
when I had manual hub gears. The reason was, and is, that because
I don't have the gift of cadence, I hang on to gears too long,
just mashing through. However, in the full auto mode I knocked
minutes off a 40m ride, a really appreciable difference since
those days I didn't ride for fun but for necessary exercise and
just wanted to get the hell back to my work.

Of course, if you have a good cadence and are used to changing
gears for many small steps, the difference will not be as big as
it was for me, but I'm loath to believe will be negligible.

Andre Jute I started cycling too late to be a roadie

The single advantage of Di2 is that you never have to worry about
"cable stretch". Tuesday in the middle of a damn rain shower the
front derailleur cable pulled out and I had to do the remainder of
the ride in the small ring. While stopped for coffee I repaired it
but I was afraid it might break again and send the cable through
the spokes or something and disable me so I waited until I was done
with all of the hills before shifting into the big ring. It worked
fine but it might not have. And this is with Campy Cables - the
best you can buy. I just completely changed that cable this
morning. It required me to strip the handlebar tape off and then I
discovered that the outer was pulling apart at the lever. So I
repaired everything. I had to go through 8 inner cables before I
found one that was long enough. I don't know where I could have
gotten cables that short. Anyway they are in the trashcan now.

Gee whiz Tom. It's a simple matter to turn an adjusting screw to
limit the front derailleur to the middle ring.

Or wedge a piece of roadkill into it to keep it on whatever ring you
like, the advantage is if you get to a big hill you can pull it out for
the Granny cog and re-insert it later.

Was this on a regular derailleur or on your Di2 setup? Why couldn't
you just reattach the cable to the front derailleur at the side of
the road? That should take only a few seconds.

Cheers

On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 1:14:52 AM UTC, jbeattie wrote:

I can't believe I'm saying this, but the best rain bike would be a wildly expensive IGH with discs, fenders -- probably chain drive. I'm not sold on belts, but they may be fine.

Ahem. Once you have IGH, *the* right option is a KMC chain running for its entire life on the factory lube inside a Hebie Chainglider, zero cleaning, zero lubing, zero service. If you haven't read this report from where I hang out with real cyclists, you will be amazed at what about fifty bucks worth of hard German reinforced rubber can do for you:
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index....42349#msg42349
Much more about chain cases and the Chainglider in particular on that forum availble through the search engine.

Actually, my next rain commuter is going to be an eBike so I can blow the doors off the unsuspecting rubes creeping up the hills on their non-eBikes.

An agreeable e-bike commuter is 250 or 350W, quite powerful enough unless you're the size of an elephant. Those 750W monsters that are legal in the US require too much attention when you're riding in traffic, either with cars or other cyclists. The best plan is to buy a motor kit with control elements and a battery, rather than one of the ready-made ebikes for commuters, which are dull. If you can remove and fit a bottom bracket, you can do the conversion in twenty minutes; I did mine on my way to the hospital for heart surgery. The only make and model range to consider is the Bafang (also branded 8FUN) bottom bracket motor called BB which come in several power ratings. The Bafang even in the 250 and 350W motors offer more torque than any of the others and it's torque that matters in a commuter (and on the hills) rather than horsepower. Make absolutely sure you get the controller you can change yourself; some idiot dealers think they're auxiliaries of the nanny state and sell only the non-resetable controller, set to it's most useless programme. Your Chianglider will carry forward to it if the chainring and sprocket are the same tooth count.

Andre Jute
Been there, done that, moved on to something more exciting well before they started handing out t-shirts

On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 1:14:52 AM UTC, jbeattie wrote:
Maybe this little charmer from the local Ti builder. https://www.ticycles.com/products-bi...m-all-arounder

Are you kidding me? $1950 for a frame without a fork?

I admire the casual way you offer to take one for the team, but you're blinded by love if you cannot see that that frame will break where the rear end is crudely welded to the chain stay, that the slider for the axle hanger (it's the slot with the bolt in it; it is used to take slack out of the chain on an HGB bike by hanging a piece of machined aluminium in it on each side with a long vertical slot that takes the axle and torque reactor of the Rohloff) is too short for a Rohloff or possibly a NuVinci too, and that it requires two bolts, not just one, and a channel for the axle hanger to slide in both to locate it positively and because enormous forces are resolved here. Who wants to end up with an HGB bike with an ugly chain tension arm and jockey wheel hanging of the rear end and on the other side a dirty great big torque strut alongside the chain stay? As an HGB frame, it's a botch-job from the start. You can't use the Gates drive belt that you mention on this frame: the frame would have to be split: another failure point on titanium. That thing is a nasty accident waiting to happen in heavy traffic on a cold and wet winter's night.

The right way to do it, with an axle hanger and torque reactor and disc brake bracket too if you want it, all in one, designed by Herr Rohloff:
http://coolmainpress.com/AndreJute'sUtopiaKranich.pdf
and scroll down until you come to a non-drive side closeup of a rear wheel. Look closely. Just underneath the axle nut of the Rohloff Speed 14 in the slot sits a small oval nub: that's the Rohloff torque arm, and the slot reacts it. The sliders used for tensioning the chain are actually the whole ali piece, which slides in a channel, and in disc brake versions (the non-disc version is because I favour Magura rim hydraulics) there's a mounting for the disc callipers which consequently slide with the axle and never need to be adjusted. The alternative is the usual road bike rear end plus an eccentric bottom bracket, which is a pain in the posterior to say the least, and every couple of years must be replaced because it forces a tiny bottom bracket on you, and the ali of the eccentric housing gets churned up by the setting screws.

I ride a bike widely known as the "Rolls-Royce of bicycles". A replacement frame suitable for a Rohloff costs around 40% as much as that ti frame including the fork and an iconic headset and will take 60mm balloons with mudguards so that you can be comfortable on your bike in your old age. See the "Kranich rahmen" dropdown menu at:
https://www.utopia-velo.de/vertrieb/ersatzteile/
Or if you want a less flamboyant frame, try the London frame (especially for tall people, though the Kranich goes up to 59in -- I have one and it is a bloody great big bike: I sit head and shoulders above Range Rovers and intimidate the **** out of their drivers) or the Roadster.

Or you buy can a whole fully fitted-out bike for the Utopia price for a frame, throw away the parts you don't want, keep the rest, and for the price of a ti frame (which, considering your luck, sooner or later will break), build up a complete electric bike with first class components. That's from WorkCycles in The Netherlands. Their Kranich equivalent is at
http://www.workcycles.com/home-produ...e-step-through
and their Roadster equivalent for very tall people is at
http://www.workcycles.com/home-produ...-pastoorsfiets. If you're wondering, those are the same frames, except not so nicely finished, but they're built by Van Raam (an aptonym, both a man's name a description of what he does, raam = frame) who used to be Utopia's frame builder until a couple of years ago.

WorkCycles used to advertise their frames too at about half the price Utopia charges (a Utopia frame is finished like a jewel, for instance with stainless inserts on the insides of the rear Rohloff sliders where no one will ever see them, so there is a difference which matters to their customers who commute in the back of chauffeur-driven cars and ride their Utopia up a mountain over weekends and camp out with Herr Rohloff in the forest surrounding the Utopia factory in the summer) but I can't find the frames on Workcycles' site now, presumably because they don't have any spare frames to sell (the stated reason for Utopia and Van Raam parting ways was that Van Raam was too busy making their own handicapped mobility vehicles to make Utopia's frames as well).

If you have the balls for it, in two senses, one being that people will stare at you, the other being that the bike has a full length hammock seat and you don't want to mount or dismount it wrong, Utopia took over the North German Pedersen stock of bikes when it's founder Kalle Kalkhoff died, so they have Pedersen bikes and frames to sell. That's a superb bike, first built in 1996 but by modern standards it looks decidedly odd; it works fabulously well, especially for tall people. Here's an American enthusiast and local representative; he too might still have stock. In any event, check out his links for the historical interest.

If you don't have the face to bring off a more rational frame and want something that looks like everyone else's bike, every year in the winter you can buy pretty good diamond-frame Rohloff bikes, otherwise also fully equipped, from about 1500 to 2500 Euro on Ebay.de and other German equivalents as manufacturers make space for the new year's production. Add a motor -- or buy one with a motor already installed, fit your choice of drop handlebars (they generally come with North Road or flat bars), and for well under three grand you can have a top class HGB mid-motor electric bike in either steel or ali. With the benefit of an exotic brand name on it, or you can find a Raleigh here and there and Giants by the dozen, or sometimes a Trek from Trek Benelux (same frame as sold in the States, much better class of components, and fully fitted out to a standard unimagined by the Trek HQ -- or otherwise they would long since have put a stop to it). Towards the upper end of that bracket you might find a Rohloff-equipped Royal Dutch Gazelle or a Koga-Miyata (a vaguely Japanese-sounding name thought up by two Dutchmen, latterly an upmarket division of Gazelle), but I found that Dutch dealers on the whole don't want to be bothered with shipping bikes overseas while the Germans will help you find the cheapest shipping; two out of the three bikes I currently have were bought in Germany.

Ti? Not so much. Or rather, much more.

Andre Jute
I used to dream of a polished stainless steel bike

On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 2:07:59 AM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 1:14:52 AM UTC, jbeattie wrote:

I can't believe I'm saying this, but the best rain bike would be a wildly expensive IGH with discs, fenders -- probably chain drive. I'm not sold on belts, but they may be fine.

Ahem. Once you have IGH, *the* right option is a KMC chain running for its entire life on the factory lube inside a Hebie Chainglider, zero cleaning, zero lubing, zero service. If you haven't read this report from where I hang out with real cyclists, you will be amazed at what about fifty bucks worth of hard German reinforced rubber can do for you:
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index....42349#msg42349
Much more about chain cases and the Chainglider in particular on that forum availble through the search engine.

Actually, my next rain commuter is going to be an eBike so I can blow the doors off the unsuspecting rubes creeping up the hills on their non-eBikes.

An agreeable e-bike commuter is 250 or 350W, quite powerful enough unless you're the size of an elephant. Those 750W monsters that are legal in the US require too much attention when you're riding in traffic, either with cars or other cyclists. The best plan is to buy a motor kit with control elements and a battery, rather than one of the ready-made ebikes for commuters, which are dull. If you can remove and fit a bottom bracket, you can do the conversion in twenty minutes; I did mine on my way to the hospital for heart surgery. The only make and model range to consider is the Bafang (also branded 8FUN) bottom bracket motor called BB which come in several power ratings. The Bafang even in the 250 and 350W motors offer more torque than any of the others and it's torque that matters in a commuter (and on the hills) rather than horsepower. Make absolutely sure you get the controller you can change yourself; some idiot dealers think they're auxiliaries of the nanny state and sell only the non-resetable controller, set to it's most useless programme. Your Chianglider will carry forward to it if the chainring and sprocket are the same tooth count.

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/s-...=261000-170237 Waiting for my son to find a scratch and dent return at the Specialized warehouse.

Some dope on an eBike blew my doors off riding home last night. "I'll get you Mr. eBike! Your time will come!" [shaking fist in dark, pouring rain.]

-- Jay Beattie.

On Thursday, January 30, 2020 at 5:14:52 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, January 30, 2020 at 4:42:29 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/30/2020 6:20 PM, jbeattie wrote:
The benefit of Di2 is lack of cable sticking under the BB or elsewhere, particularly for those of us who ride in the rain much of the time -- although my commuter swamp-mobile has cable shifting, and it works fine until the BB gets massively caked with mud, leaves, etc. My friend has chronic problems with cable sticking on his CX and rain bike, and he's fastidious with cleanliness and lubrication, so the problem varies by bike. Di2 is also nice for crisp shifts, but otherwise its a novelty.

I've had just a few problems over the years with sticky cables.
Admittedly, my riding environment has usually (not always) been cleaner
than yours. But if sticky cables had turned into a chronic problem, I'm
sure I could have cobbled together a solution that was far, far simpler
than Di2!

One bike I have and one I used to have used a 3" bit of cable housing
above the bottom bracket to turn the front derailleur cable from the
down tube upwards along the seat tube. That was worst, since water
filled it and rusted the cable; and in winter, it would freeze solid.
For a long time, I used a dab of silicon seal on each end of the housing
to minimize water entry, which helped a lot but wasn't perfect.

My touring bike and my mountain bike both pass the cables under the
bottom bracket in plastic grooves. I have to clean that area
occasionally, but it's not been a big problem, even when touring many
miles off road, like the muddy C&O Towpath Trail. I lube that with
paraffin wax* plus a dry lube like Dri-Slide.

(* I know you're surprised!)

A couple other bikes have open cable guides brazed on. Those seem the
most trouble free to me. And my main folding bike (Bike Friday) has
completely enclosed cables, which don't stick, but sometimes worked a
bit inconsistently due to the flex and un-flex of folding.

I think if I needed a Portland Rain Bike, I'd go with totally enclosed
cables. Unfashionable but probably trouble free.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but the best rain bike would be a wildly expensive IGH with discs, fenders -- probably chain drive. I'm not sold on belts, but they may be fine. Titanium would be nice. Maybe this little charmer from the local Ti builder. https://www.ticycles.com/products-bi...m-all-arounder Hmmm. It does not purport to be handbuilt in Portland, like the other frames. Seems suspicious. Actually, my next rain commuter is going to be an eBike so I can blow the doors off the unsuspecting rubes creeping up the hills on their non-eBikes. I was actually shocked this morning when I passed a mom on a cargo bike and a kid up front with NO motor. Those mom-mobiles are almost always motorized.

-- Jay Beattie.

A chain and sprocket has almost no power loss whereas belts have rather high loses in the neighborhood of 5%. Going slow in the rain I suppose you wouldn't feel much loss but trying to get in and out of the rain in a hurry would certainly open your eyes.

On Thursday, January 9, 2020 at 9:43:42 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
It occurs to me that I should install the hydraulic brakes before I attach the electronic wiring. What do you think?

Well, it appears that the battery as you all thought was good. The charger, rather opposite a description I read, doesn't have a "green light" on the charger to show a full charge. It only shows a yellow light when it is charging.

So, I watched the Shimano service and assembly video again and again tried it and again got nothing out of the Stem unit. So that appears to be a failure. So what I bought thinking that it was an Ultegra Di2 group was an Ultegra front and rear derailleur, 785 levers instead of Ultegra and a faulty EW67-B (Stem control unit).

With this I will no longer buy anything off of Craig's List. At least with eBay you have a money back guarantee.

On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 4:35:31 AM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 1:14:52 AM UTC, jbeattie wrote:
Maybe this little charmer from the local Ti builder. https://www.ticycles.com/products-bi...m-all-arounder

Are you kidding me? $1950 for a frame without a fork?

I was going to link to the Ti frame I think Lou is buying, but that might cause too much of a shock to many here. Like I said, the purchase will affect the USA/NL trade balance. But one is allowed to buy fine titanium toys so long as one's wife doesn't complain. Personally, the Utopia is far to Byzantine for me and my CAAD X swamp-mobile is fine enough. It's such a dog now with the fat rubber and dyno hub. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7kgzgcqe5s

-- Jay Beattie.