new set of wheels or a new bike

Roland Aubin wrote:

The reason that i want something new is that the bike is 15 years old and
i thought that with newer groupset, wheels, frames that i would be shedding
some weight and it would improve my riding speed. Somehow i dont seem
to be able to go over 30km/hr (18mph). I also thought that newer bike
would
be smoother to ride on.

I concur with everything russellseat said... a new bike will not
really be smoother or faster... except by tiny amounts... and if you
aren't racing, speed doesn't matter at all. But that doesn't mean that
you should or shouldn't get it.

You might want to consider removing your computer... just ride however
fast you want to go... however you feel. 18mph is a decent pace. If you
want to time yourself sometimes you can use a stopwatch. The problem
with the little computers is that we tend to always look at them, and
it takes away from the experience IMO.

Roland Aubin wrote:

The reason that i want something new is that the bike is 15 years old and
i thought that with newer groupset, wheels, frames that i would be shedding
some weight and it would improve my riding speed. Somehow i dont seem
to be able to go over 30km/hr (18mph). I also thought that newer bike
would
be smoother to ride on. Yes a new bike would be nice but a titanium frame
with centaur and set of wheels i about $5,000.00 CDN. If i only gain in
comfort
then to me it's a waste of money. This is also why i asked if buying a
titanium frame
would be too much bike for me, just to train for my cardio over 60km/day.

"Somehow" hitting a wall for speed on a certain course is something
many, many cyclists (runners, etc. etc.) have done, myself included.
The course length, from talking to others over the years, is usually
that 60k, too! ("You are not alone!")

Riding in groups is one way around that "problem" that is cheaper and
(possibly) more fun than spending big bucks on bike stuff. But, nothing
wrong with buying a little speed, either. Or, a nice retirement gift to
self? Beats the heck out a watch, especially once you don't have to be
so concerned about the time of day... (I never did get the watch
thing).

IMHO, you should check out the Habanero site if you haven't already
(Mark Hickey is a freq. contrib. here; excellent deal on custom sizing
if that applies to you; lower price yet for "normal" sizing). His stock
finish is "owner repairable", an asset for long-term ownership. No
rust, no repaints. habcycles.com, I think is the right place.

I have a custom, but "made for someone else" Ti frame, bought used
(lucky me! although it is painted, and nicked, too). It's a very nice
ride. I have to say, a level nicer (smoother, more comfy) than my early
90's Tommasini (which is Columbus SL and probably very comparable to
your fine Marinoni), partly from the weight difference and (much more),
from finally having a long top tube that fits me after all these years.
The Tommi, still a very nice ride. Great "spare"(!) that I enjoyed
riding this summer while dithering with an Ergo lever rebuild. Yes, a
"comfort" issue g, but the Tommi isn't chopped liver by any means. It
certainly "passes muster" on group rides, which frankly always
surprises me, but steel is still real, after all g.

I know a very happy Davidson custom titanium owner, a local ace woman
rider/racer. From Seattle: davidsonbicycles.com. More expensive than
the Habanero, still less than the big brands.

I also know a local rider ("me") who really, really enjoyed going to
Europe on an extended trip a few years ago. Nice to have the choices...

Factory built wheels aren't too popular here, as you've noticed. (My
refrain): you can just about build two sets of conventionals for the
price of one factory-built set (conventional = Campy 36 hole hub,
butted spokes, brass nipples, 3 cross, with for example Velocity
Aerohead rims, the OC model for the rear, with offset spoke holes for
more even spoke tension, this all per Peter Chisholm of vecchios.com,
another site to look at if you yet haven't). That's a lot more miles
for the money, with a very small performance difference, in reference
to speed or weight of the wheels. Another big plus, in service/repair:
no special (very) expensive or unobtainable parts, no returns to the
factory for repair, better hubs than at least some of the factory
specials, etc. etc. I have an Aerohead OC rear (Campy, 36 hole hub)
owned a few months now, still true after some reasonably hard use, that
is also a much more solid-feeling wheel (not meaning harsh-riding, but
during cornering), than the 32-spoke box-section rim that is now the
spare rear wheel for that bike. My "two sets of wheels" is something of
a leftover from my (ahem) racing days, but it's very handy to be able
to swap wheels if you bash a rim or discover a slow leak has gone flat
right at ride time.

Good luck with your choices, enjoy your retirement! --Tom Paterson

In article ,
"Roland Aubin" wrote:

"Ryan Cousineau" wrote in message
...

Hi Roland: let me pile on with a bit more advice. First, I'm a bike
racer, so yes, I own a pair of relatively light, relatively aero wheels.
I hardly ever ride them except on race days.

The question here is what constitutes "making a difference." If you have
a 15-year-old Marinoni, well, you could probably manage to lose about 5
pounds off the total bike, and maybe 2 pounds off the frame if you
upgraded to something expensive. But you don't race!


exactly and that's the reason i wrote "would a new titanium bike be to much
of a bike for me". Just riding for my cardio then maybe my current setup
is good enough. The thing i'd like to improve right now would be my speed
I'd like to ride over 30km/hr. Maybe i'ts not a new bike but training
session
with a coach. My boss and friend has been with Carmichael training via the
internet. He said that the sessions really helped him.

For the specific goal of riding faster, coaching or more structured
training are the ways to go. If you were interested in an equipment
change, the single piece of equipment that would add the most speed
would be a set of aero bars, if you can handle the riding position.

Carmichael is a program that has helped a lot of people, though I might
compare it in price to local coaches; a good place to ask around is
local cycling clubs and teams.

Well, that was going to be my recommendation, then I found out that you
have a heart history, and McGill has this:

http://www.chiprehab.com/english/chip_prog.html

It's a cardio program aimed at people with a history of heart disease.

-If you're into gadgetry, HRM bike computers and power meters that can
download data to your computer are cool, and range in price from about
$200 to $1500.

I am not familiar with what you are mentionning. Do you have any web site
that i can check?

An HRM is a heart rate monitor. There are quite a few cycling-specific
models out there, ranging from basic units like my Cateye CC-100HB,
which is a basic bike computer with a heart rate readout, to the really
crazy high-end units from Polar, SRM, and others, which can download
ride data to your computer for further analysis, and have features like
power monitoring and altimeters.

I'm guessing here, but I suspect you're fairly naïve about training
tactics like intervals, which are specifically the simplest, most
effective training method for increasing speed. I'm also loath to be too
detailed here, because, well, you have a history of heart problems and
should talk to specialists about your specific needs. You may have to
balance some training techniques against the risk they might kill you.
As it happens, there's a program just for you in your own home town. I
think I'd start there.

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

Roland Aubin wrote:
"41" wrote in message
oups.com...

Roland Aubin wrote:
stuff deleted............
It would help if you could explain exactly what you find unsatisfactory
or defective with your present bicycle, that spurs you to require a new
one. Then we would be better able to evaluate your options. As it
stands, you have described an excellent, high quality bicycle in good
condition that would be the envy of many.


Indeed the bike is great and has been maintained on a regular basis. There
is nothing wrong with it except the fact that it is 15 years old. I was
just
planning on upgrading the bike as a present for my retirement.


Take the money and buy a bike tour, like one of Andy Hampsten's tour in
Italia..

I do not
race
and only ride for my cardio. I try to go everyday for 60km and i average
about 300km(+-) a week roughly. This is the reason of the original post.
Maybe i should have also included in my set of questions " Should i keep my
current setup" More and more after reading the advice of many of you guys
i'm tempted to keep my current bike.

Jasper Janssen wrote:
On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 01:44:46 -0500, "Roland Aubin"
wrote:

look for are in order of importance: the crank/pedal, wheels, groupset and
finaly the frame. It got me thinking that

I'd rank that frame, wheels, group (which typically includes the crank),
everything else, and pedals dead last. Since new bikes come without
pedals, so you're getting the ones you want to put on it, period.

This ought to be interesting. Frame first, wheels next, reliable ones.
Good saddle, decent brakes...all else can be anything....



Would a new set of wheels make a difference with my current setup or would
it be a waste of money?

Depends what you want. It'll look cool, if you like that sort of thing.
The weight/aero difference might conceivably get you infinitesimally
faster, but it won't be very significant.

If I were you, I think I'd just upgrade your current bike. If the stuff
that's on the bike is in good condition, maybe just a rebuild from scratch
-- take everything off, clean it, and reinstall all the components looking
sparkly, with fresh cables/housing/handlebar tape etc. If it's in less
good condition, so that you might want to upgrade with a whole new
groupset (and if your rear wheel is campy 8, that'd mean a change to campy
9/10), a whole new bike starts to be financially extremely attractive.
*Especially* if you're not going to do the work yourself, but farm it out
to your LBS.

Jasper

Roland Aubin wrote:

The reason that i want something new is that the bike is 15 years old and
i thought that with newer groupset, wheels, frames that i would be shedding
some weight and it would improve my riding spe ed. Somehow i dont seem
to be able to go over 30km/hr (18mph). I also thought that newer bike
would
be smoother to ride on.

Aha. Now I can be more specific:

1. Since you mentioned in another post that you do not ride hills, you
will be glad to know that losing even 10 lbs on the bike will improve
your speed exactly... zero. Weight only makes a difference to riding
speed up and down hills. Uphill, less weight is a little faster,
downhill, more weight gives more momentum. But in the range you are
talking about, even if you did ride hills, it would not be all that
much. Remember that 5lbs out of 20-25 sounds like a lot, but it is the
total weight that matters, and that is more likely something like
175-200 lbs. As I mentioned, lighter weight only really matters a lot
when you are trying to lift it onto the roof rack or carry it up or
down stairs.

2. The only "optional" (non-fit, non-steering related) parameter of the
frame that makes a difference to riding "smoothness" is rear chainstay
length- the longer, the better. This is because you are getting the
center of impact further away from your butt. Since a new super-bike
will undoubtedly have much shorter chainstays than what you've already
got, the new bike would in fact be worse in this regard. Frame material
makes no difference because the tubes are all effectively
incompressible, no matter what the material, and frames are
triangulated, so that vertical forces are always resisted by a tube in
compression. True, if you have a lot of seatpost exposed, that could
give you a little extra compliance, but it's a really bad way to get
it. Want a smoother ride? Get a suspension saddle or change tires (see
below).

3. So you want to go faster and ride smoother. There are three key
variables:

-Your fitnesss. Buy this book, you will find it useful:
ttp://tinyurl.com/9j4qb

-Aerodynamics. Aero bars may help, or otherwise getting a lower
position, perhaps by lowering handlebars. Unfortunately, the more aero,
generally, the less comfortable, perhaps even to the point of being
very painful- you are better off not messing with the handlebars, but
instead riding more on the drops. Do you wear tight, smooth clothing?
Elbows in? You can get more aero wheels but they will be expensive and
have many disadvantages; if you are not racing, avoid.

-Your tires. In practical terms, rolling resistance goes down as
pressure goes up, and aerodynamics get better as the tire gets
narrower. What width & model tires are you riding? Consider going down
to a true 25mm, inflated to something like 95-120 psi. Unfortunately,
again, the higher the pressure and the narrower the tire, the less
comfortable the ride. Avoid kevlar and other puncture resistant
technology, you will gain speed- depending on what exactly, perhaps a
lot. Try IRC Road Winner in 28mm (more like a 25?) or IRC Triathlon in
25 (actual a little narrower?), both without kevlar, if you can find
them. The most recent production is only with kevlar (the Kevlar models
are marked "Duro"). Or, Michelin Carbon in 25mm (this has kevlar beads
but not a kevlar belt, so it is not a great problem). All of the former
should be easily available to you locally (well, except for the issue
of getting the old production without Kevlar); otherwise, try Avocet
Road in 25mm, without Kevlar, which you will have to get mail order
from www.harriscyclery.com. Do not use Continental tires, they are
relatively slow. For fastest riding and best handling, choose only
smooth tread tires. This last choice is pretty well the only one you
can make that for road riding is better all the way around, and doesn't
compromise one virtue for another.

In short: training, riding aerodynamics, and tires are the way to go.

6

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Cousineau"
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 10:28 PM
Subject: new set of wheels or a new bike

For the specific goal of riding faster, coaching or more structured
training are the ways to go. If you were interested in an equipment
change, the single piece of equipment that would add the most speed
would be a set of aero bars, if you can handle the riding position.

Carmichael is a program that has helped a lot of people, though I might
compare it in price to local coaches; a good place to ask around is
local cycling clubs and teams.

Yes i was looking into coaching this winter. My boss is a member of
Carmichael
and he loves their program. He said that it is motivating and the variety
of different
programs take away the boredom of riding a trainer. Of course If you like
to wathc
Ophrah and Dr. Phil then it's not as bad. :-)



Well, that was going to be my recommendation, then I found out that you
have a heart history, and McGill has this:

http://www.chiprehab.com/english/chip_prog.html

It's a cardio program aimed at people with a history of heart disease.

Thanks i'll look into it. As a matter of fact often McGill has programs to
help out
people and they are free.



-If you're into gadgetry, HRM bike computers and power meters that can
download data to your computer are cool, and range in price from about
$200 to $1500.

I am not familiar with what you are mentionning. Do you have any web
site
that i can check?

An HRM is a heart rate monitor. There are quite a few cycling-specific
models out there, ranging from basic units like my Cateye CC-100HB,
which is a basic bike computer with a heart rate readout, to the really
crazy high-end units from Polar, SRM, and others, which can download
ride data to your computer for further analysis, and have features like
power monitoring and altimeters.

I have a heart rate monitor. It's a polar S810 mainly for jogger but it
does
the trick for me. My boss has the one made for cyclist. When you
mentionned
$1500.00 range i though they were specific one for training on a trainer or
something
like this.


I'm guessing here, but I suspect you're fairly naïve about training
tactics like intervals, which are specifically the simplest, most
effective training method for increasing speed. I'm also loath to be too
detailed here, because, well, you have a history of heart problems and
should talk to specialists about your specific needs. You may have to
balance some training techniques against the risk they might kill you.
As it happens, there's a program just for you in your own home town. I
think I'd start there.


No i've read a lot on training tactic but as you mentionned the fact that
i'm cardiac
i'm not sure what my limit are. Every year i go and see my cardiologist
and pass
the treadmill test with flying color often reaching 110% of my max heart
rate with
no detectable problem with my heart. I've asked my cardiologist if racing
would
be good for me but as you can expect and not wanting to get a lawsuit from
my
survivor :-) he didn't recommend it. Same with my family Dr. there is
a couple
of hills in the area such as Mount-Royal (center of Montreal) or
Mount-Rigaud
on the (outskirt of Montreal) but he says to me that knowing my heart
condition
it's not wise to put my heart under the stress of climbing. I have nothing
to benefit
from it he added. I have a stress test comming up in december and i will
ask a
couple of questions to my cardiologist and see what he says.


Thanks again for your time Ryan.

"41" wrote in message
oups.com...


Aha. Now I can be more specific:
stuff deleted.........................

3. So you want to go faster and ride smoother. There are three key
variables:

-Your fitnesss. Buy this book, you will find it useful:
ttp://tinyurl.com/9j4qb

Thanks i like the title of the book "cycling past 50" :-DDD


-Aerodynamics. Aero bars may help, or otherwise getting a lower
position, perhaps by lowering handlebars. Unfortunately, the more aero,
generally, the less comfortable, perhaps even to the point of being
very painful- you are better off not messing with the handlebars, but
instead riding more on the drops. Do you wear tight, smooth clothing?

Always wear tight, smooth clothing.

Elbows in?

Always and i always ride on my drops never on my handle bar.



-Your tires. In practical terms, rolling resistance goes down as
pressure goes up, and aerodynamics get better as the tire gets
narrower. What width & model tires are you riding?

I'm using Michelin pro race kevlar 23mm. It's a present from my
girlfriend. They are blue and she thought it would look good with
my newly blue painted frame that was done last winter.

Consider going down
to a true 25mm, inflated to something like 95-120 psi. Unfortunately,
again, the higher the pressure and the narrower the tire, the less
comfortable the ride. Avoid kevlar and other puncture resistant
technology, you will gain speed- depending on what exactly, perhaps a
lot. Try IRC Road Winner in 28mm (more like a 25?) or IRC Triathlon in
25 (actual a little narrower?), both without kevlar, if you can find
them. The most recent production is only with kevlar (the Kevlar models
are marked "Duro"). Or, Michelin Carbon in 25mm (this has kevlar beads
but not a kevlar belt, so it is not a great problem). All of the former
should be easily available to you locally (well, except for the issue
of getting the old production without Kevlar); otherwise, try Avocet
Road in 25mm, without Kevlar, which you will have to get mail order
from www.harriscyclery.com. Do not use Continental tires, they are
relatively slow. For fastest riding and best handling, choose only
smooth tread tires. This last choice is pretty well the only one you
can make that for road riding is better all the way around, and doesn't
compromise one virtue for another.


Wow you are an encyclopedia on tires. I used to ride continental tires and
i was always satisfied with them. The Michelin were only tried this year
and
i've grown into them also. A reason for not being able to reach a better
speed
since i started riding again after my heart attack in mid-august was that my
bottom
bracket seal broked and water penetrated and rusted the inside. I just
found out
when i picked up my bike from maintenance this wednesday. I have a new
sealed
bottom bracket and i'm sure i'll see a difference now.



In short: training, riding aerodynamics, and tires are the way to go.


Yes i was definitively going to look into training program for the winter.
I'm meeting my
boss for lunch today and since he is training with Carmichael i will get
more informations
on the program.



Thanks for your time again.

wrote in message
ups.com...
Roland Aubin wrote:

Riding in groups is one way around that "problem" that is cheaper and
(possibly) more fun than spending big bucks on bike stuff.

yes i'm planning on rejoining the cycling club in the spring. I'ts always
pleasant
to ride in a group plus the benifit of being shelter from the wind on windy
day. :-)


But, nothing
wrong with buying a little speed, either. Or, a nice retirement gift to
self? Beats the heck out a watch, especially once you don't have to be
so concerned about the time of day... (I never did get the watch
thing).


My thought exactly. I've always enjoyed riding my bike and i love the
freedom,
scenery, quietness (when riding in the farm area).


IMHO, you should check out the Habanero site if you haven't already
(Mark Hickey is a freq. contrib. here; excellent deal on custom sizing
if that applies to you; lower price yet for "normal" sizing). His stock
finish is "owner repairable", an asset for long-term ownership. No
rust, no repaints. habcycles.com, I think is the right place.


The reason i am comfortable in staying with Marinoni though is that they
build a nice bicycle, they are close by so i can service the bicycle there
and they are great. You have a problem during the cycling season bring
your bike there and they'll fix it on the spot if they can. My boss had a
problem with his bottom bracket. We went to Marinoni during our lunch
period and they were able to replace it during that time.


I have a custom, but "made for someone else" Ti frame, bought used
(lucky me! although it is painted, and nicked, too). It's a very nice
ride. I have to say, a level nicer (smoother, more comfy) than my early
90's Tommasini (which is Columbus SL and probably very comparable to
your fine Marinoni), partly from the weight difference and (much more),
from finally having a long top tube that fits me after all these years.
The Tommi, still a very nice ride. Great "spare"(!) that I enjoyed
riding this summer while dithering with an Ergo lever rebuild. Yes, a
"comfort" issue g, but the Tommi isn't chopped liver by any means. It
certainly "passes muster" on group rides, which frankly always
surprises me, but steel is still real, after all g.


Yes always nice to have a spare bicycle in case the other one need to be
serviced.



I know a very happy Davidson custom titanium owner, a local ace woman
rider/racer. From Seattle: davidsonbicycles.com. More expensive than
the Habanero, still less than the big brands.

I also know a local rider ("me") who really, really enjoyed going to
Europe on an extended trip a few years ago. Nice to have the choices...


My girlfriend parent's have a house near Venice, italia. We are planning
to
go this summer.


Factory built wheels aren't too popular here, as you've noticed. (My
refrain): you can just about build two sets of conventionals for the
price of one factory-built set (conventional = Campy 36 hole hub,
butted spokes, brass nipples, 3 cross, with for example Velocity
Aerohead rims, the OC model for the rear, with offset spoke holes for
more even spoke tension, this all per Peter Chisholm of vecchios.com,
another site to look at if you yet haven't). That's a lot more miles
for the money, with a very small performance difference, in reference
to speed or weight of the wheels. Another big plus, in service/repair:
no special (very) expensive or unobtainable parts, no returns to the
factory for repair, better hubs than at least some of the factory
specials, etc. etc. I have an Aerohead OC rear (Campy, 36 hole hub)
owned a few months now, still true after some reasonably hard use, that
is also a much more solid-feeling wheel (not meaning harsh-riding, but
during cornering), than the 32-spoke box-section rim that is now the
spare rear wheel for that bike. My "two sets of wheels" is something of
a leftover from my (ahem) racing days, but it's very handy to be able
to swap wheels if you bash a rim or discover a slow leak has gone flat
right at ride time.

I'll have to digest some of the stuff you wrote on wheels. I'll check the
place
you mentionned.



Good luck with your choices, enjoy your retirement! --Tom Paterson

Thanks Tom for your reply and well wishes.

In article ,
"Roland Aubin" wrote:

-If you're into gadgetry, HRM bike computers and power meters that can
download data to your computer are cool, and range in price from about
$200 to $1500.

I am not familiar with what you are mentionning. Do you have any web
site
that i can check?

An HRM is a heart rate monitor. There are quite a few cycling-specific
models out there, ranging from basic units like my Cateye CC-100HB,
which is a basic bike computer with a heart rate readout, to the really
crazy high-end units from Polar, SRM, and others, which can download
ride data to your computer for further analysis, and have features like
power monitoring and altimeters.

I have a heart rate monitor. It's a polar S810 mainly for jogger but it
does
the trick for me. My boss has the one made for cyclist. When you
mentionned
$1500.00 range i though they were specific one for training on a trainer or
something
like this.

http://biketechreview.com/archive/pm_review.htm

Power meters. I think the current prices are around $500-1500 for these
power meters. All do data logging to PCs and heart rates as well.

Good luck!

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos