TdF and recumbents

On Tue, 29 Jul 2008 13:15:30 -0600, wrote:

On Tue, 29 Jul 2008 02:52:13 -0500, Ben C wrote:

On 2008-07-29, Tom Kunich cyclintom@yahoo wrote:
"Tom Sherman" wrote in message
...

Whats up with bringing off-road cycling into the discussion?

Lost track of which thread I was in. Nevertheless it is perfectly fine in my
book to try to race the Tour de France with a recumbent. Just try to ride
down those Alps roads fast enough to make up for the time lost on the climb.

If recumbents weren't better why would they be banned?

Dear Ben,

Recumbents were banned when a literally second-class rider, Faure,
began winning velodrome races and setting a world hour record with an
unfaired recumbent:
http://www.cyclegenius.com/images/faure.jpg

But the recumbent didn't do as well out on real roads.

A different unfaired recumbent, more upright for road and with another
modest rider, Morand, usually finished in the middle of the pack in
city to city races from Paris:
http://www.hadland.me.uk/velocar.pdf

Many sources say that Morand won Paris-Limoges in 1933 (sometimes they
say 1934), but I've become skeptical enough to want to see something
like an original newspaper proclaiming the victory. No victory is
mentioned by the recumbent's designer Mochet (who was 86 and could
have just forgotten Paris-Limoges or confused 1933 and 1934). In fact,
Mochet ends up saying that the recumbent had no chance of finishing
first:

"In a letter of 19th July 2001, a few days before his 86th birthday,
Georges Mochet supplied the following information about Manuel
Morand:"

"Morand was hired at the beginning of 1934 to take part in road
competitions. He was not a super champion but a good, serious and
conscientious professional racer. He practised on the Velorizontal
with application. He participated in about 15 pro events with
distances in the order of 250 to 350 km. I believe he finished them
all and in honourabl e places. He was all on his own with no
team-mates, no following car, nothing. Given the circumstances, his
performances were admirable."

"The Velorizontal was clearly superior and performed better than a
classic bicycle. We had believed that Morand would win a classic race
quite easily. However, we had ignored the fact that a bicycle race
comprises a bunch of teams. These form very fast elements. If Morand
could last against a bunch over 20 to 30 km, he had against him the 50
to 100 he would have dominated individually. But acting together, they
left him no chance to finish first."
http://www.hadland.me.uk/velocar.pdf

I don't know of any 1930s recumbents competing in any races with
mountain passes.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

It doesn't look good for the claim that Paul or Manuel Morand won the
1933 or 1934 Paris-Limoges race on a recumbent.

Julien Moineau is listed as the winner of the 1933 Paris-Limoges:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julien_Moineau

The only palmares listing for "Manuel Morand" that I can find shows
him taking 16th place in the 1931 Paris-Tours race--not first, not
1933 or 1934, and not Paris-Limoges:

Course Pos Date Saison
Paris-Tours 16 03/05/1931 1931

http://www.les-sports.info/cyclisme-...o1-w54766.html

"Paul" Morand is probably just a frequently repeated mistake, but I
can't find any palmares for him. Unfortunately, searches will bring up
hundreds of entries for a real French author of the same name.

More and more, I wonder if someone misinterpreted the photos of Morand
leading the Paris-Limoges peloton to mean that he won the race, which
would be at odds with what the recumbent designer himself remembered
when he said that Morand had "no chance to finish first."

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Carl Sundquist wrote:

"Tom Sherman" wrote in message
...

[cuuuut]

BTW, here is a chart that could clear everything up, although I don't
know where they obtained their data:
http://www.adventuresofgreg.com/hpvl...speedchart.jpg

Yes, but that is at 250 Watts effort. Can normal people do that?
Can proffesionals do more?


JonB

Tom Sherman wrote:
Tom Kunich wrote:
"Peter Clinch" wrote in message
...

However, if he bothered to look at the UCI hour record and the IHPVA
hour record he'd find a lot more than 20% difference.

If you'd like to get one of the recumbent hour record bikes and race
me on my upright over a course of my choosing you could certainly
demonstrate that 20% difference.

Stop being stupid. The only valid comparison is at equal rider power
outputs. Duh!

What about equal rider weight?

"Jon Bendtsen" wrote in message
...
[...]
I think you are right. I read that this world record seems like
a low hanging fruit, because it has not yet been targeted by professional
bicyclists.

Yea, let's hear it for the freaking professional bike racers, a more stupid
group of assholes never lived. Why do you admire those jerks? I put them on
the level of body builders. In other words, freaks! I could care less what
they do - and they can take their records and stuff them where the sun don't
shine. **** 'em I say!

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

On Wed, 30 Jul 2008 00:53:10 -0600, wrote:

On Tue, 29 Jul 2008 13:15:30 -0600, wrote:

On Tue, 29 Jul 2008 02:52:13 -0500, Ben C wrote:

On 2008-07-29, Tom Kunich cyclintom@yahoo wrote:
"Tom Sherman" wrote in message
...

Whats up with bringing off-road cycling into the discussion?

Lost track of which thread I was in. Nevertheless it is perfectly fine in my
book to try to race the Tour de France with a recumbent. Just try to ride
down those Alps roads fast enough to make up for the time lost on the climb.

If recumbents weren't better why would they be banned?

Dear Ben,

Recumbents were banned when a literally second-class rider, Faure,
began winning velodrome races and setting a world hour record with an
unfaired recumbent:
http://www.cyclegenius.com/images/faure.jpg

But the recumbent didn't do as well out on real roads.

A different unfaired recumbent, more upright for road and with another
modest rider, Morand, usually finished in the middle of the pack in
city to city races from Paris:
http://www.hadland.me.uk/velocar.pdf

Many sources say that Morand won Paris-Limoges in 1933 (sometimes they
say 1934), but I've become skeptical enough to want to see something
like an original newspaper proclaiming the victory. No victory is
mentioned by the recumbent's designer Mochet (who was 86 and could
have just forgotten Paris-Limoges or confused 1933 and 1934). In fact,
Mochet ends up saying that the recumbent had no chance of finishing
first:

"In a letter of 19th July 2001, a few days before his 86th birthday,
Georges Mochet supplied the following information about Manuel
Morand:"

"Morand was hired at the beginning of 1934 to take part in road
competitions. He was not a super champion but a good, serious and
conscientious professional racer. He practised on the Velorizontal
with application. He participated in about 15 pro events with
distances in the order of 250 to 350 km. I believe he finished them
all and in honourabl e places. He was all on his own with no
team-mates, no following car, nothing. Given the circumstances, his
performances were admirable."

"The Velorizontal was clearly superior and performed better than a
classic bicycle. We had believed that Morand would win a classic race
quite easily. However, we had ignored the fact that a bicycle race
comprises a bunch of teams. These form very fast elements. If Morand
could last against a bunch over 20 to 30 km, he had against him the 50
to 100 he would have dominated individually. But acting together, they
left him no chance to finish first."
http://www.hadland.me.uk/velocar.pdf

I don't know of any 1930s recumbents competing in any races with
mountain passes.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

It doesn't look good for the claim that Paul or Manuel Morand won the
1933 or 1934 Paris-Limoges race on a recumbent.

Julien Moineau is listed as the winner of the 1933 Paris-Limoges:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julien_Moineau

The only palmares listing for "Manuel Morand" that I can find shows
him taking 16th place in the 1931 Paris-Tours race--not first, not
1933 or 1934, and not Paris-Limoges:

Course Pos Date Saison
Paris-Tours 16 03/05/1931 1931

http://www.les-sports.info/cyclisme-...o1-w54766.html

"Paul" Morand is probably just a frequently repeated mistake, but I
can't find any palmares for him. Unfortunately, searches will bring up
hundreds of entries for a real French author of the same name.

More and more, I wonder if someone misinterpreted the photos of Morand
leading the Paris-Limoges peloton to mean that he won the race, which
would be at odds with what the recumbent designer himself remembered
when he said that Morand had "no chance to finish first."

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

More negative evidence that the claim for 1st place in Paris-Limoges
by Morand in 1934 is just a mistake:

"5. Paris-Limoges ‘Le Miroir des Sport’ of 21st August 1934 reports on
this 361 km race, in which Morand was joined by another ‘Velocarist’:
There was a high average speed, often matched by the two ‘recliners’,
Morand and Desage, of 30.7 kilometres per hour – more than honourable
for such a long race, ridden on an excessively hot August day. The
race was followed by the sport directors and seems to be regarded as a
major classic race."
http://www.hadland.me.uk/velocar_racing.pdf

No mention of Morand or Desage winning Paris-Limoges, just that they
often matched the high average speed of 30.7 km/h. Maybe someone can
find a copy of Miroir des Sport 21 August 1934?

The PDF has some more tidbits about Morand and his recumbent:

" . . . uphill [in Paris-Angers 1934] he was generally dropped."

***

"On the flat [in Paris-Vicy] at 50 kilometres per hour, the
‘Velocarist’ is really at his ease and behind him the ordinary
cyclists really stuck out their tongues! But uphill, the horizontal
pedaller was not up to the job and soon was lost from sight."

***

"As in earlier events, Manual Morand, riding his bike [in
Paris-Troyes] with the horizontal position, was the big
attraction. He was a terrible animator [a better translation would be
that he "really motivated" the other riders] when the road was good:
only rough surfaces and uphill gradients slowed him down . . ."

***

"Morand snapped a crank at the start [of Paris-Soissons] and had to
stay behind."

***

"Seventy-three competitors assemble at the start [of Paris-Contres].
Straightaway, Morand takes off at high speed and drops everybody. The
bunch is very concerned. At Chateaudun, they catch up with Morand. . .
.. He managed to get to the velodrome with the 11 leading riders,
achieving 8th place."

***

The PDF ends with long and often enigmatic account of a recumbent
"competing" in the mountains--eight speed 4x2 derailleur, dynamo
lighting, 500x55 tires, hub brakes, 20.3 kg:
http://www.hadland.me.uk/velocar_racing.pdf

It wasn't exactly a race--no timing, no official finishing places.

The velocar reached the Aubisque 15 minutes ahead of some riders, but
the account doesn't say how it finished.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Carl Sundquist wrote:

I'll make you a bet then: simultaenous hour record time trials for
unfaired UCI bikes and for fully faired recumbents. During a hurricane.

Well, you chose the conditions so I choose the venue... inside a
well-built velodrome.

It's not really proving anything, coming up with some mix of strange
circumstances where the other side can't operate.

perhaps it's worth me pointing out I'm not saying a recumbent is
better/faster in a universal sense, merely commenting that Ed's
supposition that *no* recumbent is 20% faster on the flats is really not
telling anything like the whole story. Nothing more, nothing less.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Carl Sundquist wrote:

I looked on the IHPVA site before I asked the question. The only
(recognized) hour record that looks to possibly be an unfaired recumbent was
set in 1938 at 31.4 mph. Quite a remarkable time if that was the case. Help
me out here a little bit.

of course, there was the hour record that was the cause of the
retrospective ban of 'bents by the UCI in the first place, which was
unfaired as it would have broken the UCI rule for aerodynamic aids.

It has been widely suggested that the ultimate reason for the ban was it
would have meant a lesser athlete took the hour record from a better
one. In other words, the bike was better suited to the job.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"Jon Bendtsen" wrote in message
...
Tom Sherman wrote:
Tom Kunich wrote:
"Peter Clinch" wrote in message
...

However, if he bothered to look at the UCI hour record and the IHPVA
hour record he'd find a lot more than 20% difference.

If you'd like to get one of the recumbent hour record bikes and race me
on my upright over a course of my choosing you could certainly
demonstrate that 20% difference.

Stop being stupid. The only valid comparison is at equal rider power
outputs. Duh!

What about equal rider weight?

Sigh! Please go to bed and forget about this stupid thread. Tom Sherman is
an idiot and has never known his ass from a hole in the ground. I would feel
sorry for him if he weren't so cantankerous.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

wrote:

George Mount won the California State Cat 1 Road Race on a Moulton.

An Alex, or a Dave?

AMs banned by the UCI, the wheels are too small. Not sure whether that
would carry over to USCF.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

wrote:

On July 7th, 1933, Faure rode an unfaired recumbent 45.055 km (27.9
miles) to set a new hour record, breaking Oscar Egg's upright record.

That sounds good . . .

But Egg's twenty-year-old 1913 record was 44.247 km, so the unfaired
recumbent "smashed" the hour record by raising it less than 1 km/h.

Not bad for someone you've elsewhere described as "a literally
second-class rider" though...

Do you think a second class rider could have taken the record without a
bit of help from the bike?

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/