Lithium Ion vs NiMh battery

On 10/27/2017 7:45 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-10-27 16:19, wrote:
On Friday, October 27, 2017 at 9:35:01 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-10-27 08:37, wrote:
On Friday, October 27, 2017 at 2:10:50 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 25 Oct 2017 09:34:38 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2017 at 6:09:13 PM UTC-7, John B.
wrote:


Which brings up something I've always wondered about. You
go in the store and there is a very nice battery display
rack with all sorts of batteries. One can only speculate
how long they have been on the rack, or in storage before
being displayed on the rack.

Does the store scrap any battery that has been on the rack
for X months? Years? Or just keep them until someone buys
them?

And which brings up another question - how do you know that
your source is any better?

I don't. In fact I don't even worry about the price of a small
battery. It was just something that came to mind the other day
while I was waiting in line at Home Pro. Right there by the
cash register they had a big rack of batteries, must have been
a hundred of them.

I came across a pile of dead batteries that I had saved when I
was trying to be green before I learned that I had to drive five
miles to dispose of these button cells. They were Sony and
something called Renata. I didn't find any of those Panasonic but
the sheet they come on is unmistakable. I remember tearing the
last two out of that sheet to try to use in the transmitter unit
only to discover them dead.


What was the expiration year on those?

Hell if I know. On the non-writing side there is a 72 on one and a 58
on the other. Since they weren't made in those years that sure
couldn't be an expiration date.


It's on the back of the package, a "Use by" date:

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon....L._SL1500_.jpg

What impresses the heck out of me is the HP-11C pocket calculator...

Damn, I still miss mine. Even though I've got an HP48G sitting in front
of me.

The heck of it is, the twerp that stole the 11C doubtlessly never
figured out how to use it.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Friday, October 27, 2017 at 4:45:33 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-10-27 16:19, wrote:
On Friday, October 27, 2017 at 9:35:01 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-10-27 08:37, wrote:
On Friday, October 27, 2017 at 2:10:50 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 25 Oct 2017 09:34:38 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2017 at 6:09:13 PM UTC-7, John B.
wrote:


Which brings up something I've always wondered about. You
go in the store and there is a very nice battery display
rack with all sorts of batteries. One can only speculate
how long they have been on the rack, or in storage before
being displayed on the rack.

Does the store scrap any battery that has been on the rack
for X months? Years? Or just keep them until someone buys
them?

And which brings up another question - how do you know that
your source is any better?

I don't. In fact I don't even worry about the price of a small
battery. It was just something that came to mind the other day
while I was waiting in line at Home Pro. Right there by the
cash register they had a big rack of batteries, must have been
a hundred of them.

I came across a pile of dead batteries that I had saved when I
was trying to be green before I learned that I had to drive five
miles to dispose of these button cells. They were Sony and
something called Renata. I didn't find any of those Panasonic but
the sheet they come on is unmistakable. I remember tearing the
last two out of that sheet to try to use in the transmitter unit
only to discover them dead.


What was the expiration year on those?

Hell if I know. On the non-writing side there is a 72 on one and a 58
on the other. Since they weren't made in those years that sure
couldn't be an expiration date.


It's on the back of the package, a "Use by" date:

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon....L._SL1500_.jpg

What impresses the heck out of me is the HP-11C pocket calculator and
some digital thermometers that use the same sort of battery, type 357.
All those devices are from the 80's and are now on the 2nd set of batteries.

Joerg - you're a hoarder aren't you? What else would ever lead you to think that I would keep the packaging on batteries after installing them?

On Friday, October 27, 2017 at 6:27:05 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/27/2017 7:45 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-10-27 16:19, wrote:
On Friday, October 27, 2017 at 9:35:01 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-10-27 08:37, wrote:
On Friday, October 27, 2017 at 2:10:50 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 25 Oct 2017 09:34:38 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2017 at 6:09:13 PM UTC-7, John B.
wrote:


Which brings up something I've always wondered about. You
go in the store and there is a very nice battery display
rack with all sorts of batteries. One can only speculate
how long they have been on the rack, or in storage before
being displayed on the rack.

Does the store scrap any battery that has been on the rack
for X months? Years? Or just keep them until someone buys
them?

And which brings up another question - how do you know that
your source is any better?

I don't. In fact I don't even worry about the price of a small
battery. It was just something that came to mind the other day
while I was waiting in line at Home Pro. Right there by the
cash register they had a big rack of batteries, must have been
a hundred of them.

I came across a pile of dead batteries that I had saved when I
was trying to be green before I learned that I had to drive five
miles to dispose of these button cells. They were Sony and
something called Renata. I didn't find any of those Panasonic but
the sheet they come on is unmistakable. I remember tearing the
last two out of that sheet to try to use in the transmitter unit
only to discover them dead.


What was the expiration year on those?

Hell if I know. On the non-writing side there is a 72 on one and a 58
on the other. Since they weren't made in those years that sure
couldn't be an expiration date.


It's on the back of the package, a "Use by" date:

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon....L._SL1500_.jpg

What impresses the heck out of me is the HP-11C pocket calculator...

Damn, I still miss mine. Even though I've got an HP48G sitting in front
of me.

The heck of it is, the twerp that stole the 11C doubtlessly never
figured out how to use it.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Calculator and converter: Version 10.1709.2703.0
© 2017 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

On 10/23/2017 9:37 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 23 Oct 2017 08:06:07 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 10/22/2017 8:13 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
I recently bought a few of the lowest priced 18650 on eBay. Garbage
in, lumens out. These were suppose to be 5800 and 5000 ma-hr but
delivered 1000 and 880 ma-hr:
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/battery-tests/18650.jpg
After about 10 charge/discharge cycles, the 5000 ma-hr cell is showing
signs impending failure.

Oh please, did you really expect 5800 mAH from an 18650? There is no
such thing!

Of course not. Notice that I said "bought a few of the lowest priced
18650 on eBay". I wanted to see how the worst possible cells
preformed. These seem to be a fairly reasonable proposition. I
haven't massaged the numbers quite yet, but it seems that a $1 junk
18650 battery, that produces about 1000 ma-hr capacity, has a lower
cost of ownership than a $5 cell 2500 ma-hr from a reputable vendor.
If I buy only junk batteries, I would get twice the capacity for the
same cost, if I'm willing to ride with a bag full of spare batteries.
However, early results from repeated charge/discharge cycles is
showing that the junk cells don't last.

The cheapest way to buy flat top 18650 cells is to buy one of those USB
battery packs. Fry's has a 16,800 mAH model comprised of six 2800mAH
18650 cells for $17. That's $2.83 per cell.

For button-top cells, the source that Barry Beams provided is probably
the best option. I.e. for button-top
https://liionwholesale.com/collections/batteries/products/protected-panasonic-ncr18650b-3400mah-li-ion-18650-button-top-battery?variant=1925834564.

The prices are certainly tolerable, but only if the batteries are not
counterfeit. That's the problem I had buying on eBay. I bought a few
odd high priced cells, that were suppose to be name brand cells, and
ended up with counterfeits. Of course, when I complained, the vendors
refunded my money and claimed they didn't know that they were
counterfeit.

Incidentally, I usually weigh my 18650 cells. For a good battery, I
usually end up with 45 grams/cell. One of the aforementioned
batteries weighted an amazing 72 grams, was advertised as 3500 ma-hr
and measured 800 ma-hr. I couldn't resist opening it up. Inside, I
found what looked like the guts from a 14500 cell and a mixture of
sand and wax to increase the weight.

Another oddity is while 18650 cells are often market with wildly
optimistic ma-hr ratings (much like flashlight lumens), other size
LiIon cells seems to be marked with more realistic ratings. For
example, I bought a pile of SkyWolfEye 14500 (AA size) cells marked
1200 ma-hr. They measure about 1100 ma-hr when tested at the industry
standard 0.2C constant current discharge rate. However, at the 1A
discharge, where I plan to use these cells, the best they could do is
about 450 ma-hr. Still, if you use common 0.2C test method, they
almost meet their advertised spec.

I have a 2 x 18650 powerbank that is rated at 6000mAH (printed on the
case so you know it's true)
https://adreama.com/product/powerbank-xxx-mah-712411984410/, It popped
open so I looked at the batteries inside, 2200mAH each. Allowing for the
typical mAH inflation of no-name batteries, I suspect that the actual
capacity is about 3200mAH

On Monday, October 30, 2017 at 8:20:32 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 10/23/2017 9:37 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 23 Oct 2017 08:06:07 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 10/22/2017 8:13 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
I recently bought a few of the lowest priced 18650 on eBay. Garbage
in, lumens out. These were suppose to be 5800 and 5000 ma-hr but
delivered 1000 and 880 ma-hr:
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/battery-tests/18650.jpg
After about 10 charge/discharge cycles, the 5000 ma-hr cell is showing
signs impending failure.

Oh please, did you really expect 5800 mAH from an 18650? There is no
such thing!

Of course not. Notice that I said "bought a few of the lowest priced
18650 on eBay". I wanted to see how the worst possible cells
preformed. These seem to be a fairly reasonable proposition. I
haven't massaged the numbers quite yet, but it seems that a $1 junk
18650 battery, that produces about 1000 ma-hr capacity, has a lower
cost of ownership than a $5 cell 2500 ma-hr from a reputable vendor.
If I buy only junk batteries, I would get twice the capacity for the
same cost, if I'm willing to ride with a bag full of spare batteries.
However, early results from repeated charge/discharge cycles is
showing that the junk cells don't last.

The cheapest way to buy flat top 18650 cells is to buy one of those USB
battery packs. Fry's has a 16,800 mAH model comprised of six 2800mAH
18650 cells for $17. That's $2.83 per cell.

For button-top cells, the source that Barry Beams provided is probably
the best option. I.e. for button-top
https://liionwholesale.com/collections/batteries/products/protected-panasonic-ncr18650b-3400mah-li-ion-18650-button-top-battery?variant=1925834564.

The prices are certainly tolerable, but only if the batteries are not
counterfeit. That's the problem I had buying on eBay. I bought a few
odd high priced cells, that were suppose to be name brand cells, and
ended up with counterfeits. Of course, when I complained, the vendors
refunded my money and claimed they didn't know that they were
counterfeit.

Incidentally, I usually weigh my 18650 cells. For a good battery, I
usually end up with 45 grams/cell. One of the aforementioned
batteries weighted an amazing 72 grams, was advertised as 3500 ma-hr
and measured 800 ma-hr. I couldn't resist opening it up. Inside, I
found what looked like the guts from a 14500 cell and a mixture of
sand and wax to increase the weight.

Another oddity is while 18650 cells are often market with wildly
optimistic ma-hr ratings (much like flashlight lumens), other size
LiIon cells seems to be marked with more realistic ratings. For
example, I bought a pile of SkyWolfEye 14500 (AA size) cells marked
1200 ma-hr. They measure about 1100 ma-hr when tested at the industry
standard 0.2C constant current discharge rate. However, at the 1A
discharge, where I plan to use these cells, the best they could do is
about 450 ma-hr. Still, if you use common 0.2C test method, they
almost meet their advertised spec.

I have a 2 x 18650 powerbank that is rated at 6000mAH (printed on the
case so you know it's true)
https://adreama.com/product/powerbank-xxx-mah-712411984410/, It popped
open so I looked at the batteries inside, 2200mAH each. Allowing for the
typical mAH inflation of no-name batteries, I suspect that the actual
capacity is about 3200mAH

I have a Li-ion 1500 mAh for my camera and a spare. They don't hold charges very long so I usually charge them up before serious use.

On 2017-10-29 13:49, wrote:
On Friday, October 27, 2017 at 4:45:33 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-10-27 16:19, wrote:
On Friday, October 27, 2017 at 9:35:01 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-10-27 08:37, wrote:
On Friday, October 27, 2017 at 2:10:50 AM UTC-7, John B.
wrote:
On Wed, 25 Oct 2017 09:34:38 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2017 at 6:09:13 PM UTC-7, John
B. wrote:


Which brings up something I've always wondered about.
You go in the store and there is a very nice battery
display rack with all sorts of batteries. One can only
speculate how long they have been on the rack, or in
storage before being displayed on the rack.

Does the store scrap any battery that has been on the
rack for X months? Years? Or just keep them until
someone buys them?

And which brings up another question - how do you know
that your source is any better?

I don't. In fact I don't even worry about the price of a
small battery. It was just something that came to mind the
other day while I was waiting in line at Home Pro. Right
there by the cash register they had a big rack of
batteries, must have been a hundred of them.

I came across a pile of dead batteries that I had saved when
I was trying to be green before I learned that I had to drive
five miles to dispose of these button cells. They were Sony
and something called Renata. I didn't find any of those
Panasonic but the sheet they come on is unmistakable. I
remember tearing the last two out of that sheet to try to use
in the transmitter unit only to discover them dead.


What was the expiration year on those?

Hell if I know. On the non-writing side there is a 72 on one and
a 58 on the other. Since they weren't made in those years that
sure couldn't be an expiration date.


It's on the back of the package, a "Use by" date:

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon....L._SL1500_.jpg



What impresses the heck out of me is the HP-11C pocket calculator and
some digital thermometers that use the same sort of battery, type
357. All those devices are from the 80's and are now on the 2nd set
of batteries.

Joerg - you're a hoarder aren't you? What else would ever lead you to
think that I would keep the packaging on batteries after installing
them?


I have a battery drawer and this contains various types of batteries in
cartons, blister packs and whatnot. Those have the date codes and "use
by" years. If a battery gets installed in a device where many years of
life are expected I write that on a snippet of adhesive-backed paper and
stick it on the back of the device. This also (mostly) prevents the
dreaded situation where a battery that still has enough juice has
started leaking.

Other stuff is on a checklist. Smoke alarms, CO sensors, remotes, gear
where batteries can leak, and so on. I am a strong believer in
checklists. Even got one for my beer brewing.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2017-10-27 18:27, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/27/2017 7:45 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-10-27 16:19, wrote:
On Friday, October 27, 2017 at 9:35:01 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-10-27 08:37, wrote:
On Friday, October 27, 2017 at 2:10:50 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 25 Oct 2017 09:34:38 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2017 at 6:09:13 PM UTC-7, John B.
wrote:


Which brings up something I've always wondered about. You
go in the store and there is a very nice battery display
rack with all sorts of batteries. One can only speculate
how long they have been on the rack, or in storage before
being displayed on the rack.

Does the store scrap any battery that has been on the rack
for X months? Years? Or just keep them until someone buys
them?

And which brings up another question - how do you know that
your source is any better?

I don't. In fact I don't even worry about the price of a small
battery. It was just something that came to mind the other day
while I was waiting in line at Home Pro. Right there by the
cash register they had a big rack of batteries, must have been
a hundred of them.

I came across a pile of dead batteries that I had saved when I
was trying to be green before I learned that I had to drive five
miles to dispose of these button cells. They were Sony and
something called Renata. I didn't find any of those Panasonic but
the sheet they come on is unmistakable. I remember tearing the
last two out of that sheet to try to use in the transmitter unit
only to discover them dead.


What was the expiration year on those?

Hell if I know. On the non-writing side there is a 72 on one and a 58
on the other. Since they weren't made in those years that sure
couldn't be an expiration date.


It's on the back of the package, a "Use by" date:

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon....L._SL1500_.jpg

What impresses the heck out of me is the HP-11C pocket calculator...

Damn, I still miss mine. Even though I've got an HP48G sitting in front
of me.

The heck of it is, the twerp that stole the 11C doubtlessly never
figured out how to use it.


Not all hope is lost:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hewlett-Pac...g/152756750101

If in a rush the "buy it now" deals go for $80-$120. There used to be an
anniversary edition but only for the HP-12C which is the financial
version. Use engineers need the 1e-3 notation and all that.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Mon, 30 Oct 2017 08:20:29 -0700, sms
wrote:

I have a 2 x 18650 powerbank that is rated at 6000mAH (printed on the
case so you know it's true)
https://adreama.com/product/powerbank-xxx-mah-712411984410/

That would be 3000ma-hr rated capacity per cell. That's not going to
happen. See below.

It popped open

I translate that to mean it fell apart.

so I looked at the batteries inside, 2200mAH each. Allowing for the
typical mAH inflation of no-name batteries, I suspect that the actual
capacity is about 3200mAH

I agree with your estimate. Most of the generic cell's I've tested
end up around 1600 ma-hr (or 3200 ma-hr for your "powerbank").

To the best of my limited knowledge, the largest capacity 18650 cell
is the Panasonic NCR18650G at 3400 ma-hr
https://na.industrial.panasonic.com/sites/default/pidsa/files/ncr18650b.pdf
or maybe the LG MJ1 at 3500 ma-hr:
https://www.nkon.nl/sk/k/Specification%20INR18650MJ1%2022.08.2014.pdf

The problem is that batteries are tested at a discharge current of
0.2C. For the LG MJ1, that would be:
0.2 * 3500 = 700 ma
That's actually fairly close to the current drain of most 2 LED
headlights. Assuming about 75 lumens/watt:
3.6V * 0.7A * 75 lumens/watt = 189 lumens

If you look at the bottom end of the 18650 market, the cells seems to
test at about 1200 ma-hr. The 0.2C discharge test would be done at:
0.2 * 1200 = 240 ma
If you take the same headlight as the LG MJ1 test, it would be testing
a mythical headlight producing only:
3.6v * 0.24A * 75 lumens/watt = 65 lumens
That's not counting the decrease in capacity at higher currents for
this 18650 cell.

This all would be easy if different size batteries were tested at some
standard discharge current, so that it would be possible to better
compare cells, but's that's not going to happen.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 10/30/2017 7:11 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-10-27 18:27, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/27/2017 7:45 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-10-27 16:19, wrote:
On Friday, October 27, 2017 at 9:35:01 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-10-27 08:37, wrote:
On Friday, October 27, 2017 at 2:10:50 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 25 Oct 2017 09:34:38 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2017 at 6:09:13 PM UTC-7, John B.
wrote:


Which brings up something I've always wondered about. You
go in the store and there is a very nice battery display
rack with all sorts of batteries. One can only speculate
how long they have been on the rack, or in storage before
being displayed on the rack.

Does the store scrap any battery that has been on the rack
for X months? Years? Or just keep them until someone buys
them?

And which brings up another question - how do you know that
your source is any better?

I don't. In fact I don't even worry about the price of a small
battery. It was just something that came to mind the other day
while I was waiting in line at Home Pro. Right there by the
cash register they had a big rack of batteries, must have been
a hundred of them.

I came across a pile of dead batteries that I had saved when I
was trying to be green before I learned that I had to drive five
miles to dispose of these button cells. They were Sony and
something called Renata. I didn't find any of those Panasonic but
the sheet they come on is unmistakable. I remember tearing the
last two out of that sheet to try to use in the transmitter unit
only to discover them dead.


What was the expiration year on those?

Hell if I know. On the non-writing side there is a 72 on one and a 58
on the other. Since they weren't made in those years that sure
couldn't be an expiration date.


It's on the back of the package, a "Use by" date:

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon....L._SL1500_.jpg


What impresses the heck out of me is the HP-11C pocket calculator...

Damn, I still miss mine. Even though I've got an HP48G sitting in front
of me.

The heck of it is, the twerp that stole the 11C doubtlessly never
figured out how to use it.


Not all hope is lost:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hewlett-Pac...g/152756750101

I know they pop up there. I don't bid because the company I was working
for at the time bought me a replacement, an HP32S-II. That now lives in
my workshop. And as I said, I've also got the HP48G. Since I'm retired,
it would be silly to buy another 11C. Even though it really was my favorite.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Mon, 30 Oct 2017 23:31:18 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 10/30/2017 7:11 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-10-27 18:27, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/27/2017 7:45 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-10-27 16:19, wrote:
On Friday, October 27, 2017 at 9:35:01 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-10-27 08:37, wrote:
On Friday, October 27, 2017 at 2:10:50 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 25 Oct 2017 09:34:38 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2017 at 6:09:13 PM UTC-7, John B.
wrote:


Which brings up something I've always wondered about. You
go in the store and there is a very nice battery display
rack with all sorts of batteries. One can only speculate
how long they have been on the rack, or in storage before
being displayed on the rack.

Does the store scrap any battery that has been on the rack
for X months? Years? Or just keep them until someone buys
them?

And which brings up another question - how do you know that
your source is any better?

I don't. In fact I don't even worry about the price of a small
battery. It was just something that came to mind the other day
while I was waiting in line at Home Pro. Right there by the
cash register they had a big rack of batteries, must have been
a hundred of them.

I came across a pile of dead batteries that I had saved when I
was trying to be green before I learned that I had to drive five
miles to dispose of these button cells. They were Sony and
something called Renata. I didn't find any of those Panasonic but
the sheet they come on is unmistakable. I remember tearing the
last two out of that sheet to try to use in the transmitter unit
only to discover them dead.


What was the expiration year on those?

Hell if I know. On the non-writing side there is a 72 on one and a 58
on the other. Since they weren't made in those years that sure
couldn't be an expiration date.


It's on the back of the package, a "Use by" date:

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon....L._SL1500_.jpg


What impresses the heck out of me is the HP-11C pocket calculator...

Damn, I still miss mine. Even though I've got an HP48G sitting in front
of me.

The heck of it is, the twerp that stole the 11C doubtlessly never
figured out how to use it.


Not all hope is lost:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hewlett-Pac...g/152756750101

I know they pop up there. I don't bid because the company I was working
for at the time bought me a replacement, an HP32S-II. That now lives in
my workshop. And as I said, I've also got the HP48G. Since I'm retired,
it would be silly to buy another 11C. Even though it really was my favorite.

A friend at work had one of those H.P. calculators and I found the
reverse polish notation to almost impossible to work with. An
eccentricity perhaps but " 3 4 5 × - " just didn't seem logical :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.