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  #41  
Old June 27th 16, 09:10 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
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On Monday, June 27, 2016 at 12:45:20 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-27 10:43, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, June 27, 2016 at 10:13:53 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-26 12:48, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/26/2016 10:02 AM, Joerg wrote:

Well, yeah, downhill we are mostly king of the road and can
match the speed of motor vehicles or exceed them. Otherwise it
can end like this, and this kind of rear-ender accident is in
the news regularly here where yet another cyclist died, on
Friday:

http://www.kcra.com/news/local-news/...crash/40206840




Again, you say that's in the news "regularly here." Can we get a list,
or at least a count, to show how "regular" that is? Is it once a
week? Or does "regular" mean once a month?


About every other month.


Given that there are only 730 or so bike fatalities in the entire
U.S. every year, I'd be surprised if your little town gets one
per year. If you expand the area of your "here" to include a
couple hundred square miles, you might be able to get an average
of two fatalities per year. That's far from "regular."


AFAIR we had at least three this year with deadly consequence.
Brandi Weaver died on El Camino in Aril and there was one before
her. From what was released it seems she properly moved into the
left lane (four-lane street, no bike lane) to turn left and was
rear-ended by a pickup truck. They caught the woman who fled the
scene. Also, not all such accidents end in death, some end in
someone being crippled.


So now Sacramento is in Cameron Park?



I do venture out a wee bit farther than five miles on my bicycles. That
includes the Sacramento Valley.


... What does a women getting
run-down by a drunk driver tell us about conspicuity and the value of
lights -- particularly powerful headlights? We have drunk drivers
running into conspicuous police cars.
http://www.personalinjury.com/news/p...suing-city-bar
And houses and pedestrians and basically everything.


It's rare. Unfortunately we will likely never know because there is
almost never any true follow-up in the press on such terrible accidents.
As I've said many times my clear experience since bright DRL is that
drivers coming from behind begin to slow down much earlier than they
used to. That can easily be heard (except on Teslas and other electric
vehicles). They also tend to give me wider space when passing.



I may be going out on a limb here -- but a forward-pointing headlight during daylight hours probably would not have prevented a drunk driver from REAR ENDING a bicyclist. Again, just a guess.

So, is your DRL so bright that it casts a halo around you? Mine is not so bright and cannot be seen from the rear in daylight.

I have noticed that when I wear my stars-and-stripes socks, cars slow down and give me more room, particularly in the Republican parts of town. I used to ride for a Saturn sponsored team, and when I wear my Saturn jersey, cars pass more closely, believing I am old, sponsored by a defunct car company and probably ready to die. I get passed closely by the Bohemians when I wear my Assos shorts because they think I'm part of the 1%. I've now wear a sign on my butt:"these shorts were given to me by my brother. I can't afford them on my paltry salary. Can you spare a dime?" If that doesn't work, I'm going to grow a neck beard and ride a fixed gear.

-- Jay Beattie.






-- Jay Beattie.




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  #42  
Old June 27th 16, 09:27 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Michael[_10_]
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Posts: 126
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On Friday, June 24, 2016 at 9:47:17 AM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-23 19:56, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 24 Jun 2016 08:47:30 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Thu, 23 Jun 2016 18:12:59 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 6/23/2016 5:40 PM, John B. wrote:

snip

And there is rear light it probably makes them even safer. "Safer than
safe" as it were.

Well I would not judge the visibility of lights in the daytime based on
what Trek sells under their Bontrager brand name since their lights
aren't great.

I am seeing more DRLs than ever on bicycles around here. Since the rain
has ended more people are riding to work again. I doubt you can even buy
a battery powered light in any store that doesn't have a flashing DRL
unless you can find a store selling German li.

I've only ever seen one study on the on the benefits of DRLs and it
showed a significant benefit. Since there is no real down side, it makes
sense to use them. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22884376.




Strange isn't it that the NHTSA report of September 2008 titled "The
Effectiveness of Daytime Running Lights For Passenger Vehicles"

Under the sub-title
"Single-Passenger-Vehicle-to-Pedestrian/Pedalcyclist Crashes"
(Single-PV-to-PED/CYC)

States that:

None of the results were statistically significant at the 0.05 level.

Although not statistically significant, DRLs in cars were more likely
to reduce daytime Single-PC-to-PED/CYC fatal and injury crashes.

In contrast,
DRLs in LTVs seemed to have an unintended consequence against
single-LTV crashes involving pedestrians and pedalcyclists. The large
negative effects, although not statistically significant, cannot be
totally ignored.

For PCs and LTVs combined, DRLs seemed to have no effect on
Single-PV-to-PED/CYC fatal crashes.

However, DRLs seemed to have a negative impact on single-
vehicle injury and all crashes involving pedestrians and
pedalcyclists.


Additional Studies:

The Minnesota Department of Transportation report
Published November 2010

Effects of 24-Hour Headlight Use on Traffic Safety

Effect on Crashes Involving Pedestrians and Bicyclists

DRLs have the potential to effect pedestrian and bicyclist safety in
at least two ways. It is possible that pedestrians
and bicyclists would become relatively less visible when motor
vehicles have their headlights on.


Hence one shall also have lights on as a cyclist. I always do when on
roads. It has substantially reduced the number of intrusions into my
path where I had to brake hard. People pulling out of gas stations, side
roads, parking lots, doing left turns or right turns in front of me, and
so on. IOW it works. When others diss daytime lights I simply do not care.

Neighbors have told me that my bikes really stand out when they see me
on the road. The front light on the MTB doesn't even have a flash mode,
doesn't need it because it is similar to a motorcycle light in
conspicuousness.

[...]

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


Planet Bike Superflash here. I don't know if it does any good or not, but if there's even a minute chance it catches the attention of the 17 year old driving and texting on a country two-lane, I'll take that.

Mike
  #43  
Old June 27th 16, 09:46 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
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Posts: 5,270
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On Monday, June 27, 2016 at 4:27:37 PM UTC-4, Michael wrote:
On Friday, June 24, 2016 at 9:47:17 AM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-23 19:56, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 24 Jun 2016 08:47:30 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Thu, 23 Jun 2016 18:12:59 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 6/23/2016 5:40 PM, John B. wrote:

snip

And there is rear light it probably makes them even safer. "Safer than
safe" as it were.

Well I would not judge the visibility of lights in the daytime based on
what Trek sells under their Bontrager brand name since their lights
aren't great.

I am seeing more DRLs than ever on bicycles around here. Since the rain
has ended more people are riding to work again. I doubt you can even buy
a battery powered light in any store that doesn't have a flashing DRL
unless you can find a store selling German li.

I've only ever seen one study on the on the benefits of DRLs and it
showed a significant benefit. Since there is no real down side, it makes
sense to use them. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22884376.




Strange isn't it that the NHTSA report of September 2008 titled "The
Effectiveness of Daytime Running Lights For Passenger Vehicles"

Under the sub-title
"Single-Passenger-Vehicle-to-Pedestrian/Pedalcyclist Crashes"
(Single-PV-to-PED/CYC)

States that:

None of the results were statistically significant at the 0.05 level.

Although not statistically significant, DRLs in cars were more likely
to reduce daytime Single-PC-to-PED/CYC fatal and injury crashes.

In contrast,
DRLs in LTVs seemed to have an unintended consequence against
single-LTV crashes involving pedestrians and pedalcyclists. The large
negative effects, although not statistically significant, cannot be
totally ignored.

For PCs and LTVs combined, DRLs seemed to have no effect on
Single-PV-to-PED/CYC fatal crashes.

However, DRLs seemed to have a negative impact on single-
vehicle injury and all crashes involving pedestrians and
pedalcyclists.

Additional Studies:

The Minnesota Department of Transportation report
Published November 2010

Effects of 24-Hour Headlight Use on Traffic Safety

Effect on Crashes Involving Pedestrians and Bicyclists

DRLs have the potential to effect pedestrian and bicyclist safety in
at least two ways. It is possible that pedestrians
and bicyclists would become relatively less visible when motor
vehicles have their headlights on.


Hence one shall also have lights on as a cyclist. I always do when on
roads. It has substantially reduced the number of intrusions into my
path where I had to brake hard. People pulling out of gas stations, side
roads, parking lots, doing left turns or right turns in front of me, and
so on. IOW it works. When others diss daytime lights I simply do not care.

Neighbors have told me that my bikes really stand out when they see me
on the road. The front light on the MTB doesn't even have a flash mode,
doesn't need it because it is similar to a motorcycle light in
conspicuousness.

[...]

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


Planet Bike Superflash here. I don't know if it does any good or not, but if there's even a minute chance it catches the attention of the 17 year old driving and texting on a country two-lane, I'll take that.

Mike


I've had the odd idiot not see my very bright CygoLite Rover II on high at NIGHT let alone in the daytime. A flashing DRL might be a help in the daytime but only if the day is overcast or natural light is similarly impeded.

Cheers
  #44  
Old June 27th 16, 10:24 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
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On 6/27/2016 1:13 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-26 12:48, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/26/2016 10:02 AM, Joerg wrote:

Well, yeah, downhill we are mostly king of the road and can match the
speed of motor vehicles or exceed them. Otherwise it can end like this,
and this kind of rear-ender accident is in the news regularly here where
yet another cyclist died, on Friday:

http://www.kcra.com/news/local-news/...crash/40206840



Again, you say that's in the news "regularly here." Can we get a list,
or at least a count, to show how "regular" that is? Is it once a week?
Or does "regular" mean once a month?


About every other month.


That's not a list nor a real count. How about some documentation,
Joerg? You're making extraordinary claims. You should provide at
_least_ ordinary evidence.



Given that there are only 730 or so bike fatalities in the entire U.S.
every year, I'd be surprised if your little town gets one per year. If
you expand the area of your "here" to include a couple hundred square
miles, you might be able to get an average of two fatalities per year.
That's far from "regular."


AFAIR we had at least three this year with deadly consequence. Brandi
Weaver died on El Camino in Aril and there was one before her.


Your "at least three" seems to have devolved to one.

Oh, and what area are you including in "around here"? California?


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #45  
Old June 27th 16, 10:33 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
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On 6/27/2016 4:27 PM, Michael wrote:


Planet Bike Superflash here. I don't know if it does any good or not, but if there's even a minute chance it catches the attention of the 17 year old driving and texting on a country two-lane, I'll take that.


sigh And a certified-for-14-mph helmet _might_ help if a car hits at
35 mph head on; and a bright jersey _might_ catch the attention of a
motorist 50 feet earlier; and a six-foot vertical flag _might_ give
early warning after cresting a hill; and a three-foot horizontal flat
_might_ yield a little more passing clearance; and a a loud air horn
_might_ give enough warning if someone does pull out in front of you;
and a St. Christopher's Medal _might_ make him clear your path as you're
riding.

Sheesh! Doesn't anyone just ride a bike any more?

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #46  
Old June 27th 16, 10:47 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
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Posts: 5,270
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On Monday, June 27, 2016 at 5:33:24 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/27/2016 4:27 PM, Michael wrote:


Planet Bike Superflash here. I don't know if it does any good or not, but if there's even a minute chance it catches the attention of the 17 year old driving and texting on a country two-lane, I'll take that.


sigh And a certified-for-14-mph helmet _might_ help if a car hits at
35 mph head on; and a bright jersey _might_ catch the attention of a
motorist 50 feet earlier; and a six-foot vertical flag _might_ give
early warning after cresting a hill; and a three-foot horizontal flat
_might_ yield a little more passing clearance; and a a loud air horn
_might_ give enough warning if someone does pull out in front of you;
and a St. Christopher's Medal _might_ make him clear your path as you're
riding.

Sheesh! Doesn't anyone just ride a bike any more?

--
- Frank Krygowski


Whilst a passenger in a car with a non-bicycling driver I've often pointed out a bicyclist ahead and sometimes that bicyclist on the opposite side of the two lane road we were travelling on. In many cases the driver looking for the bicyclist couldn't see them because the clothing blended in with the surroundings. This got me to wondering just what non-bicycling drivers see in reltion to bicyclists who drive and know what to look for. Add in all the distractions drivers have now and I can see where some people want other safety items. Me, I like a good rear view mirror so i can keep track of the dirvers coming up from behind. The drivers in front are easy enough to see.

It's quite the thing to see an 18-wheeler behind you growing quite large in your rear view mirror, realize that the truck isn't slowing down and that the driver is either distracted or suffering a medical emergency or the truck has lost it's brakes. At least with the mirror you have time to do something about it.

The other piece of saftey equipment I'd put on my bicycly is a very loud horn like a mini boat horn so I could blast at those drivers approaching and drifting into my lane as they fiddle with something in their vehicle or are yacking on their phone. A loud horn is also good for the earbud crowd who are about to step off a sidewalk and do so directly in front of you or those stealth bicycl at night who ride the sidewalk and then suddenly decide to cut across the road directly in front of you.

Seems to me that bicycles are the only vehicles on the road that are not mandated to have a mirror as well as a bell/horn.

Cheers
  #47  
Old June 27th 16, 10:48 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
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Posts: 6,016
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On 2016-06-27 13:10, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, June 27, 2016 at 12:45:20 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-27 10:43, jbeattie wrote:


[...]



... What does a women getting run-down by a drunk driver tell us
about conspicuity and the value of lights -- particularly
powerful headlights? We have drunk drivers running into
conspicuous police cars.
http://www.personalinjury.com/news/p...suing-city-bar


And houses and pedestrians and basically everything.


It's rare. Unfortunately we will likely never know because there
is almost never any true follow-up in the press on such terrible
accidents. As I've said many times my clear experience since bright
DRL is that drivers coming from behind begin to slow down much
earlier than they used to. That can easily be heard (except on
Teslas and other electric vehicles). They also tend to give me
wider space when passing.



I may be going out on a limb here -- but a forward-pointing headlight
during daylight hours probably would not have prevented a drunk
driver from REAR ENDING a bicyclist. Again, just a guess.

So, is your DRL so bright that it casts a halo around you? Mine is
not so bright and cannot be seen from the rear in daylight.


Hint: A properly equipped bike has DRL in front _and_ in back. Mine are
very visible. I know people who only have a rear light but having a
front light and no rear light would be quite stupid.


I have noticed that when I wear my stars-and-stripes socks, cars slow
down and give me more room, particularly in the Republican parts of
town. I used to ride for a Saturn sponsored team, and when I wear my
Saturn jersey, cars pass more closely, believing I am old, sponsored
by a defunct car company and probably ready to die. I get passed
closely by the Bohemians when I wear my Assos shorts because they
think I'm part of the 1%. I've now wear a sign on my butt:"these
shorts were given to me by my brother. I can't afford them on my
paltry salary. Can you spare a dime?" If that doesn't work, I'm
going to grow a neck beard and ride a fixed gear.


For proper ambience add a black plastic bag with empty beer cans
clattering around in it :-)

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #48  
Old June 27th 16, 10:55 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
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Posts: 6,016
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On 2016-06-27 14:24, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/27/2016 1:13 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-26 12:48, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/26/2016 10:02 AM, Joerg wrote:

Well, yeah, downhill we are mostly king of the road and can match the
speed of motor vehicles or exceed them. Otherwise it can end like this,
and this kind of rear-ender accident is in the news regularly here
where
yet another cyclist died, on Friday:

http://www.kcra.com/news/local-news/...crash/40206840




Again, you say that's in the news "regularly here." Can we get a list,
or at least a count, to show how "regular" that is? Is it once a week?
Or does "regular" mean once a month?


About every other month.


That's not a list nor a real count. How about some documentation,
Joerg? You're making extraordinary claims. You should provide at
_least_ ordinary evidence.


Baloney. I do not have a GoPro and do not plan to spedn the money for
one. If you don't blieve me that's fine, I do not care.


Given that there are only 730 or so bike fatalities in the entire U.S.
every year, I'd be surprised if your little town gets one per year. If
you expand the area of your "here" to include a couple hundred square
miles, you might be able to get an average of two fatalities per year.
That's far from "regular."


AFAIR we had at least three this year with deadly consequence. Brandi
Weaver died on El Camino in Aril and there was one before her.


Your "at least three" seems to have devolved to one.


Your memory is this short? I just mentioned the one from last week.
Brandi Weaver was the one before that, in April. Since you always want
proof, here it is, I looked up the 3rd accident this year where a
bicyclist was killed:

http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/cri...e59374551.html


Oh, and what area are you including in "around here"? California?


My typical riding area, meaning The Sacramento Valley and then up to
Placerville.

If you only count the stretch from your garage to the next street corner
you will feel ok with the head in the sand because then there are never
accidents.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #49  
Old June 27th 16, 10:56 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
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Posts: 5,270
Default visibility

On Monday, June 27, 2016 at 5:48:23 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:


Hint: A properly equipped bike has DRL in front _and_ in back. Mine are
very visible. I know people who only have a rear light but having a
front light and no rear light would be quite stupid.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


millions of bicyclists throughout the world don't need or use DRLs.

Chers
  #50  
Old June 27th 16, 11:05 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default visibility

On 2016-06-27 14:56, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, June 27, 2016 at 5:48:23 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:


Hint: A properly equipped bike has DRL in front _and_ in back. Mine are
very visible. I know people who only have a rear light but having a
front light and no rear light would be quite stupid.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


millions of bicyclists throughout the world don't need or use DRLs.


Millions of people in grandpa's days did not have safety belts in their
cars.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
 




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