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#71
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Chinese Carbon Wheelset
On 8/26/2019 7:46 PM, Duane wrote:
You don’t create markets by convincing consumers to need what you want to sell. Don’t you think it’s possible the suppliers are responding to the market demand? That's extremely naive. Look at SUVs and pickup trucks as an example. Our area just took a massive economic hit because GM closed the Lordstown plant where the well-regarded Chevy Cruze was built. Their explanation? Cruze sales were dropping, SUVs were rising. But a local investigative reporter dug into the decision. It turns out it was made back when Cruze sales were at their peak and rising. GM turned down all advertising for the Cruze and turned up all advertising for SUVs, specifically because profit per unit is much higher for SUVs. And by golly, people bought more and more SUVs and fewer Cruzes. It's naive to think advertising and promotion don't work. If advertising didn't change market demand, advertising wouldn't be the massive, massive effort it is. -- - Frank Krygowski |
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#72
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Chinese Carbon Wheelset
On 8/26/2019 6:00 PM, Duane wrote:
jbeattie wrote: I love my Emonda. It goes to 11, and as I was riding over hill and dale this weekend, I used every gear. Compared to my commuter pig, it's like an eBike. I should have gotten discs! Actually, the direct mount dual pivots stop really well, but there is the issue of rim wear. I don’t know about using every gear but I definitely appreciate my 11 speed. I’m loving the mid compact too. Rollers are my favorite and this setup works well. People do love mid compacts these days. Before that, they loved standard compacts. And before that, they loved 52-42. They once loved half-steps, too, and I forget what other schemes I may be leaving out. The one consistent fact is, whatever is being advertised right now is the bees knees! -- - Frank Krygowski |
#73
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Chinese Carbon Wheelset
On Monday, 26 August 2019 20:49:10 UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/26/2019 6:10 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Monday, 26 August 2019 18:46:12 UTC-4, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Mon, 26 Aug 2019 12:25:23 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/25/2019 7:54 PM, jbeattie wrote: I went to meet my neighbor for a ride, and he says, hey, could you try riding my bike, it just isn't shifting well. So I got on his bike (which is way too small), and it had an odd shifting issue that didn't quite feel like new chain/cassette issues. It was subtle and more like a loose freehub body. So I tell him that, and he goes, O.K., let me check. He pops off the cassettes, checks the body, which isn't loose, but the cones on his Campy hub/wheel are a little loose, so he pulls out his cone wrenches, adjusts the hub, throws the cassettes back on and pops the wheel back in his Pinarello. Shifts like a charm. Took 8 minutes. Yes, some people are good bike mechanics. Most people are not. This will always be the case. Different people know different things, which is OK. But I think it's a bad idea to push actually fragile equipment to people who need rugged reliability a lot more than tiny improvements in speed. Grrrrrr. Rugged reliability! You know, I've never seen anyone force a super-light bike on someone, and I've been to a lot of bike shops. My son sold bikes and let people make stupid purchases, but they were usually double suspended fat bikes and other odd-ball bikes. He worked in Specialized and Trek shops, and I don't recall one instance of him forcing an S-Works Tarmac on some unsuspecting old lady or a Madone. I'm not accusing (most) bike shop people of pushing Madones on old ladies... even though I had a friend who decided to get into biking at about age 65, and was sold a similar bike. I suspect the guy's (much younger) cyclist girl friend was responsible for the bad choice, but the shop certainly abetted the decision. (The guy gave up riding after a few months.) But I think the industry does tend to promote unneeded sophistication and, in some cases, fragility. It's parallel to the auto industry pushing SUVs - each unit is much more profitable. It's not just carbon fiber. How about gearing? Only a microscopic percentage of cyclists get any benefit out of more than 8 rear cogs. Everyone with 9, and especially 10 or 11, pay for more expensive parts that are less failure tolerant and wear quicker. How about all the bottom bracket standards we've (or rather, you've) gone through? Each one intended to be lighter and stiffer - and weirder. Some consumers are now left up the creek without a crank. We've been around and around about road discs. Yes, they make sense for your rainy commutes, but they really don't make sense for most riders.. But hey, they are "in"! Why buy a bike with rim brakes? Just because they work as well for almost everyone, are easier to adjust, easier to repair, cost less and are less fashionable? Wheels: Ever fewer spokes, of ever weirder designs, in ever lighter wheels. Do you remember days when spoke nipples didn't crack rims? I do remember, partly because I'm still using wheels like that. I remember when all my friends rode aluminum or steel frames, 5 or 6 or 7 rear cogs, square taper bottom brackets, etc. We're older now, but we and even the younger riders are no faster and ride no further now than in those days. I think the major problem is that "what's best" is still being defined as "what racers use." I think most bike makers still promote that mindset. I think it's a disservice to most bicyclists. But! It sells bicycles! (and without sales there would be no bicycle shops :-) -- Cheers, John B. Ah, but a lot of bicyclists want a bicycle that resembles a racing bicycle. Even in MTBs the tendency is towards racing bikes. Look at how the chainstays have become shorter on MTBs over the years since the early 1980s. Here's a small image of my 1980's Bianchi MTB. Look carefully and you can see the water bottle and cage mounted BEHIND the seattube. Cheers uh, usenet is text... -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 OOPS! Forgot the link to the image - again. https://flic.kr/p/daMLtr Cheers |
#74
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Chinese Carbon Wheelset
On Monday, August 26, 2019 at 7:47:01 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/26/2019 6:00 PM, Duane wrote: jbeattie wrote: I love my Emonda. It goes to 11, and as I was riding over hill and dale this weekend, I used every gear. Compared to my commuter pig, it's like an eBike. I should have gotten discs! Actually, the direct mount dual pivots stop really well, but there is the issue of rim wear. I don’t know about using every gear but I definitely appreciate my 11 speed. I’m loving the mid compact too. Rollers are my favorite and this setup works well. People do love mid compacts these days. Before that, they loved standard compacts. And before that, they loved 52-42. They once loved half-steps, too, and I forget what other schemes I may be leaving out. The one consistent fact is, whatever is being advertised right now is the bees knees! It's bizarre that you're criticizing a market trend that promotes wide gear ranges. What, to you, is a legitimate transmission? 42/52 13-21? Are you criticizing spinning? I don't get it with all your complaining about racing bikes with narrow gear ranges being foisted on the unwary consumer. -- Jay Beattie. |
#75
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Chinese Carbon Wheelset
On 27/8/19 12:33 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/26/2019 4:19 PM, AMuzi wrote: You often deride 'fashion', not recognizing that your own fashion is a decided subset of cycling overall. Well, in a sense, you're right: I certainly don't recognize my bike equipment choices as "fashion." A '72 steel frame bike with racks and bags and dyno lighting? An old touring bike with big bags front and back? A folding bike? An ancient tandem? My club members joke about how unfashionable I am! "Steel is real" is a fashion statement. Old steel road bikes are a "thing". Look at l'Eroica, for example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27Eroica There are similar events in other countries as well. You would fit right in! My choices are based on what I find works best for me. Pragmatism and utility are pretty much the opposite of fashion. Strangely enough, I base my choices on what I find works best for me, and my choices are not the same as yours, or Jay's, or Duane's, or Joerg's, or ... -- JS |
#76
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Chinese Carbon Wheelset
On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 10:12:19 +1000, James
wrote: On 27/8/19 9:55 am, John B. Slocomb wrote: A great idea. Then of course, I can print up some labels saying "125 grams lighter" for those that want to be just that little bit better :-) But where to put the label? If applied to the bicycle, you've made the bicycle heavier than it was... Who cares. It is the message that is important and our labels are manufactured from New Chinese carbon aerogel which weighs 0.16 milligrams/cm3. The lightest substance in the world. As soon as we can work the bugs out we plan to built bicycle frames from this substance which, when inflated with Hydrogen, will require a tether to prevent the bike from floating away. -- Cheers, John B. |
#77
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Chinese Carbon Wheelset
On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 01:29:00 -0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote: John B. Slocomb wrote: On Mon, 26 Aug 2019 11:52:29 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/26/2019 1:24 AM, James wrote: On 26/8/19 1:48 am, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/24/2019 9:58 PM, James wrote: On 25/8/19 7:36 am, Tom Kunich wrote: On Saturday, August 24, 2019 at 2:18:05 PM UTC-7, James wrote: On 25/8/19 5:18 am, Tom Kunich wrote: I have never used "carbon paste" for anything and can't imagine why. Imagine harder. -- JS Why? I have had CF frames for a long time. I've never even SEEN "carbon paste" let alone used it for anything. Because you complained about a CF seat post slipping.* You wrote: "In one point it again made that noise and it appears that it was the seat post moving. Think that I'll throw away that Campy Carbon *seatpost and install an aluminum one." So Tom is a case in point. He's got to be more mechanically competent *than most recreational cyclists. He's got decades of experience. But *even he doesn't know that carbon paste is recommended for many part *interfaces. I think there must be tens of thousands of newbies who will know less *than that, and will over-torque or otherwise damage lightweight CF parts, especially as CF gets less expensive and more common. To be fair, it is easy to over torque many fasteners on a modern bicycle that have no CF involved. Most A head stems, for example, are aluminium and spec'ed for ~7 Nm. Easy when you own a reasonable torque wrench designed for that low torque range, and easy to strip for those with fists of ham. And it's been easy to over torque stuff and damage parts for generations.* All cranks for square taper BBs for example.* If you properly grease the axle and nut or bolt, it is easy to pull a crank on too far by over torquing the fastener. Heck, if you over tighten spoke nipples you'll pull a nipple through an aluminium rim sooner or later, or damage a hub or break spokes! That's true, but the examples you gave pertain mostly to either lightweight equipment or equipment (cranks, spokes) that the casual cyclist doesn't typically deal with. Casual cyclists are the ones who are least likely to have torque wrenches, or to bother reading manuals for torque specs. Those people are most likely to adjust just a few things: Saddle height and tilt, stem height, handlebar tilt, and left-to-right handlebar straightness. Those can and should be designed to withstand ham-fisted newbie mechanics, and to not require exotic elixers that ordinary homeowners have never heard of. Maybe this could be a compromise: Make every bike in two models. One model would withstand the hacking of a typical garage mechanic. The other model would require a torque table and torque wrench. But the delicate model would come with bright red or bright yellow "DELICATE!" labels permanently fastened at every vulnerable joint. And somewhere on the frame, another bright yellow label saying "This DELICATE model is 124 grams [or whatever] lighter than its stronger mate." A great idea. Then of course, I can print up some labels saying "125 grams lighter" for those that want to be just that little bit better :-) -- But you guys don’t mock anyone do ya? In the words of the great Carl Marx, "from those according to their ability and to each according to their needs". -- Cheers, John B. |
#78
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Chinese Carbon Wheelset
On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 01:29:06 -0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote: John B. Slocomb wrote: On Mon, 26 Aug 2019 23:46:10 -0000 (UTC), Duane wrote: Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Monday, 26 August 2019 18:46:12 UTC-4, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Mon, 26 Aug 2019 12:25:23 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/25/2019 7:54 PM, jbeattie wrote: I went to meet my neighbor for a ride, and he says, hey, could you try riding my bike, it just isn't shifting well. So I got on his bike (which is way too small), and it had an odd shifting issue that didn't quite feel like new chain/cassette issues. It was subtle and more like a loose freehub body. So I tell him that, and he goes, O.K., let me check. He pops off the cassettes, checks the body, which isn't loose, but the cones on his Campy hub/wheel are a little loose, so he pulls out his cone wrenches, adjusts the hub, throws the cassettes back on and pops the wheel back in his Pinarello. Shifts like a charm. Took 8 minutes. Yes, some people are good bike mechanics. Most people are not. This will always be the case. Different people know different things, which is OK. But I think it's a bad idea to push actually fragile equipment to people who need rugged reliability a lot more than tiny improvements in speed. Grrrrrr. Rugged reliability! You know, I've never seen anyone force a super-light bike on someone, and I've been to a lot of bike shops. My son sold bikes and let people make stupid purchases, but they were usually double suspended fat bikes and other odd-ball bikes. He worked in Specialized and Trek shops, and I don't recall one instance of him forcing an S-Works Tarmac on some unsuspecting old lady or a Madone. I'm not accusing (most) bike shop people of pushing Madones on old ladies... even though I had a friend who decided to get into biking at about age 65, and was sold a similar bike. I suspect the guy's (much younger) cyclist girl friend was responsible for the bad choice, but the shop certainly abetted the decision. (The guy gave up riding after a few months.) But I think the industry does tend to promote unneeded sophistication and, in some cases, fragility. It's parallel to the auto industry pushing SUVs - each unit is much more profitable. It's not just carbon fiber. How about gearing? Only a microscopic percentage of cyclists get any benefit out of more than 8 rear cogs. Everyone with 9, and especially 10 or 11, pay for more expensive parts that are less failure tolerant and wear quicker. How about all the bottom bracket standards we've (or rather, you've) gone through? Each one intended to be lighter and stiffer - and weirder. Some consumers are now left up the creek without a crank. We've been around and around about road discs. Yes, they make sense for your rainy commutes, but they really don't make sense for most riders. But hey, they are "in"! Why buy a bike with rim brakes? Just because they work as well for almost everyone, are easier to adjust, easier to repair, cost less and are less fashionable? Wheels: Ever fewer spokes, of ever weirder designs, in ever lighter wheels. Do you remember days when spoke nipples didn't crack rims? I do remember, partly because I'm still using wheels like that. I remember when all my friends rode aluminum or steel frames, 5 or 6 or 7 rear cogs, square taper bottom brackets, etc. We're older now, but we and even the younger riders are no faster and ride no further now than in those days. I think the major problem is that "what's best" is still being defined as "what racers use." I think most bike makers still promote that mindset. I think it's a disservice to most bicyclists. But! It sells bicycles! (and without sales there would be no bicycle shops :-) -- Cheers, John B. Ah, but a lot of bicyclists want a bicycle that resembles a racing bicycle. Even in MTBs the tendency is towards racing bikes. Look at how the chainstays have become shorter on MTBs over the years since the early 1980s. Here's a small image of my 1980's Bianchi MTB. Look carefully and you can see the water bottle and cage mounted BEHIND the seattube. Cheers You don?t create markets by convincing consumers to need what you want to sell. Don?t you think it?s possible the suppliers are responding to the market demand? Basic marketing strategy, like basic stats seems to evade people. Yes, you do create markets by convincing consumers. Bull****. Even to the extent that the level of the shelves in the supermarket where your stuff is displayed is important as it has been known for years that people most often tended to buy stuff displayed at eye level, You’re confusing competition with market creation. Or that people predominantly buy autos of certain colors, or all the other things that the "marketers" have discovered about the buying habits of the vast unwashed. You’re confusing consumer preference with market creation. Red car or blue car,the market is for the car. Hardly. Aunt Jemima's pancake mix, first sold in 1893 could hardly be "market creation", after all every woman that could cook could make pancakes. Nope, it was convincing all those ladies that mixing up a batch of Aunt Jemama's was quicker, easier, and made less mess than starting with the raw materials. Or that people predominantly buy autos of certain colors, or all the other things that the "marketers" have discovered about the buying habits of the vast unwashed. You’re confusing consumer preference with market creation. Red car or blue car,the market is for the car. I see. Everybody has a car? Right? A God Given accessory awarded to each an every USian at age 16? Right? No need to sell them as everyone has one as a part of the national culture. Just got to convince them to buy the red one. Perhaps it is true.... but not in most of the world. Political Pundits do extensive survey's to see that will best convince the proletariat that "my guy is best" and cry "vote for my guy. He'll give you everything you'll ever want"! (Knowing of course, from the surveys exactly what the voter "wants") -- Totally irrelevant. Political marketing is different that commercial marketing? You must be kidding or the most unworldly individual in the universe. Or perhaps you are naive enough to believe that politicians develop their "platform" based on what is the absolute best thing for the nation/province/city/ town? -- Cheers, John B. |
#79
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Chinese Carbon Wheelset
James wrote:
On 27/8/19 12:33 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/26/2019 4:19 PM, AMuzi wrote: You often deride 'fashion', not recognizing that your own fashion is a decided subset of cycling overall. Well, in a sense, you're right: I certainly don't recognize my bike equipment choices as "fashion." A '72 steel frame bike with racks and bags and dyno lighting? An old touring bike with big bags front and back? A folding bike? An ancient tandem? My club members joke about how unfashionable I am! "Steel is real" is a fashion statement. Old steel road bikes are a "thing". Look at l'Eroica, for example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27Eroica There are similar events in other countries as well. You would fit right in! My choices are based on what I find works best for me. Pragmatism and utility are pretty much the opposite of fashion. Strangely enough, I base my choices on what I find works best for me, and my choices are not the same as yours, or Jay's, or Duane's, or Joerg's, or ... Weird huh? -- duane |
#80
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Chinese Carbon Wheelset
John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 01:29:00 -0000 (UTC), Duane wrote: John B. Slocomb wrote: On Mon, 26 Aug 2019 11:52:29 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/26/2019 1:24 AM, James wrote: On 26/8/19 1:48 am, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/24/2019 9:58 PM, James wrote: On 25/8/19 7:36 am, Tom Kunich wrote: On Saturday, August 24, 2019 at 2:18:05 PM UTC-7, James wrote: On 25/8/19 5:18 am, Tom Kunich wrote: I have never used "carbon paste" for anything and can't imagine why. Imagine harder. -- JS Why? I have had CF frames for a long time. I've never even SEEN "carbon paste" let alone used it for anything. Because you complained about a CF seat post slipping.* You wrote: "In one point it again made that noise and it appears that it was the seat post moving. Think that I'll throw away that Campy Carbon *seatpost and install an aluminum one." So Tom is a case in point. He's got to be more mechanically competent *than most recreational cyclists. He's got decades of experience. But *even he doesn't know that carbon paste is recommended for many part *interfaces. I think there must be tens of thousands of newbies who will know less *than that, and will over-torque or otherwise damage lightweight CF parts, especially as CF gets less expensive and more common. To be fair, it is easy to over torque many fasteners on a modern bicycle that have no CF involved. Most A head stems, for example, are aluminium and spec'ed for ~7 Nm. Easy when you own a reasonable torque wrench designed for that low torque range, and easy to strip for those with fists of ham. And it's been easy to over torque stuff and damage parts for generations.* All cranks for square taper BBs for example.* If you properly grease the axle and nut or bolt, it is easy to pull a crank on too far by over torquing the fastener. Heck, if you over tighten spoke nipples you'll pull a nipple through an aluminium rim sooner or later, or damage a hub or break spokes! That's true, but the examples you gave pertain mostly to either lightweight equipment or equipment (cranks, spokes) that the casual cyclist doesn't typically deal with. Casual cyclists are the ones who are least likely to have torque wrenches, or to bother reading manuals for torque specs. Those people are most likely to adjust just a few things: Saddle height and tilt, stem height, handlebar tilt, and left-to-right handlebar straightness. Those can and should be designed to withstand ham-fisted newbie mechanics, and to not require exotic elixers that ordinary homeowners have never heard of. Maybe this could be a compromise: Make every bike in two models. One model would withstand the hacking of a typical garage mechanic. The other model would require a torque table and torque wrench. But the delicate model would come with bright red or bright yellow "DELICATE!" labels permanently fastened at every vulnerable joint. And somewhere on the frame, another bright yellow label saying "This DELICATE model is 124 grams [or whatever] lighter than its stronger mate." A great idea. Then of course, I can print up some labels saying "125 grams lighter" for those that want to be just that little bit better :-) -- But you guys don’t mock anyone do ya? In the words of the great Carl Marx, "from those according to their ability and to each according to their needs". -- Cheers, John B. Cute. -- duane |
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