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  #1  
Old August 9th 19, 06:47 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
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Default Andrew

Is the front derailleur movement ratio the same on Shimano and Campy?
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  #2  
Old August 10th 19, 01:28 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 10,606
Default Andrew

On 8/9/2019 6:26 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, August 9, 2019 at 3:05:11 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
On 10/8/19 7:33 am, AMuzi wrote:


???

A current Chorus 12 set is about the same price as the equivalent Dura
Ace 11 speed set. Campagnolo doesn't make a Tourney or Claris equivalent
product.


And as it is known, the Campagnolo gear wears in while the other stuff
wears out ;-)


There are a number of aspects of the others offerings that I dislike and
I would rather Chorus than Dura Ace.


--
JS


James, I ride Record with the occasional Chorus piece when a Record part is unavailable. But I put together and ride Shimano bikes as well. I will tell you flat out that Shimano shifts better and remains shifting better over its lifetime. And if you're careful to keep it clean that is a hell of a long time.

Campy starts wearing the shifting ratchet from day one and by the end of a year or two it is constantly making noise shifts up and down. Moreover after they start a new series they do not make repair parts for the older groups. Some small companies make a living of buying up repair components and making a profit on them after a couple of years.

You cannot even get a Record triple any more. Since Campy isn't supposed to shift larger than a 28 cog (29 is stretching it) a triple was good for people incapable of riding up steep hills. I even was given a 28 and 26 ring for use on a Record Triple.

I appear to be getting in shape finally after a bad start of the year, so I am climbing pretty hard stuff in the 34-28 but why would you cast aside an entire group of people to appeal to the Snob Set?

With an Ultegra group you can make many more choices of gear ratios double and triple. And as I said, the shifting is so much better I can't understand why Campy couldn't get it right.



Uh, current Campagnolo 2x12 and 2x11 support the standard
11~32 cassette.

Ergo have not been rebuildable since 2007 but Ergo bodies
change out quickly and are not at all expensive as compared
to rebuild labor plus normal wearing parts on the steel-cam
1992 through 2006 versions.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #3  
Old August 10th 19, 03:21 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Posts: 9,240
Default Andrew

On Saturday, August 10, 2019 at 1:23:24 AM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/9/2019 6:10 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
Andre Jute
Economics isn't difficult: it is the commonsense activities of individuals considered in aggregate.


???


If the query is about the tagline to my sig, many economists with real life experience in business are moving away from the first two great commandments of classical economics, viz that all individuals in every market are fully informed and fully rational in every decision. That is clearly not so. We don't need to go further afield than RBT for an example.

Of course we don't go as far as Krugman, who is so Post-Modern, he's totally unmoored from reality, indeed he's unattached to anything he said yesterday or the day before, though in a few days he'll probably spout the same weirdness as he did a couple of weeks ago. In fact, he's so cyclically insane, we should make him an honorary member of RBT.

Andre Jute
Sane since I was 13. I wonder how I managed that.


Krugman is indeed unhinged and he was even before Trump
Derangement Syndrome.


I must quibble that although many individual investors are
frequently wrong, and provably so, the wisdom of crowds is a
real thing and an amazingly reliable economic indicator. Nor
infallible, but amazingly prescient usually.


I agree. However, the mob is never right. The trick is to distinguish the mob from the crowd.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


Andre Jute
I can't believe the foolishness of historians who equate the French and American Revolutions. The French wanted to raise a ravening mob of murderers, the American Founding Fathers created the Electoral College and other enduring institutions specifically to defend minorities against the mob.
  #4  
Old August 10th 19, 03:41 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 10,606
Default Andrew

On 8/9/2019 9:21 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Saturday, August 10, 2019 at 1:23:24 AM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/9/2019 6:10 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
Andre Jute
Economics isn't difficult: it is the commonsense activities of individuals considered in aggregate.


???

If the query is about the tagline to my sig, many economists with real life experience in business are moving away from the first two great commandments of classical economics, viz that all individuals in every market are fully informed and fully rational in every decision. That is clearly not so. We don't need to go further afield than RBT for an example.

Of course we don't go as far as Krugman, who is so Post-Modern, he's totally unmoored from reality, indeed he's unattached to anything he said yesterday or the day before, though in a few days he'll probably spout the same weirdness as he did a couple of weeks ago. In fact, he's so cyclically insane, we should make him an honorary member of RBT.

Andre Jute
Sane since I was 13. I wonder how I managed that.


Krugman is indeed unhinged and he was even before Trump
Derangement Syndrome.


I must quibble that although many individual investors are
frequently wrong, and provably so, the wisdom of crowds is a
real thing and an amazingly reliable economic indicator. Nor
infallible, but amazingly prescient usually.


I agree. However, the mob is never right. The trick is to distinguish the mob from the crowd.



Andre Jute
I can't believe the foolishness of historians who equate the French and American Revolutions. The French wanted to raise a ravening mob of murderers, the American Founding Fathers created the Electoral College and other enduring institutions specifically to defend minorities against the mob.


No one understood it better than Burke:

https://www.alibris.com/Reflections-...77?matches=601

An excellent short read and starting at just 99 cents.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #5  
Old August 10th 19, 06:31 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
James[_8_]
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Posts: 5,974
Default Andrew

On 10/8/19 10:28 am, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/9/2019 6:26 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, August 9, 2019 at 3:05:11 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
On 10/8/19 7:33 am, AMuzi wrote:


???

A current Chorus 12 set is about the same price as the equivalent Dura
Ace 11 speed set. Campagnolo doesn't make a Tourney or Claris
equivalent
product.


And as it is known, the Campagnolo gear wears in while the other stuff
wears out* ;-)


There are a number of aspects of the others offerings that I dislike and
I would rather Chorus than Dura Ace.


--
JS


James, I ride Record with the occasional Chorus piece when a Record
part is unavailable. But I put together and ride Shimano bikes as
well. I will tell you flat out that Shimano shifts better and remains
shifting better over its lifetime. And if you're careful to keep it
clean that is a hell of a long time.

Campy starts wearing the shifting ratchet from day one and by the end
of a year or two it is constantly making noise shifts up and down.
Moreover after they start a new series they do not make repair parts
for the older groups. Some small companies make a living of buying up
repair components and making a profit on them after a couple of years.

You cannot even get a Record triple any more. Since Campy isn't
supposed to shift larger than a 28 cog (29 is stretching it) a triple
was good for people incapable of riding up steep hills. I even was
given a 28 and 26 ring for use on a Record Triple.

I appear to be getting in shape finally after a bad start of the year,
so I am climbing pretty hard stuff in the 34-28 but why would you cast
aside an entire group of people to appeal to the Snob Set?

With an Ultegra group you can make many more choices of gear ratios
double and triple. And as I said, the shifting is so much better I
can't understand why Campy couldn't get it right.



Uh, current Campagnolo 2x12 and 2x11 support the standard 11~32 cassette.

Ergo have not been rebuildable since 2007 but Ergo bodies change out
quickly and are not at all expensive as compared to rebuild labor plus
normal wearing parts on the steel-cam 1992 through 2006 versions.



And there is a triple available in some of the cheaper groups?

https://www.campagnolo.com/AU/en/Cam...aur_and_veloce

A Centaur 10s triple would be awesome to replace the Shimano Sora 9s
that came with my gravel tourer.

--
JS
  #6  
Old August 10th 19, 06:40 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
James[_8_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,974
Default Andrew

On 10/8/19 9:26 am, Tom Kunich wrote:


James, I ride Record with the occasional Chorus piece when a Record
part is unavailable. But I put together and ride Shimano bikes as
well. I will tell you flat out that Shimano shifts better and remains
shifting better over its lifetime. And if you're careful to keep it
clean that is a hell of a long time.

Campy starts wearing the shifting ratchet from day one and by the end
of a year or two it is constantly making noise shifts up and down.
Moreover after they start a new series they do not make repair parts
for the older groups. Some small companies make a living of buying up
repair components and making a profit on them after a couple of
years.

You cannot even get a Record triple any more. Since Campy isn't
supposed to shift larger than a 28 cog (29 is stretching it) a triple
was good for people incapable of riding up steep hills. I even was
given a 28 and 26 ring for use on a Record Triple.

I appear to be getting in shape finally after a bad start of the
year, so I am climbing pretty hard stuff in the 34-28 but why would
you cast aside an entire group of people to appeal to the Snob Set?

With an Ultegra group you can make many more choices of gear ratios
double and triple. And as I said, the shifting is so much better I
can't understand why Campy couldn't get it right.


I've use both too. I still prefer Campagnolo.

On Campagnolo triples...
https://www.campagnolo.com/AU/en/Cam...aur_and_veloce

I guess perhaps Campagnolo see their more expensive gear preferred by
racers, so a triple isn't likely to sell, and people who are more likely
to want a triple also tend to buy less expensive gear.

Shimano shifting is so much better? I don't agree.

--
JS
  #7  
Old August 10th 19, 08:27 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 450
Default Andrew

On Saturday, August 10, 2019 at 7:40:28 AM UTC+2, James wrote:
On 10/8/19 9:26 am, Tom Kunich wrote:


James, I ride Record with the occasional Chorus piece when a Record
part is unavailable. But I put together and ride Shimano bikes as
well. I will tell you flat out that Shimano shifts better and remains
shifting better over its lifetime. And if you're careful to keep it
clean that is a hell of a long time.

Campy starts wearing the shifting ratchet from day one and by the end
of a year or two it is constantly making noise shifts up and down.
Moreover after they start a new series they do not make repair parts
for the older groups. Some small companies make a living of buying up
repair components and making a profit on them after a couple of
years.

You cannot even get a Record triple any more. Since Campy isn't
supposed to shift larger than a 28 cog (29 is stretching it) a triple
was good for people incapable of riding up steep hills. I even was
given a 28 and 26 ring for use on a Record Triple.

I appear to be getting in shape finally after a bad start of the
year, so I am climbing pretty hard stuff in the 34-28 but why would
you cast aside an entire group of people to appeal to the Snob Set?

With an Ultegra group you can make many more choices of gear ratios
double and triple. And as I said, the shifting is so much better I
can't understand why Campy couldn't get it right.


I've use both too. I still prefer Campagnolo.

On Campagnolo triples...
https://www.campagnolo.com/AU/en/Cam...aur_and_veloce

I guess perhaps Campagnolo see their more expensive gear preferred by
racers, so a triple isn't likely to sell, and people who are more likely
to want a triple also tend to buy less expensive gear.


That is something I don't understand. Look who can and does buy the most expensive bikes(stuff). That are middle aged people with a good income/pension, no kids to take care of anymore. They are not the most powerful people and no racers. That is where the business is, so why not make one high end triple crankset? Who is going to put a Veloce triple crankset on a for the rest Super Record equipped bike? I don't, so a struggle with a 50/36 and 11/32 gearing but for me that is not low enough for the Kitzbuhler Horn, Mortirolo or Angliru.


Shimano shifting is so much better? I don't agree.


I ride both and I can't say that one or the other shifts better. It shifts differently but with Shimano less force is needed. That is not the same as 'shifting better'. All my shifts with Shimano and Campagnolo set ups are fast and precise. If Tom's Campy setup doesn't shifts well something else is wrong and Campy shifting certainly doesn't deteriorates from day 1.

Lou

  #8  
Old August 10th 19, 09:01 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Chalo
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Posts: 5,015
Default Andrew

Campagnolo components constitute a pass/fail intelligence test. They work poorly, cost much, are expensive to maintain, and are (at best) inconsistently supported. I don't love Shimano and I loathe SRAM, but either one represents better value than Crampy. All three have taken cyclists and cycle service professionals for a ride.
  #9  
Old August 10th 19, 03:21 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,240
Default Andrew

On Saturday, August 10, 2019 at 3:41:31 AM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/9/2019 9:21 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Saturday, August 10, 2019 at 1:23:24 AM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/9/2019 6:10 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
Andre Jute
Economics isn't difficult: it is the commonsense activities of individuals considered in aggregate.


???

If the query is about the tagline to my sig, many economists with real life experience in business are moving away from the first two great commandments of classical economics, viz that all individuals in every market are fully informed and fully rational in every decision. That is clearly not so. We don't need to go further afield than RBT for an example.

Of course we don't go as far as Krugman, who is so Post-Modern, he's totally unmoored from reality, indeed he's unattached to anything he said yesterday or the day before, though in a few days he'll probably spout the same weirdness as he did a couple of weeks ago. In fact, he's so cyclically insane, we should make him an honorary member of RBT.

Andre Jute
Sane since I was 13. I wonder how I managed that.


Krugman is indeed unhinged and he was even before Trump
Derangement Syndrome.


I must quibble that although many individual investors are
frequently wrong, and provably so, the wisdom of crowds is a
real thing and an amazingly reliable economic indicator. Nor
infallible, but amazingly prescient usually.


I agree. However, the mob is never right. The trick is to distinguish the mob from the crowd.



Andre Jute
I can't believe the foolishness of historians who equate the French and American Revolutions. The French wanted to raise a ravening mob of murderers, the American Founding Fathers created the Electoral College and other enduring institutions specifically to defend minorities against the mob.


No one understood it better than Burke:

https://www.alibris.com/Reflections-...77?matches=601

An excellent short read and starting at just 99 cents.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


Thanks, Andrew. I know it, and in fact have it (free from Project Gutenberg) on iBooks to read on my treadmill, but first I want to read Thomas Carlyle History of the French Revolution again, to which Burke makes a suitable coda. At the moment I'm working my way through Stephen Meyers Darwin's Doubt, which may be the most important book of the century so far, and Carlyle is next. He's an agreeable stylist and a meticulous historian, so I won't be rushing the pleasure.

Andre Jute
Now let us praise famous men -- Ecclesiastes on Steve Jobs, inventor of the iPad
  #10  
Old August 10th 19, 03:30 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,240
Default Andrew

On Saturday, August 10, 2019 at 9:02:00 AM UTC+1, Chalo wrote:
Campagnolo components constitute a pass/fail intelligence test. They work poorly, cost much, are expensive to maintain, and are (at best) inconsistently supported. I don't love Shimano and I loathe SRAM, but either one represents better value than Crampy. All three have taken cyclists and cycle service professionals for a ride.


I admire Shimano: quite a bit of their gear, if you take care not to go higher than Deore, is reliable, reasonably priced stuff. That said, I wrecked two Nexus hub gearboxes before 5000m -- together. And my favourite bike for the last ten years has not a single Shimano component on it, just German or Swiss gear on a Dutch-built frame.

Andre Jute
Bicycle chauvinism is now a boutique choice
 




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