A Cycling & bikes forum. CycleBanter.com

Go Back   Home » CycleBanter.com forum » rec.bicycles » Techniques
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Is Shimano chain quality dropping?



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old August 11th 19, 08:45 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 624
Default Is Shimano chain quality dropping?

On Sunday, August 11, 2019 at 11:00:25 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/11/2019 12:26 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, August 11, 2019 at 7:00:36 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 8/10/2019 6:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:

snip

To OP's quest for a _six speed_ drive chain my current recommendation is
the Wippermann 7.08 nickel plated chain. Those are new here so I can't
speak to longevity but they are fat (a feature for 5/6 freewheels) and
include a Connex snaplink. Nothing wrong with KMC Z33 for six speed BTW.
As chain gets skinnier, classic 5/6 shifting suffers.

Agreed, the KMC Z33 is fine for 5 and 6 speed freewheels, and the 8 and
9 (and 10 and 11) should be avoided. No upside in spending more for
poorer shifting.

The issue is that finding the older chains in a shop is often not easy
since 5 and 6 speed freewheels haven't been used in a long time. So
often they'll sell naive customers a 7 or 8 speed narrower chain and
assure them that it'll work fine.


5, 6, 7 and 8 speed freewheels are readily available since most of the world is still using them. You can even get 9 speed freewheels.


Two weeks ago I would have agreed with you:

https://www.amazon.com/Ventura-Speed.../dp/B00ZHYFMXY

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


Am I understanding you that you meant you would previously have disagree with me? These are available from at least 3 firms which all appear to be Chinese. Flywheel, Bolany and Sunrace. Perhaps another company names Lixada.
Ads
  #12  
Old August 11th 19, 08:49 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 624
Default Is Shimano chain quality dropping?

On Sunday, August 11, 2019 at 11:33:57 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 8/11/2019 11:00 AM, AMuzi wrote:

snip

Two weeks ago I would have agreed with you:

https://www.amazon.com/Ventura-Speed.../dp/B00ZHYFMXY


While I'm sure your shop has a supply of 5 and 6 speed freewheels, the
shops around here are not stocking parts for bicycles that are no longer
often coming in for repairs. They would offer to order it from QBP and
it would arrive in 1-2 weeks. They would also try to sell you a 7/8
speed narrow chain with assurances that it would work fine even though,
as you said, "shifting suffers."

With all the complaints from some LBS owners about people shopping
online, the reality is that it's often because the LBS simply can't
stock all the esoteric parts and accessories that could sit on the shelf
for years before someone bought them.

I ordered a SRAM 10.5mm x 26 tpi axle nut from you after trying a bunch
of local shops, most of which didn't know what the heck I was talking
about. Nor did most shops know that a 13/32" x 26TPI Sturmey-Archer nut
would work satisfactorily.


The only difference between the 5-6 and the 7-8 and 9 speed chains is the distance that the rivets stick out if memory serves. Also they are far more flexible since high-high and low-low are so wide apart.
  #13  
Old August 12th 19, 03:30 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Chalo
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,019
Default Is Shimano chain quality dropping?

Tom Kunich wrote:

5, 6, 7 and 8 speed freewheels are readily available since most of the
world is still using them. You can even get 9 speed freewheels.


You can get nice 10-speed freewheels from SunRace, too. They're intended for e-bikes with rear hub motors, because those are some of the only bikes that can benefit from them.

The problem with 8/9/10 speed freewheels is the same as it's always been-- when you overhang an axle that far, you bend and then break it. It's enough of a problem with 7sp freewheels that it's why cassette freehubs were developed.

Freewheels that wide are best reserved for e-bike hub motors or other hubs that have thick sturdy axles. There's no technical reason big-axle freewheel hubs couldn't be the default, but they're not. I have made a few of them out of big-axle BMX hubs (and from scratch), but that's a project for a machinist.

If you want to take a crack at it, you can fit a 3/4" or 19mm diameter round axle inside a standard Shimano pattern freewheel remover tool.
  #14  
Old August 12th 19, 02:53 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,628
Default Is Shimano chain quality dropping?

On 8/11/2019 1:33 PM, sms wrote:
On 8/11/2019 11:00 AM, AMuzi wrote:

snip

Two weeks ago I would have agreed with you:

https://www.amazon.com/Ventura-Speed.../dp/B00ZHYFMXY


While I'm sure your shop has a supply of 5 and 6 speed
freewheels, the shops around here are not stocking parts for
bicycles that are no longer often coming in for repairs.
They would offer to order it from QBP and it would arrive in
1-2 weeks. They would also try to sell you a 7/8 speed
narrow chain with assurances that it would work fine even
though, as you said, "shifting suffers."

With all the complaints from some LBS owners about people
shopping online, the reality is that it's often because the
LBS simply can't stock all the esoteric parts and
accessories that could sit on the shelf for years before
someone bought them.

I ordered a SRAM 10.5mm x 26 tpi axle nut from you after
trying a bunch of local shops, most of which didn't know
what the heck I was talking about. Nor did most shops know
that a 13/32" x 26TPI Sturmey-Archer nut would work
satisfactorily.


A California 94XXX shop should be using your local product,
IRD freewheels, in 5, 6 7 speed. Could get delivery by bike
messenger in a couple hours I would think.

http://www.interlocracing.com/casset...eels-567-speed

As of last Friday, there are very exciting new IRD sizes,
including 26t low gear, none of which have been made in any
brand freewheel anywhere on earth for over twenty years.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #15  
Old August 12th 19, 03:15 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,597
Default Is Shimano chain quality dropping?

On 8/12/2019 6:53 AM, AMuzi wrote:

snip

A California 94XXX shop should be using your local product, IRD
freewheels, in 5, 6 7 speed. Could get delivery by bike messenger in a
couple hours I would think.


LOL, in my dreams.

If I drove to Redwood City, twenty miles away or so, and asked Mike or
Steve they would know about IRD and could order it for me from Merry
Sales, though it would not arrive the same day. Shops typically put in
one order a week from QBP, unless you want them to do a special order
and you agree to pay shipping.
  #16  
Old August 14th 19, 07:32 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3
Default Is Shimano chain quality dropping?

On Sunday, August 11, 2019 at 7:00:36 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
The issue is that finding the older chains in a shop is often not easy
since 5 and 6 speed freewheels haven't been used in a long time. So
often they'll sell naive customers a 7 or 8 speed narrower chain and
assure them that it'll work fine.


It's not just the shops that take this attitude. AFAIK, Shimano's only current chain for 6 and 7 speed, are 8-speed chains (CN-HG40, CN-HG71) that are labelled as being for 6/7/8 speeds.

I suppose that being Hyperglide chains, Shimano only intends for them to be used with 6/7/8 speed Hyperglide sprockets. I guess Hyperglide's ramps take over the role of protruding pins snagging adjacent sprockets when shifting.
  #17  
Old August 14th 19, 09:11 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3
Default Is Shimano chain quality dropping?

On Sunday, August 11, 2019 at 12:49:21 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
The only difference between the 5-6 and the 7-8 and 9 speed chains is the distance that the rivets stick out if memory serves. Also they are far more flexible since high-high and low-low are so wide apart.


I think technically, 5-6 pin chains had pins (not rivets) that were simple cylinders. With 8 speed chains, there's so little protrusion that the plates couldn't be trusted to stay on a simple cylinder, so pins are swaged (riveted) for retention. I'm not sure which way things went for 7 speed, though it may be that different manufacturers went different ways for that.

There's also differences in construction and plate shape.

5/6 speed chains were originally bushing chains. Then Sedisport came along with a narrow bushingless chain for ultra-6/7. I think there was some overlap in this era, with SunTour favouring stiffer chains for Accushift while Shimano went to more flexible bushingless chains for SIS. AFAIK everything since then has been bushingless.

The other thing is side plate shape. In the 5/6 speed days, Shimano Uniglide chains had bulging outer plates to better snag adjacent sprockets for shifts. The earliest ones were too wide to fit the 5.0mm sprocket spacing of 7-speed, so there were so-called narrow chains, which presumably had less of a bulge.
Subsequent chains got narrower and narrower (making the 'narrow' designation of 7-speed kinda backwards nowadays) with the plates bulging less and less. I think 10-speed chains have gone back to being completely flat, but even before that, I think (but am not sure) 9-speed chains went to thinner side plates.
  #18  
Old August 15th 19, 06:31 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Chalo
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,019
Default Is Shimano chain quality dropping?

wrote:

I suppose that being Hyperglide chains, Shimano only intends for them to be
used with 6/7/8 speed Hyperglide sprockets. I guess Hyperglide's ramps
take over the role of protruding pins snagging adjacent sprockets when
shifting.


In practice, I find that 8-speed compatible modern chains usually shift better on ancient freewheels than old style chains did. Whether that's due to increased lateral flexibility or beveled sideplates or both, I don't know.

My daily rider these days uses a Z72 8 speed chain, a Suntour 14-38 5 speed freewheel, a Microshift 9 speed rear derailleur, and Shimano 6 speed index thumbshifter. It all works fine together, which is more than you can say for a lot of newly produced stuff.
  #19  
Old August 15th 19, 07:50 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,283
Default Is Shimano chain quality dropping?

On Thursday, August 15, 2019 at 1:31:49 PM UTC-4, Chalo wrote:

In practice, I find that 8-speed compatible modern chains usually shift better on ancient freewheels than old style chains did. Whether that's due to increased lateral flexibility or beveled sideplates or both, I don't know.


They certainly work well for me.

- Frank Krygowski
  #20  
Old August 15th 19, 08:18 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 624
Default Is Shimano chain quality dropping?

On Wednesday, August 14, 2019 at 1:11:21 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, August 11, 2019 at 12:49:21 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
The only difference between the 5-6 and the 7-8 and 9 speed chains is the distance that the rivets stick out if memory serves. Also they are far more flexible since high-high and low-low are so wide apart.


I think technically, 5-6 pin chains had pins (not rivets) that were simple cylinders. With 8 speed chains, there's so little protrusion that the plates couldn't be trusted to stay on a simple cylinder, so pins are swaged (riveted) for retention. I'm not sure which way things went for 7 speed, though it may be that different manufacturers went different ways for that.

There's also differences in construction and plate shape.

5/6 speed chains were originally bushing chains. Then Sedisport came along with a narrow bushingless chain for ultra-6/7. I think there was some overlap in this era, with SunTour favouring stiffer chains for Accushift while Shimano went to more flexible bushingless chains for SIS. AFAIK everything since then has been bushingless.

The other thing is side plate shape. In the 5/6 speed days, Shimano Uniglide chains had bulging outer plates to better snag adjacent sprockets for shifts. The earliest ones were too wide to fit the 5.0mm sprocket spacing of 7-speed, so there were so-called narrow chains, which presumably had less of a bulge.
Subsequent chains got narrower and narrower (making the 'narrow' designation of 7-speed kinda backwards nowadays) with the plates bulging less and less. I think 10-speed chains have gone back to being completely flat, but even before that, I think (but am not sure) 9-speed chains went to thinner side plates.


My youngest stepdaughter just had me overhauling her Bridgestone Synergy (probably something like an RB-2). The 7 speed chain is very heavy, pins protruding and low-low and high-high are clumsy. The older the Shimano brifters get or the more dirt they are around, the slower they operate until they quit altogether. You CAN take these things apart and clean them up and my guess is that they would work like new reassembled. But I've never managed to get one apart without parts flying all over the place. Inside there are what appear to be fiber washers and any dirt on them would stop everything.
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Installing rear wheel without dropping chain Joe Riel Techniques 18 January 6th 16 07:45 PM
Issue with Shimano 10 Speed chain dropping [email protected] Techniques 6 June 21st 06 01:35 PM
Sora chain ring "dropping off" going from large to small ring? Yuri Budilov Techniques 18 September 7th 04 03:14 PM
Variable quality Shimano MartinM UK 21 March 1st 04 11:31 AM
USPS dropping Trek and Shimano! anonymous Racing 39 January 2nd 04 11:12 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:36 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2019 CycleBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.