Peugeot PX-10 max cog size?

A friend has a vintage Peugeot PX-10, once upon a time nicely upgraded
with Phil Woods axles and BB. He is heavily into MTB, home-made electric
bikes and stuff and I have a hard time convincing him to fix up his road
bike. IOW, the bike doesn't need much other than new shifter handles, a
new freewheel and new tires. However, he doesn't want to put a lot of
effort and money into that.

The corn cob freewheels don't work in our hilly area for us, ahem, older
guys. What is the largest cog size a PX-10 can take without installing a
new derailer?

My old Shimano 600 was said to max out at 28T but I got it to easily
shift up to 32T by moving the wheel slightly forward in the dropout
slots. AFAIK that isn't possible on a PX-10 because it has short slots.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Friday, September 21, 2018 at 12:45:50 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
A friend has a vintage Peugeot PX-10, once upon a time nicely upgraded
with Phil Woods axles and BB. He is heavily into MTB, home-made electric
bikes and stuff and I have a hard time convincing him to fix up his road
bike. IOW, the bike doesn't need much other than new shifter handles, a
new freewheel and new tires. However, he doesn't want to put a lot of
effort and money into that.

The corn cob freewheels don't work in our hilly area for us, ahem, older
guys. What is the largest cog size a PX-10 can take without installing a
new derailer?

My old Shimano 600 was said to max out at 28T but I got it to easily
shift up to 32T by moving the wheel slightly forward in the dropout
slots. AFAIK that isn't possible on a PX-10 because it has short slots.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

The real question is where in the hell do you get French freewheels with more than 28 tooth large cogs.

I was able to convert some to 8 speeds from 7's and the one thing you really need is a compact crank and not that absolutely horrible 52/48 like Jobst used to ride. He used to climb in a 48-19 and while he made it look easy he also moved at a snail's pace up hills.

That in turn is a possible but expensive change to a bike with French threaded BB.

And just between you and me, the PX-10 had really good geometry but the tubing was a rubber band.

On 2018-09-21 12:55, wrote:
On Friday, September 21, 2018 at 12:45:50 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
A friend has a vintage Peugeot PX-10, once upon a time nicely
upgraded with Phil Woods axles and BB. He is heavily into MTB,
home-made electric bikes and stuff and I have a hard time
convincing him to fix up his road bike. IOW, the bike doesn't need
much other than new shifter handles, a new freewheel and new tires.
However, he doesn't want to put a lot of effort and money into
that.

The corn cob freewheels don't work in our hilly area for us, ahem,
older guys. What is the largest cog size a PX-10 can take without
installing a new derailer?

My old Shimano 600 was said to max out at 28T but I got it to
easily shift up to 32T by moving the wheel slightly forward in the
dropout slots. AFAIK that isn't possible on a PX-10 because it has
short slots.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

The real question is where in the hell do you get French freewheels
with more than 28 tooth large cogs.


It has Phil Woods hubs so I assume that's all standard stuff. You can
even get 34T but that's a stretch with short road bike derailers:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Shimano-TZ3...4/322007138705


I was able to convert some to 8 speeds from 7's and the one thing you
really need is a compact crank and not that absolutely horrible 52/48
like Jobst used to ride. He used to climb in a 48-19 and while he
made it look easy he also moved at a snail's pace up hills.


Many of those old bikes can't have a compact unless you replace the BB
and the front derailer as well. I have 52/42 up front. I believe they
have a 39 as well but hard to find and won't make that big of a difference.


That in turn is a possible but expensive change to a bike with French
threaded BB.


Yup.


And just between you and me, the PX-10 had really good geometry but
the tubing was a rubber band.


Wouldn't be so bad because we'd be riding smooth long bike paths most of
the time, without standing in the pedals.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 9/21/2018 2:55 PM, wrote:
On Friday, September 21, 2018 at 12:45:50 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
A friend has a vintage Peugeot PX-10, once upon a time nicely upgraded
with Phil Woods axles and BB. He is heavily into MTB, home-made electric
bikes and stuff and I have a hard time convincing him to fix up his road
bike. IOW, the bike doesn't need much other than new shifter handles, a
new freewheel and new tires. However, he doesn't want to put a lot of
effort and money into that.

The corn cob freewheels don't work in our hilly area for us, ahem, older
guys. What is the largest cog size a PX-10 can take without installing a
new derailer?

My old Shimano 600 was said to max out at 28T but I got it to easily
shift up to 32T by moving the wheel slightly forward in the dropout
slots. AFAIK that isn't possible on a PX-10 because it has short slots.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

The real question is where in the hell do you get French freewheels with more than 28 tooth large cogs.

I was able to convert some to 8 speeds from 7's and the one thing you really need is a compact crank and not that absolutely horrible 52/48 like Jobst used to ride. He used to climb in a 48-19 and while he made it look easy he also moved at a snail's pace up hills.

That in turn is a possible but expensive change to a bike with French threaded BB.

And just between you and me, the PX-10 had really good geometry but the tubing was a rubber band.


Phil FW hubs are all and only BSC thread, not French metric.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 9/21/2018 2:46 PM, Joerg wrote:
A friend has a vintage Peugeot PX-10, once upon a time
nicely upgraded with Phil Woods axles and BB. He is heavily
into MTB, home-made electric bikes and stuff and I have a
hard time convincing him to fix up his road bike. IOW, the
bike doesn't need much other than new shifter handles, a new
freewheel and new tires. However, he doesn't want to put a
lot of effort and money into that.

The corn cob freewheels don't work in our hilly area for us,
ahem, older guys. What is the largest cog size a PX-10 can
take without installing a new derailer?

My old Shimano 600 was said to max out at 28T but I got it
to easily shift up to 32T by moving the wheel slightly
forward in the dropout slots. AFAIK that isn't possible on a
PX-10 because it has short slots.


How vintage is it? A 1960s through late 1970s PX10 has very
long ends and a Simplex Criterium can span a 28FW with the
Stronglight 63 or 93 crank's 38t low front ring.

1980s PX10 has standard ends and can take a modern $15 rear
changer. Ugly, but fits and then you could go to a 34FW

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 2018-09-21 13:39, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/21/2018 2:46 PM, Joerg wrote:
A friend has a vintage Peugeot PX-10, once upon a time
nicely upgraded with Phil Woods axles and BB. He is heavily
into MTB, home-made electric bikes and stuff and I have a
hard time convincing him to fix up his road bike. IOW, the
bike doesn't need much other than new shifter handles, a new
freewheel and new tires. However, he doesn't want to put a
lot of effort and money into that.

The corn cob freewheels don't work in our hilly area for us,
ahem, older guys. What is the largest cog size a PX-10 can
take without installing a new derailer?

My old Shimano 600 was said to max out at 28T but I got it
to easily shift up to 32T by moving the wheel slightly
forward in the dropout slots. AFAIK that isn't possible on a
PX-10 because it has short slots.


How vintage is it? A 1960s through late 1970s PX10 has very long ends
and a Simplex Criterium can span a 28FW with the Stronglight 63 or 93
crank's 38t low front ring.


Thanks. With long slots it might even accept 32T. That's what my bike
did even though everyone told me it wouldn't (1982 Gazelle Trim Trophy
frame). I rode 28T max for a while but found that on some hills I am
simply too old for that. Or ... ahem ... too old and too heavy.


1980s PX10 has standard ends and can take a modern $15 rear changer.
Ugly, but fits and then you could go to a 34FW


I'd have to ask him but likely it is an 80's model. Ugly wouldn't matter
to him and $15 is palatable.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Friday, September 21, 2018 at 12:45:50 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
A friend has a vintage Peugeot PX-10, once upon a time nicely upgraded
with Phil Woods axles and BB. He is heavily into MTB, home-made electric
bikes and stuff and I have a hard time convincing him to fix up his road
bike. IOW, the bike doesn't need much other than new shifter handles, a
new freewheel and new tires. However, he doesn't want to put a lot of
effort and money into that.

The corn cob freewheels don't work in our hilly area for us, ahem, older
guys. What is the largest cog size a PX-10 can take without installing a
new derailer?

My old Shimano 600 was said to max out at 28T but I got it to easily
shift up to 32T by moving the wheel slightly forward in the dropout
slots. AFAIK that isn't possible on a PX-10 because it has short slots.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Dude, its Phil Wood hubs and not Phil Woods "axles." Phil would be spinning in his grave.

The short answer is that the bike probably has a Simplex Prestige or LJ derailleur that will handle a 28t cog and maybe larger. You will have trouble finding a 5sp freewheel with a larger-than-28 cog. Its more common for 6sp to get into the 30t range.

Having been through this exercise with a PX10, a few points: (1) the derailleur hanger is French threaded and will not accept a modern derailleur. The hanger will have to be tapped to 10mm and filed for a b-adjuster, (2) it has 120mm spacing, and the stays will have to be spread to accommodate a modern 130mm hub if your pal wants to join the modern era. That is no big deal for a competent shop. I did that at home, but I also have dropout alignment tools. (3) Your pal is hosed when it comes to headsets unless he can find NOS French. Viola! https://www.amazon.com/Velo-Orange-T.../dp/B004JKGW9U He's also stuck with a 22.0mm OD stem, unless he can find NOS or wants to sand a new stem to 22.0mm. Don't ream the steerer. None of the bearings are standard size and neither is the DT if he wants to change his FD. The seatpost is probably 26.4 or some other odd size. If its the old Simplex seatpost, it also weighs about six pounds. The French went out of their way to make their bikes incompatible with the rest of the world..

If I had an old PX10, I'd sell it to a collector and get a modern bike. Skip all the hassles.


-- Jay Beattie.

On 2018-09-21 13:58, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, September 21, 2018 at 12:45:50 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
A friend has a vintage Peugeot PX-10, once upon a time nicely
upgraded with Phil Woods axles and BB. He is heavily into MTB,
home-made electric bikes and stuff and I have a hard time
convincing him to fix up his road bike. IOW, the bike doesn't need
much other than new shifter handles, a new freewheel and new tires.
However, he doesn't want to put a lot of effort and money into
that.

The corn cob freewheels don't work in our hilly area for us, ahem,
older guys. What is the largest cog size a PX-10 can take without
installing a new derailer?

My old Shimano 600 was said to max out at 28T but I got it to
easily shift up to 32T by moving the wheel slightly forward in the
dropout slots. AFAIK that isn't possible on a PX-10 because it has
short slots.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Dude, its Phil Wood hubs and not Phil Woods "axles." Phil would be
spinning in his grave.


Oops. Sorry, Phil, if you can hear me. Though they did make the axles
there, too.


The short answer is that the bike probably has a Simplex Prestige or
LJ derailleur that will handle a 28t cog and maybe larger. You will
have trouble finding a 5sp freewheel with a larger-than-28 cog. Its
more common for 6sp to get into the 30t range.


I've seen them up to 34T though but then the 34T cog was a bail-out
configuration, big step from the next one. That would be ok for my
friend as well.


Having been through this exercise with a PX10, a few points: (1) the
derailleur hanger is French threaded and will not accept a modern
derailleur. The hanger will have to be tapped to 10mm and filed for
a b-adjuster, (2) it has 120mm spacing, and the stays will have to be
spread to accommodate a modern 130mm hub if your pal wants to join
the modern era. That is no big deal for a competent shop. I did
that at home, but I also have dropout alignment tools.


He is a machinist and tool & die maker by trade, has a fully equipped
garage with lathe, mill and so on. He is building stuff for his various
vehicles all the time and made a couple of parts for my MTB so I could
build a sturdy rack.

120mm is a pain though, 10mm is a lot of widening. Looks like this one
can be shortened by grinding off the outer cog:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Shimano-TZ3...4/322007138705


... (3) Your pal
is hosed when it comes to headsets unless he can find NOS French.
Viola!
https://www.amazon.com/Velo-Orange-T.../dp/B004JKGW9U
He's also stuck with a 22.0mm OD stem, unless he can find NOS or
wants to sand a new stem to 22.0mm. Don't ream the steerer. None of
the bearings are standard size and neither is the DT if he wants to
change his FD. The seatpost is probably 26.4 or some other odd size.
If its the old Simplex seatpost, it also weighs about six pounds. The
French went out of their way to make their bikes incompatible with
the rest of the world.


Yes, I remember that. If it was me I'd probably get a new bike or a used
one from Craigslist. However, such mechanical stuff leaves this guy
completely unfazed. He'll likely have to mod the front a bit as well
because drop bars give him neck pain.


If I had an old PX10, I'd sell it to a collector and get a modern
bike. Skip all the hassles.


Agree. I'd do the same, and maybe he will.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Friday, September 21, 2018 at 5:34:11 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
Snipped
He is a machinist and tool & die maker by trade, has a fully equipped
garage with lathe, mill and so on. He is building stuff for his various
vehicles all the time and made a couple of parts for my MTB so I could
build a sturdy rack.

120mm is a pain though, 10mm is a lot of widening. Looks like this one
can be shortened by grinding off the outer cog:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Shimano-TZ3...4/322007138705
Snipped

Is he going to grind down the body too?

He should read Sheldon Brown: https://www.sheldonbrown.com/speeds.html and https://www.sheldonbrown.com/freewheels.html

"The freewheel threading on these older hubs is generally interchangeable except for some very old French units. If you go from a 5-speed freewheel to a 6- or 7-speed freewheel, you will usually need to add some spacers to the right end of the axle between the cone and the locknut. Once you have done this, you'll also need to re-dish the wheel to bring the rim back to the centerline. You may need to re-space the frame if you have added spacers to the axle. See my Frame Spacing Article for details on this."

"How Many Speeds?

The first multiple-speed freewheels had 3 sprockets, using the traditional 1/8" chain.

In the 1950s, narrower 3/32" sprockets and chains were introduced, permitting the move to 4-sprocket freewheels within the then-standard 114 mm (4 1/2") frame spacing
5 Speeds
In the late 1950s, spacing was widened to 120 mm to permit the use of 5-speed freewheels. This required adding spacers to the right-hand end of the axle to keep the chain from rubbing on the frame. The added spacers required additional dish to the spokes, causing wheels to become somewhat weaker.
6 Speeds
In the 1970s, there was a move toward 6-speed freewheels. These were of two types:

"Standard" spaced 6 speeds had sprocket-to-sprocket spacing the same as the existing 5 speeds, around 5.5 mm

Standard spaced 6-speeds required increasing the frame spacing to 126 mm, aggravating the problems introduced with the move to 5-speed, but still providing satisfactory service in most cases.

'"Ultra Six ®"' spaced 6 speeds used a closer spacing, around 5 mm. This permitted an Ultra Six ® freewheel to directly replace a standard 5-speed unit on a 120 mm hub. The key to making this work was the use of a narrower chain. The interior width of the chain was the same as always, but the new narrower chains used shorter rivets, so the ends of the rivets didn't protrude past the outer chain plates, as the rivets in traditional chains did.

7 Speeds
In the 1980s, these two approaches were combined to create 7-speed freewheels, with 5 mm ("Ultra") spacing that would fit the same 126 mm hubs as "standard" 6-speeds."

So, to cold set a steel frame you only need to move each dropout 3mm. That's not hard to do and Sheldon tells you how to do it easily.

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html

"Do You Need To Permanently Spread Your Frame?

Ideally, the frame spacing should exactly match the hub spacing. This makes for easiest wheel replacement. In practice, however, there's a fair amount of latitude in fit. In fact, when the first 130 mm 8-speed hubs were introduced, they had locknuts with beveled sides, so that you could "spring" apart the rear triangle of a frame made for the then-standard 126 mm spacing.

A conventional cup-and-cone hub tolerates some bearing misalignment, and in general, you can safely go up one size in spacing this way, just springing the frame apart. I can't give you an absolute guarantee that this won't cause damage, but the odds are very much in your favor.

Having to spring the frame every time you replace the wheel is inconvenient, especially if it has a quick-release axle .An internal-gear hub or sealed-bearing hub is very likely to be damaged if the dropouts are not parallel. In this case, cold setting is the better way to go.

If you're going up more than one size, say from 120 to 130, or from 126 to 135, you should definitely cold set the frame.

Spreading the Frame

There are a number of ways to do spread a frame. Probably the easiest way is to use a lever. A piece of 2 x 3 or 2 x 4 lumber, roughly 5-6 feet long works well for this:

1.Remove the wheels, fenders and any seat-tube mounted bottle cage.
2.Lay the bicycle on its side with the handlebars turned to face upward
3.If you are unsure about the strength of attachment or tubing at the chainstay or seatstay bridge, you might clamp them together with supports made by drilling a block of soft pine wood and then sawing it in half along the middle of the drill hole. This precaution is usually unnecessary, but it might be a good idea if you are making a major change in spacing.
4.Insert the lumber through the rear triangle, so that it goes underneath the upper rear forkend, and above the seat tube. The lumber should extend out past the rear end of the frame.
5.Place the far end of the lumber onto a chair, crate or other raised structure, so that only the head-tube/fork area of the bike is in contact with the floor.
6.Press down gently on the lumber where it crosses on top of the seat tube.
7.Measure the spacing to see if it has changed.
8.If the spacing hasn't changed, try again, pressing a little bit harder. Repeat until you get a result, applying a bit more force each time, until the spacing has increased by about half the total amount you are seeking.
9.Turn the bike over, and repeat for the other side.

In the illustrations below, the stays will be bent to the left (up in the photos) by pressing down on the end of the 2 x 4.

The other end of the 2 x 4 is on top of a stool. The longer the 2 x 4, the less force is needed.

The bike does not actually need to be stripped down this far, most parts can remain in place."

If you're not ham fisted cold setting a steel frame is NOT hard.

Cheers

On 2018-09-21 23:57, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, September 21, 2018 at 5:34:11 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
Snipped
He is a machinist and tool & die maker by trade, has a fully
equipped garage with lathe, mill and so on. He is building stuff
for his various vehicles all the time and made a couple of parts
for my MTB so I could build a sturdy rack.

120mm is a pain though, 10mm is a lot of widening. Looks like this
one can be shortened by grinding off the outer cog:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Shimano-TZ3...4/322007138705


Snipped

Is he going to grind down the body too?

He should read Sheldon Brown:
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/speeds.html and
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/freewheels.html

"The freewheel threading on these older hubs is generally
interchangeable except for some very old French units. If you go from
a 5-speed freewheel to a 6- or 7-speed freewheel, you will usually
need to add some spacers to the right end of the axle between the
cone and the locknut. Once you have done this, you'll also need to
re-dish the wheel to bring the rim back to the centerline. You may
need to re-space the frame if you have added spacers to the axle. See
my Frame Spacing Article for details on this."


Right. I also had to re-dish my rear wheel after UG freehubs were no
longer available. It wasn't fun but I got it all done in under an hour
including replacing the freehub.


"How Many Speeds?


Doesn't matter. Actually, the less speeds the better.


The first multiple-speed freewheels had 3 sprockets, using the
traditional 1/8" chain.


Well, the bike isn't quite that old :-)

BTW, the first ones were even simpler. They had one cog on either side
and you had to reverse the whole wheel to "shift".


In the 1950s, narrower 3/32" sprockets and chains were introduced,
permitting the move to 4-sprocket freewheels within the then-standard
114 mm (4 1/2") frame spacing 5 Speeds In the late 1950s, spacing was
widened to 120 mm to permit the use of 5-speed freewheels. This
required adding spacers to the right-hand end of the axle to keep the
chain from rubbing on the frame. The added spacers required
additional dish to the spokes, causing wheels to become somewhat
weaker. 6 Speeds In the 1970s, there was a move toward 6-speed
freewheels. These were of two types:

"Standard" spaced 6 speeds had sprocket-to-sprocket spacing the same
as the existing 5 speeds, around 5.5 mm

Standard spaced 6-speeds required increasing the frame spacing to 126
mm, aggravating the problems introduced with the move to 5-speed, but
still providing satisfactory service in most cases.

'"Ultra Six ®"' spaced 6 speeds used a closer spacing, around 5 mm.
This permitted an Ultra Six ® freewheel to directly replace a
standard 5-speed unit on a 120 mm hub. The key to making this work
was the use of a narrower chain. The interior width of the chain was
the same as always, but the new narrower chains used shorter rivets,
so the ends of the rivets didn't protrude past the outer chain
plates, as the rivets in traditional chains did.

7 Speeds In the 1980s, these two approaches were combined to create
7-speed freewheels, with 5 mm ("Ultra") spacing that would fit the
same 126 mm hubs as "standard" 6-speeds."


My bike had 6-speed yet is 126mm. Soon I will have to bend that open to
130mm to accommodate a new wheel set. It is quite possible that my
friend's Peugeot is still 120mm and that'll be a stretch.


So, to cold set a steel frame you only need to move each dropout 3mm.
That's not hard to do and Sheldon tells you how to do it easily.

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html

"Do You Need To Permanently Spread Your Frame?

Ideally, the frame spacing should exactly match the hub spacing. This
makes for easiest wheel replacement. In practice, however, there's a
fair amount of latitude in fit. In fact, when the first 130 mm
8-speed hubs were introduced, they had locknuts with beveled sides,
so that you could "spring" apart the rear triangle of a frame made
for the then-standard 126 mm spacing.


126mm to 130mm isn't too bad even if you don't true the parallelism of
the dropouts. The PX-10 might be 120mm.


A conventional cup-and-cone hub tolerates some bearing misalignment,
and in general, you can safely go up one size in spacing this way,
just springing the frame apart. I can't give you an absolute
guarantee that this won't cause damage, but the odds are very much in
your favor.


I'll bend mine up when the time comes though. Makes it easier to swap
the wheel.


Having to spring the frame every time you replace the wheel is
inconvenient, especially if it has a quick-release axle .An
internal-gear hub or sealed-bearing hub is very likely to be damaged
if the dropouts are not parallel. In this case, cold setting is the
better way to go.

If you're going up more than one size, say from 120 to 130, or from
126 to 135, you should definitely cold set the frame.

Spreading the Frame

There are a number of ways to do spread a frame. Probably the easiest
way is to use a lever. A piece of 2 x 3 or 2 x 4 lumber, roughly 5-6
feet long works well for this:

1.Remove the wheels, fenders and any seat-tube mounted bottle cage.
2.Lay the bicycle on its side with the handlebars turned to face
upward 3.If you are unsure about the strength of attachment or tubing
at the chainstay or seatstay bridge, you might clamp them together
with supports made by drilling a block of soft pine wood and then
sawing it in half along the middle of the drill hole. This precaution
is usually unnecessary, but it might be a good idea if you are making
a major change in spacing. 4.Insert the lumber through the rear
triangle, so that it goes underneath the upper rear forkend, and
above the seat tube. The lumber should extend out past the rear end
of the frame. 5.Place the far end of the lumber onto a chair, crate
or other raised structure, so that only the head-tube/fork area of
the bike is in contact with the floor. 6.Press down gently on the
lumber where it crosses on top of the seat tube. 7.Measure the
spacing to see if it has changed. 8.If the spacing hasn't changed,
try again, pressing a little bit harder. Repeat until you get a
result, applying a bit more force each time, until the spacing has
increased by about half the total amount you are seeking. 9.Turn the
bike over, and repeat for the other side.

In the illustrations below, the stays will be bent to the left (up in
the photos) by pressing down on the end of the 2 x 4.

The other end of the 2 x 4 is on top of a stool. The longer the 2 x
4, the less force is needed.

The bike does not actually need to be stripped down this far, most
parts can remain in place."

If you're not ham fisted cold setting a steel frame is NOT hard.


Certainly not for my MTB uddy with the PX-10. He also has all kinds of
clamping gear abnd stuff.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/