Invisible Cyclists in Solstice Dark

Jeff Williams Dec 24, 3:12 pm wrote:

No driver should drive at a speed such that he cannot stop within seeing
distance.

Similarly, every cyclist (or pedestrian or driver) should take reasonable steps to be visible.

Agreed re. drivers & cyclists, both are operating vehicles.
Not so sure about pedestrians. Last night I was walking along a lane
near home in the dark. The lane was part of a path that the Romans
recorded as being in use when they first reached NE England, so
pedestrians have been using it for at least 1800 years, quite possibly
a lot longer. Until well within the last 100 of these years, no-one
expected these pedestrians to be carrying lights. I'm not convinced
that they (inc. I) shoud be expected to start carrying lights now just
to allow the recent arrivals (drivers) to travel faster. There is 1700+
years of precedent for pedestrians being able to use the road without
having to carry a light.

Jon

wrote:
Jeff Williams Dec 24, 3:12 pm wrote:

No driver should drive at a speed such that he cannot stop within seeing
distance.

Similarly, every cyclist (or pedestrian or driver) should take reasonable steps to be visible.

Agreed re. drivers & cyclists, both are operating vehicles.

It seems to me to be the case that rear lights are to allow following
vehicles to go faster, and front lights are to warn those who may be
about to move into the path of an oncoming vehicle.

How can a cyclist render themself invisible when the driver will surely
not be able to see a clear road ahead? The law is quite clear in that
you drive within the limits of what you see to be clear, not what you
cannot see to be occupied.

...d

wrote:
Jeff Williams Dec 24, 3:12 pm wrote:


No driver should drive at a speed such that he cannot stop within seeing
distance.


Similarly, every cyclist (or pedestrian or driver) should take reasonable steps to be visible.


Agreed re. drivers & cyclists, both are operating vehicles.
Not so sure about pedestrians. Last night I was walking along a lane
near home in the dark. The lane was part of a path that the Romans
recorded as being in use when they first reached NE England, so
pedestrians have been using it for at least 1800 years, quite possibly
a lot longer. Until well within the last 100 of these years, no-one
expected these pedestrians to be carrying lights. I'm not convinced
that they (inc. I) shoud be expected to start carrying lights now just
to allow the recent arrivals (drivers) to travel faster. There is 1700+
years of precedent for pedestrians being able to use the road without
having to carry a light.

Jon


Interesting point.

I'm not suggesting that pedestrians be required to carry lights.
Especially not so that drivers can travel faster.

I am suggesting that reasonable pedestrians should, when dressing,
consider the effects of their choice of deportment on their safety.
Personal experience tells me that being visible to others reduces my
chances of someone else colliding with me. It's not a guarantee of no
collisions but it does help. If you have the choice of two articles of
clothing, one non-reflective and the other reflective, it does you no
harm to take the reflective option (and it just might be to your benefit).

I'm not certain that the past should be the sole determinant of the
present or the future. Things do change over time and we adapt to those
changes.

Jeff

Zoot Katz wrote:
I think cello-taping large denomination bills to frame tubes, fenders
and helmet would have the best chance for increasing ones visibility.
Most everyone is looking for money.


Ooo - you've given me a great idea for the next frame I wrap (previous
ones have been wood grain and rubber.)

Now, where can I get lots of old Yugoslav, Turkish, or Italian bills?

(My LBS occasionally displays a frame covered in stamps. Very pretty.)

On Fri, 23 Dec 2005 23:17:01 +0000, Rod King wrote:

Have you considered that if your colleague is driving so fast that they
cannot pick out a cyclist then the appropriate action may be to slow down
rather than moan about them wearing dark clothing.

When motorists say that a cyclist was invisible or they just didn't see
them it is usually because they aren't looking. What you are really
complaining about was that there was little time to take avoiding action
when seeing a cyclist. That is a car speed issue rather than a cyslist
visiblity issue. Cyclists in flourescent jackets enable drivers to go
faster. Hence when they do hit a cyclists theor pedestrian they are more
likely to kill them.

I believe that the responsibility is squarely with the motorist to conduct
their driving so that they can avoid any obstacles that are within their
vision. That means GO SLOWER.

You're right Rod, perhaps "dead right." If you're smart you'll put
some effort into being seen.

Matt O.

On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 04:35:43 +0000, D_Frumious_B wrote:

In rec.bicycles.misc Claire Petersky wrote:

Elisa, I've done this too -- while driving in the dark and passing a
pedestrian or a cyclist, made a note of what it is that I see first.
Usually it's some sort of reflective clothing. snip

I have often done this as well. The things I notice most often are
spoke and pedal reflectors. I'm sure that's because of the way they
move. The things I am least likely to notice are dark clothing and fixed
reflectors. I'm not sure I have EVER had my eye caught by one of those
useless front reflectors.

Other than a light, I'm not sure what's most effective for being seen from
the front. But from the rear or the side, moving reflectors on pedals,
clothing, or wheels are very effective indeed. Dots of reflective tape on
the insides of rims are very good. Shame on any company (Sidi!) who fails
to put reflective patches on their bike shoes. I don't understand why the
logos on designer wheel sets aren't reflective either, especially at the
prices they sell for.

I'd like to do a lighting workshop, take pictures of what works and
doesen't, and post it all on the web. I'm surprised no one has done it
already, especially the big safety/advocacy organizations like LAB.

Matt O.

Matt O'Toole wrote:


Other than a light, I'm not sure what's most effective for being seen from
the front. But from the rear or the side, moving reflectors on pedals,
clothing, or wheels are very effective indeed. Dots of reflective tape on
the insides of rims are very good. Shame on any company (Sidi!) who fails
to put reflective patches on their bike shoes. I don't understand why the
logos on designer wheel sets aren't reflective either, especially at the
prices they sell for.

I agree. I think the excuse would be that most companies selling bike
equipment are firmly in the "bikes are toys" camp. They literally
never imagine people actually riding their bikes unless they're
"training" - which means, of course, daylight, smooth roads, no rain,
full mating plumage, and 82% of maximum heart rate (or whatever the
training schedule calls for on that particular day).

I'd like to do a lighting workshop, take pictures of what works and
doesen't, and post it all on the web.

I've organized lighting workshops with my bike club. They're great
fun, and the attendees learn a lot. But your web idea is excellent.
(As others may know, there are a couple sites that show headlight
comparisons, but your idea is more thorough, I think.)

There are difficulties, though. In particular, static photos don't
accurately replicate the effect of moving, changing views at night.
ISTM it's difficult finding a way to have consistently proper exposure
settings, to evaluate even stationary situations.

Still, I'd love to see such a thing happen. www.bicyclinglife.com
would be happy to host the results, I'm sure.

I'm surprised no one has done it
already, especially the big safety/advocacy organizations like LAB.

I remain tremendously disappointed in the LAB during the past (at
least) ten years. They'd much rather lobby for a bike path than do
something practical for transportational cyclists. Your excellent idea
would, I'm afraid, just confuse them.

Seriously, I think this idea is excellent. How could we make it
happen?

- Frank Krygowski

Pedalites or Safeways Power Pedals are designed to replace.. pedals.
http://www.beseenonabike.com/shopuk/...951e dddc66a9

Simon Brooke wrote:
in message , Mike Kruger
') wrote:

www.BeSeenOnABike.com was born!


Hey, /anything/ which gets drivers attention has to be good, and these
appeal to kids who are otherwise too concerned about their street-cred
to switch their lights on. They are available over here, although I've
never seen them in a LBS.

However, they're not really visible from behind. Something similar for
pedals would be exceeding useful.

in message , Matt O'Toole
') wrote:

Other than a light, I'm not sure what's most effective for being seen
from
the front. But from the rear or the side, moving reflectors on pedals,
clothing, or wheels are very effective indeed. Dots of reflective tape
on
the insides of rims are very good. Shame on any company (Sidi!) who
fails
to put reflective patches on their bike shoes. I don't understand why
the logos on designer wheel sets aren't reflective either, especially
at the prices they sell for.

Two of my three pairs of SIDI shoes have retro-reflective areas on the
back. However, wheels and shoes designed for road racing are not
designed for commuting in the dark. If you want to go commuting in the
dark, you probably want kit designed for that purpose.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Tony Blair's epitaph, #1: Tony Blair lies here.
Tony Blair's epitaph, #2: Trust me.

In uk.rec.cycling Stephen Harding wrote:
On 23 Dec 2005 08:02:24 -0800, wrote:

So you cool young dudes and dudettes - put lights on your bike, and
carry a tiny LED light when you walk (if you ever do actually walk).
Use reflective stuff, too. It doesn't take much, but it takes
_something_ bright to be seen.

Besides my normal bike commute, I also walk my turbo-supercharged
Irish Setter in the morning before I pedal off to work, and in
the evening after my return from work. Perhaps 3-5 miles per day
(and maybe a 15 miler via MTB on a weekend!).

During the evening walk, I carry a small LED light and am constantly
surprised at how, even with a fairly bright light, I am apparently
not seen until the last minute as I and dog are preparing to dive
off the side of the road (a very dark, curvy road along the local
river course).

I once came across a horrible multiple car accident on the A1 at
night. The wreckage could only safely be negotiated slowly and
carefully. Since lots of folk were already helpiung the injured and
trying to clear the road, I legged off to mount advance warning by
waving a torch at oncoming drivers.

After being forced to dive into the hedgerow several times I concluded
that it couldn't possibly be that, wearing bright reflective gear,
standing in the middle of the road, and waving a powerful torch, I
wasn't been seen. I concluded that I was being seen, and being
identified as an annoying impediment to fast motorised progress who
needed to be taught a lesson about who the road belonged to.

--
Chris Malcolm +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]