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Where "Safety Inflation" leads



 
 
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  #31  
Old October 10th 19, 12:14 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
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Posts: 5,270
Default Where "Safety Inflation" leads

On Thursday, 10 October 2019 06:56:06 UTC-4, Sepp Ruf wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Wednesday, 9 October 2019 14:10:31 UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/9/2019 12:21 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:


I was riding along a side street in a city near to me and came to a
cross street that had a sign ONE WAY Bicycles Excepted. No to me
that's a pretty stupid thing to do since any automobile entering that
one way street would NOT be expecting a bicyclist to turn up that
street going what the automobile driver would think is the wrong way.
It's a brilliant setup for an accident waiting to happen.

Actually, that can work quite well. A contraflow bicycle lane is one
place that I approve of striping special lanes for bikes. Such lanes
can save considerable travel distance for cyclists, and if done
properly can be adequately safe. See
http://www.bikexprt.com/research/con...ngerichtet.htm for
example.

But the details have to be done right.
http://www.bikexprt.com/massfacil/ca...q/litlconc.htm


Warmies... they never think of a snow cover.

That one way road where bicycles are allowed to ride counter to traffic
flow is a narrow side street WITH NO bike lane. Just imagine it. You're
driving down this street and approaching the intersection when suddenly a
bicyclists turns left from that other street and is now on your right
side. You're not expecting a bicyclist to do that. It'd be bad enough in
daylight but it'd be a LOT WORSE at night especially if the bicyclist did
not have adequate lighting if they had any lighting at all. Like I said,
it's an accident waiting to happen.


FUD. Read Frank's first link. In "narrow side streets with no bike lane
markings," the accident tsunami expected by motorists and conservative
politics has not happened. Though admittedly, it might have something to do
with the European transportational cyclists' higher accident-avoidance
competence levels than in the second link (US university affiliated);-)


The streets shown in the images in Frank's first link have very good sight-lines compared to that street I saw. In addition to that the street I saw has shrubbery growing pretty close to the sidewalks/footpaths at the corner of the intersection which further limited the sight-line of both a motorist traveling down the one-way street and any bicyclist about to turn and ride counter-flow to the traffic on that side street. Due to that and also to the very low volume of bicycle traffic there, I still feel that this is an accident waiting to happen. Ditto for an area a number of kilometers from that location where there are no left turns allowed onto a busy main street EXCEPT for bicycles. Once again, motorists approaching from the opposite direction are not expecting a bicyclist to make a left turn in front of them and that's because motor vehicles are NOT allowed to make that left turn.

Cheers
Ads
  #32  
Old October 10th 19, 12:26 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Rolf Mantel[_2_]
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Posts: 267
Default Where "Safety Inflation" leads

Am 09.10.2019 um 18:21 schrieb Sir Ridesalot:
On Wednesday, 9 October 2019 09:44:51 UTC-4, Steve Weeks wrote:


Of course, it would also be nice to see some action on cars parked
in or driving down bike lanes, and other unsafe and illegal
practices. I'm not holding my breath. At least no one is snatching
my bike while I'm riding it!


I was riding along a side street in a city near to me and came to a
cross street that had a sign ONE WAY Bicycles Excepted. No to me
that's a pretty stupid thing to do since any automobile entering that
one way street would NOT be expecting a bicyclist to turn up that
street going what the automobile driver would think is the wrong way.
It's a brilliant setup for an accident waiting to happen.


In Germany, that's the most normal thing of the world. In Heidelberg,
we have a one-way street with 2,500 cyclists per day and direction, and
a few hundred cars per day.

Before introducing these streets, car-lovers moaned about the unsafe
operation of this but specifically in narrow one-lane streets there is
no problem at all:

the car driver is going 20 mph, sees an oncoming cyclist and pulls a
bit towards the right.

I believe that was not a single head-on accident reported in the 15
years this has been possible in Germany.

In the last few years, they tend to mark a short contraflow lane at some
junctions, e.g. https://goo.gl/maps/Ue7HRi26vBqdLyPM8.
  #33  
Old October 10th 19, 01:56 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Steve Weeks
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Posts: 97
Default Where "Safety Inflation" leads

On Wednesday, October 9, 2019 at 8:22:24 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:

"We're from The Government (and) We're here to help you."


One of the three least credible sentences in the English language. The others:
"Of course I'll respect you in the morning."
"The check is in the mail."
:-)
  #34  
Old October 10th 19, 03:18 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
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Posts: 9,477
Default Where "Safety Inflation" leads

On 10/10/2019 4:26 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:

snip

In Germany, that's the most normal thing of the world.Â* In Heidelberg,
we have a one-way street with 2,500 cyclists per day and direction, and
a few hundred cars per day.


I've seen the same thing throughout Europe. it works fine. I don't
recall seeing that in the U.S. but I'm sure it exists.

We do have one tunnel that is controlled by traffic lights and it
alternates direction for cars, but bicycles can go through in both
directions no matter which direction the cars are going
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baker%E2%80%93Barry_Tunnel. Until the
Park Service took the area over from the military bicycles were not
allowed in the tunnel at all though bicycles routinely used it
(sometimes the MPs would wait at the other end to cite cyclists).
  #35  
Old October 10th 19, 03:39 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default Where "Safety Inflation" leads

On 10/10/2019 7:26 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 09.10.2019 um 18:21 schrieb Sir Ridesalot:
On Wednesday, 9 October 2019 09:44:51 UTC-4, Steve WeeksÂ* wrote:


Of course, it would also be nice to see some action on cars parked
in or driving down bike lanes, and other unsafe and illegal
practices. I'm not holding my breath. At least no one is snatching
my bike while I'm riding it!


I was riding along a side street in a city near to me and came to a
cross street that had a sign ONE WAY Bicycles Excepted. No to me
that's a pretty stupid thing to do since any automobile entering that
one way street would NOT be expecting a bicyclist to turn up that
street going what the automobile driver would think is the wrong way.
It's a brilliant setup for an accident waiting to happen.


In Germany, that's the most normal thing of the world.Â* In Heidelberg,
we have a one-way street with 2,500 cyclists per day and direction, and
a few hundred cars per day.

Before introducing these streets, car-lovers moaned about the unsafe
operation of this but specifically in narrow one-lane streets there is
no problem at all:

the car driver is going 20 mph, sees an oncoming cyclist and pulls a
bit towards the right.

I believe that was not a single head-on accident reported in the 15
years this has been possible in Germany.

In the last few years, they tend to mark a short contraflow lane at some
junctions, e.g. https://goo.gl/maps/Ue7HRi26vBqdLyPM8.


Yes, as I said, the details have to be done right.

Locally, we have two stretches of one-way road in our metropark that
feature contraflow bicycle lanes. Those lanes are very useful,
preventing miles of detours. But the landscape architect that designed
them has been on a bicycle only once since he was 12 years old. He's
made every mistake in the book, plus invented some new ones. And he's
adamantly refused to allow any actual bicyclists to consult on the
design. (We're finally getting some of the mistakes fixed.)

When bike facility designers are ignorant of bicycling, you get
weirdness, chaos and danger. For example:

http://wcc.crankfoot.xyz/facility-of-the-month/book.htm

and

http://wcc.crankfoot.xyz/facility-of...h/July2017.htm

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #36  
Old October 10th 19, 03:51 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
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Posts: 5,270
Default Where "Safety Inflation" leads

On Thursday, 10 October 2019 10:39:07 UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/10/2019 7:26 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 09.10.2019 um 18:21 schrieb Sir Ridesalot:
On Wednesday, 9 October 2019 09:44:51 UTC-4, Steve WeeksÂ* wrote:


Of course, it would also be nice to see some action on cars parked
in or driving down bike lanes, and other unsafe and illegal
practices. I'm not holding my breath. At least no one is snatching
my bike while I'm riding it!

I was riding along a side street in a city near to me and came to a
cross street that had a sign ONE WAY Bicycles Excepted. No to me
that's a pretty stupid thing to do since any automobile entering that
one way street would NOT be expecting a bicyclist to turn up that
street going what the automobile driver would think is the wrong way.
It's a brilliant setup for an accident waiting to happen.


In Germany, that's the most normal thing of the world.Â* In Heidelberg,
we have a one-way street with 2,500 cyclists per day and direction, and
a few hundred cars per day.

Before introducing these streets, car-lovers moaned about the unsafe
operation of this but specifically in narrow one-lane streets there is
no problem at all:

the car driver is going 20 mph, sees an oncoming cyclist and pulls a
bit towards the right.

I believe that was not a single head-on accident reported in the 15
years this has been possible in Germany.

In the last few years, they tend to mark a short contraflow lane at some
junctions, e.g. https://goo.gl/maps/Ue7HRi26vBqdLyPM8.


Yes, as I said, the details have to be done right.

Locally, we have two stretches of one-way road in our metropark that
feature contraflow bicycle lanes. Those lanes are very useful,
preventing miles of detours. But the landscape architect that designed
them has been on a bicycle only once since he was 12 years old. He's
made every mistake in the book, plus invented some new ones. And he's
adamantly refused to allow any actual bicyclists to consult on the
design. (We're finally getting some of the mistakes fixed.)

When bike facility designers are ignorant of bicycling, you get
weirdness, chaos and danger. For example:

http://wcc.crankfoot.xyz/facility-of-the-month/book.htm

and

http://wcc.crankfoot.xyz/facility-of...h/July2017.htm

--
- Frank Krygowski


Can't find any bad designs in the good old U.S.A.?

Cheers
  #37  
Old October 10th 19, 06:25 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joy Beeson
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Posts: 1,638
Default Where "Safety Inflation" leads

On Thu, 10 Oct 2019 07:51:45 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

Can't find any bad designs in the good old U.S.A.?


I can just look out my window. What we don't have is a dedicated
collector of photographs.

Looking for facilities marked "bike friendly" by the League Against
Bicycling would be a good start.

Adventure Cycling is taking over some of the responsibilities that
L.A.B. repudiated.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

  #38  
Old October 10th 19, 08:06 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
Default Where "Safety Inflation" leads

On Thursday, October 10, 2019 at 10:25:37 AM UTC-7, Joy Beeson wrote:
On Thu, 10 Oct 2019 07:51:45 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

Can't find any bad designs in the good old U.S.A.?


I can just look out my window. What we don't have is a dedicated
collector of photographs.

Looking for facilities marked "bike friendly" by the League Against
Bicycling would be a good start.

Adventure Cycling is taking over some of the responsibilities that
L.A.B. repudiated.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/


Recently, we've had an outbreak of "safety pickets," e.g.: https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/s...20posts_SF.jpg
(that's in SF -- ours are more closely placed).

So, as I mentioned above, they're putting these thing in places that prevent the buses from pulling to the curb, which creates danger chutes with passengers wandering across the bicycle traffic lane to get on and off the baus.. Last night, I was headed down one of those chutes and a car was pulled across it and stopped, waiting to enter a parking garage. A rat maze with a stopper in it -- with really no safety benefit since a car can roll right over the plastic posts/pickets The existing bike lanes were perfectly fine without additional obstacles. It also makes cleaning impossible, and even before heavy leaf season or snow and gravel season, these little chutes are filling with crap.

-- Jay Beattie.

  #39  
Old October 11th 19, 09:01 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Posts: 10,422
Default Where "Safety Inflation" leads

On Thursday, October 10, 2019 at 8:06:07 PM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, October 10, 2019 at 10:25:37 AM UTC-7, Joy Beeson wrote:
On Thu, 10 Oct 2019 07:51:45 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

Can't find any bad designs in the good old U.S.A.?


I can just look out my window. What we don't have is a dedicated
collector of photographs.

Looking for facilities marked "bike friendly" by the League Against
Bicycling would be a good start.

Adventure Cycling is taking over some of the responsibilities that
L.A.B. repudiated.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/


Recently, we've had an outbreak of "safety pickets," e.g.: https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/s...0posts_SF..jpg
(that's in SF -- ours are more closely placed).

So, as I mentioned above, they're putting these thing in places that prevent the buses from pulling to the curb, which creates danger chutes with passengers wandering across the bicycle traffic lane to get on and off the baus. Last night, I was headed down one of those chutes and a car was pulled across it and stopped, waiting to enter a parking garage. A rat maze with a stopper in it -- with really no safety benefit since a car can roll right over the plastic posts/pickets The existing bike lanes were perfectly fine without additional obstacles. It also makes cleaning impossible, and even before heavy leaf season or snow and gravel season, these little chutes are filling with crap.

-- Jay Beattie.


There's an art supplies store that I patronise in a mall across the road from the hospital. One day I was standing in a window of the hospital with a young surgeon watching the traffic on the main road out of the city between the mall and the hospital and I made some remark like, "Encouraging to see so many people on bicycles." He didn't agree: "Organ donors," he said. When I got down at ground level, I inspected the cycle lane markings. They came from a roundabout alongside the pavement/sidewalk, then swung out before a bus stop across two lanes of fast-moving traffic to continue between the mass of opposing traffic with no divider to the lights where the bicyclist had a choice: turn across three lines of traffic to the mall, turn across three lanes of traffic to the hospital, or continue across the busy junction towards where the bicycle lane just ceases in the middle of opposing lanes of fast-moving cars before the road narrows drastically; this last matters because many of the cyclists are students of a college to which the turnoff is further down the now narrow road. The merit of the system is that it keeps the bicyclists separated from the passengers alighting at the busy bus stops (with their own lane) either side of the road between the mall and the hospital.

It's a solution very far from ideal but it is difficult to envisage an alternative that won't require taking someone's land, either the hospital or the mall, to build flyovers that would be expensive and ugly and probably raise other unforeseen hazards. It is also worth noting that, according to bus drivers I've spoken to, no cyclists use a flyover elsewhere that was apparently built especially for cyclists and pedestrians (who do use it) to cross safely over a fast (100kph with traffic at 125kph) bypass that links national roads. I've seen this flyover and I wouldn't use it either: too steep at both ends, which very likely would make a bicycle a menace to the pedestrians -- mothers or au pairs with prams -- that were on it when I inspected it.

Andre Jute
Some bicycle facilities are an argument for cars
  #40  
Old October 11th 19, 04:49 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
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Posts: 9,477
Default Where "Safety Inflation" leads

On 10/10/2019 12:06 PM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

So, as I mentioned above, they're putting these thing in places that prevent the buses from pulling to the curb, which creates danger chutes with passengers wandering across the bicycle traffic lane to get on and off the baus. Last night, I was headed down one of those chutes and a car was pulled across it and stopped, waiting to enter a parking garage. A rat maze with a stopper in it -- with really no safety benefit since a car can roll right over the plastic posts/pickets The existing bike lanes were perfectly fine without additional obstacles. It also makes cleaning impossible, and even before heavy leaf season or snow and gravel season, these little chutes are filling with crap.


There are machines designed to clean protected bike lanes. Clearly
Portland hasn't purchased these yet.
 




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