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Wider tires, All-road bikes



 
 
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  #21  
Old January 23rd 19, 03:51 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 7,150
Default Wider tires, All-road bikes

On 1/22/2019 4:54 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, January 22, 2019 at 1:14:45 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Tuesday, January 22, 2019 at 1:12:07 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:

This is one-step removed from the tweed ride. Look at these guys (from Jan's site): https://janheine.files.wordpress.com...pg?w=640&h=518

WTF is the deal with handlebar bags these days? One water bottle and a canvas handlebar bag? If you can stop for water, you can stop for whatever crap you have in the handlebar bag. The last thing I want riding on gravel is a bulky canvas handlebar bag to add swing weight to the bars. Mandatory wool jerseys and dynos. Gak. It all screams for attention.


:-) Yet if they were in multi-colored lycra jerseys with team and
product logos, they wouldn't be screaming for attention? Hah.


Not nearly as self-consciously. It's like they're making a point.


I don't know how you can say that. You're judging a lot from one photo
plus lots of imagination.

I'm not going to say that those guys didn't make their choices based
on the fashion in their peer group. That happens with some of the
people in any peer group. But it's not a given. FWIW, I started
using handlebar bags in about 1975 and have used them ever since.
I don't stop to drink from my water bottle, and I don't usually stop
to take off my jacket, put on my hat, look at a map, grab a camera,
grab a granola bar, etc. All that stuff is in my handlebar bag
and easily accessible.


All that stuff is in my jersey pocket. I will ride 100 miles with my reduced wallet, a couple Cliff bars, two GUs, my iPhone and that's it. If I need more, I stop.


OK, different styles - for example, I can't imagine bothering to reduce
my wallet for a ride. How much do a few credit cards weigh?

My bag normally carries my wallet, my keys, my phone, tube, tools, patch
kit, spare cable, something to eat (maybe raisins or a banana, maybe a
granola bar or two), a few paper towels for wiping sweator blowing my
nose or wiping hands after mechanical work, a monocular, a lightweight
cable lock, often a couple maps, and maybe one or two other small things.

But the big advantage is simply capacity to carry things. I can stop at
a store on the way home and not worry about how to lug stuff. It makes
the bike much more versatile and useful. I can even dress in layers,
like a sweater or arm warmers plus a jacket, and have places to store
those I discard.

I can even put my rain jacket or vest in a jersey pocket. And if I wanted a bag, I would get a bigger seat pack. Handlebar bags add mass to steering, they rattle, etc., etc.


Well, mine don't rattle, and I've never noticed any steering effect. But
I'm not much of a connoisseur of bike handling.

I don't care what tires a person uses either, but when you claim that fat tires roll better and are faster than lighter, narrower tires (with their "placebo" effect (his words)), you're riding on thin ice. If that were true, the entire pro peleton would by riding 45mm tires.


Well, I think the big change happened when Heine tested a bunch of tires
on an asphalt track, instead of on steel drums. That pointed out that
the suspension effect is important, more than most people previously
thought.

But you don't think the pros are influenced by what the other pros are
using?

Seems to me like racing tires have gotten wider in recent years. So were
the 19s really faster back when they were common? Has something since
changed so wider ones are now faster? I doubt it.

Besides, what's best for the pros is not best for most cyclists, or even
most "fast recreational riders" (as Buycycling described its target
market). I think racing equipment is even less appropriate for the
average avid enthusiast - that is, the people who really like riding
bikes, who ride several times per week and do 30 to 50 mile rides at the
drop of a hat, but not pegging their heart rates all the time.

I'm old and slow now, but in the old days I would ride a century or more
accidentally with friends - no planning, no preparation, just a long
ride at a brisk pace and "Hey, we're over 90 miles!" Many of my friends
were on real racing bikes, although few of them actually raced. I'd be
on the touring bike I still like best. It worked fine.

But I'm not pushing 45mm tires. The widest I ever used (aside from the
mountain bike) were 37s, and that was only for some touring. Still, I
wouldn't be surprised to see 32 becoming a popular width for high-end
bikes in a few years. We'll see.

I think Heine found a niche and is working it as hard as he can. Next thing will be the superiority of toe clips and straps and nail-on cleats with free-range cow leather soles.


Oh, he's definitely found a niche that works for him. And for the
record, I think some of his ideas are either magical thinking or weird
merchandising. Same for Grant Petersen.

But I won't complain about those guys getting people to pay for
nostalgic technology - at least, not while others are getting fat,
out-of-shape 70-year-olds to pay for super-light carbon fiber delicates
with space age shifting mechanisms.

--
- Frank Krygowski
Ads
  #22  
Old January 23rd 19, 04:02 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 7,150
Default Wider tires, All-road bikes

On 1/22/2019 10:33 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jan 2019 13:19:29 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

And in his blog posts, he's
indicated a fair amount of helmet skepticism. But one sits on his
head in almost all photos.


The helmets in the photos protect him from idiots.


In a sense, that might be true.

This article
https://cyclingtips.com/2018/11/comm...a-bike-helmet/
by a former editor of Bicycling magazine mentions the fact that any time
they published a photo of a rider without a helmet, they'd get an
avalanche of complaints.

Helmeteers are weird.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #23  
Old January 23rd 19, 06:51 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 372
Default Wider tires, All-road bikes

On Wednesday, January 23, 2019 at 12:53:26 AM UTC+1, Doug Cimperman wrote:
On 1/22/2019 10:17 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Here's Jan Heine's latest on wide tire road bikes, or "All-Road Bikes."

https://janheine.wordpress.com/

I guess that link takes you to the most recent edition of his blog, so
when this post gets old you'll probably have to scan downwards.

- Frank Krygowski

Wider tires is something that could help a lot of 'normal' riders, but
running fat(ter) tires also requires running fatter rims for them to
work well--and most people still don't bother with that part.

I've seen online a lot where someone says that they have a bike with
30mm tires and ask if they can put ~45's or whatever on it... -and
everyone else says "yea sure, if the tires will fit in the
frame/fenders". And it's true that it works, but it works lousy. I'm
usually the only one pointing out that you don't get the full benefit of
fatter tires unless you move to wider rims as well.

It goes something like this:
1. The only reason to run fatter tires is to run them at lower
pressures, to absorb road bumps better.
2. But if you get wide tires and mount them on narrow rims, then you
have to keep them inflated to fairly-high pressures to keep them from
squirming and folding over in turns.
3. So if you mount a fat tire on a skinny rim, all you end up with is a
much heavier, hard-riding tire. The fatter tire's greater cushioning
ability is lost with the raised inflation pressure that becomes necessary.



I totally agree. A wider tire on the same rim inflated to same pressure (that is what most people do) results in a much harsher ride. I see no point in getting wider than 25 mm tires on rims normally used for road bikes.


As for Mr Heine: I consider him to still be green, as he hasn't
graduated to recumbents yet.



Who is this Mr Heine?

Lou
  #24  
Old January 23rd 19, 07:40 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 372
Default Wider tires, All-road bikes

On Wednesday, January 23, 2019 at 5:02:48 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/22/2019 10:33 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jan 2019 13:19:29 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

And in his blog posts, he's
indicated a fair amount of helmet skepticism. But one sits on his
head in almost all photos.


The helmets in the photos protect him from idiots.


In a sense, that might be true.



That was true in case of my last crash 2 months ago because of an idiot coming out of the bushes in the dark. I was not wearing a helmet. I can't remember anything about the crash, going to hospital in an ambulance and most of the treatment in the hospital. I didn't passed out but just can't remember anything for 3 hours. Very weird. Still figuring out if I have to reconsider my helmet position as I realized that I can't anticipate all the stupid actions of other people but on the other hand I didn't die. For the time being I wear a helmet every ride now as I still have short moments of dizziness. YMMV.

Lou
  #25  
Old January 23rd 19, 05:45 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 7,150
Default Wider tires, All-road bikes

On 1/23/2019 2:40 AM, wrote:
On Wednesday, January 23, 2019 at 5:02:48 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/22/2019 10:33 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jan 2019 13:19:29 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

And in his blog posts, he's
indicated a fair amount of helmet skepticism. But one sits on his
head in almost all photos.

The helmets in the photos protect him from idiots.


In a sense, that might be true.



That was true in case of my last crash 2 months ago because of an idiot coming out of the bushes in the dark. I was not wearing a helmet. I can't remember anything about the crash, going to hospital in an ambulance and most of the treatment in the hospital. I didn't passed out but just can't remember anything for 3 hours. Very weird. Still figuring out if I have to reconsider my helmet position as I realized that I can't anticipate all the stupid actions of other people but on the other hand I didn't die. For the time being I wear a helmet every ride now as I still have short moments of dizziness. YMMV.


A lot of helmet sales are driven by such anecdotes - things like "I
didn't wear one and I got hurt" as above, or "Good thing I wore one or I
would have been hurt." Not to mention the "He was not wearing a helmet"
statements when a cyclist gets totally flattened by a turning truck.

Funny thing is, any dispassionate look at the sources of brain injuries
proves that there are far, far more anecdotes available from pedestrians
and motorists. For pedestrians, that's true even per mile traveled.

Again, in the U.S., bicyclists are only 0.6% of brain injury fatalities.
Pedestrians are far more and motorists even more. But those groups
don't generate helmet anecdotes. Why? Because nobody has chosen to sell
or promote helmets for walkers or motorists.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #26  
Old January 23rd 19, 06:10 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 372
Default Wider tires, All-road bikes

On Wednesday, January 23, 2019 at 6:45:44 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/23/2019 2:40 AM, wrote:
On Wednesday, January 23, 2019 at 5:02:48 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/22/2019 10:33 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jan 2019 13:19:29 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

And in his blog posts, he's
indicated a fair amount of helmet skepticism. But one sits on his
head in almost all photos.

The helmets in the photos protect him from idiots.

In a sense, that might be true.



That was true in case of my last crash 2 months ago because of an idiot coming out of the bushes in the dark. I was not wearing a helmet. I can't remember anything about the crash, going to hospital in an ambulance and most of the treatment in the hospital. I didn't passed out but just can't remember anything for 3 hours. Very weird. Still figuring out if I have to reconsider my helmet position as I realized that I can't anticipate all the stupid actions of other people but on the other hand I didn't die. For the time being I wear a helmet every ride now as I still have short moments of dizziness. YMMV.


A lot of helmet sales are driven by such anecdotes - things like "I
didn't wear one and I got hurt" as above, or "Good thing I wore one or I
would have been hurt." Not to mention the "He was not wearing a helmet"
statements when a cyclist gets totally flattened by a turning truck.

Funny thing is, any dispassionate look at the sources of brain injuries
proves that there are far, far more anecdotes available from pedestrians
and motorists. For pedestrians, that's true even per mile traveled.

Again, in the U.S., bicyclists are only 0.6% of brain injury fatalities.
Pedestrians are far more and motorists even more. But those groups
don't generate helmet anecdotes. Why? Because nobody has chosen to sell
or promote helmets for walkers or motorists.


--
- Frank Krygowski


Frank I didn't got hurt because I didn't wore a helmet. I got hurt because of a crash that I apparently could not avoid despite being very careful, wearing conspicuous clothes and running top of the line lights. Up to now my algorithm to wear a helmet was group rides, off road rides and rides in the mountains/hills. On all other rides I didn't wear a helmet. For the time being I do now wear a helmet on my winter evening rides in the dark. I'm not telling anyone what to do and as always YMMV.
  #27  
Old January 23rd 19, 08:23 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
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Posts: 4,129
Default Wider tires, All-road bikes

On Wednesday, January 23, 2019 at 1:10:29 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Wednesday, January 23, 2019 at 6:45:44 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/23/2019 2:40 AM, wrote:
On Wednesday, January 23, 2019 at 5:02:48 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/22/2019 10:33 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jan 2019 13:19:29 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

And in his blog posts, he's
indicated a fair amount of helmet skepticism. But one sits on his
head in almost all photos.

The helmets in the photos protect him from idiots.

In a sense, that might be true.



That was true in case of my last crash 2 months ago because of an idiot coming out of the bushes in the dark. I was not wearing a helmet. I can't remember anything about the crash, going to hospital in an ambulance and most of the treatment in the hospital. I didn't passed out but just can't remember anything for 3 hours. Very weird. Still figuring out if I have to reconsider my helmet position as I realized that I can't anticipate all the stupid actions of other people but on the other hand I didn't die. For the time being I wear a helmet every ride now as I still have short moments of dizziness. YMMV.


A lot of helmet sales are driven by such anecdotes - things like "I
didn't wear one and I got hurt" as above, or "Good thing I wore one or I
would have been hurt." Not to mention the "He was not wearing a helmet"
statements when a cyclist gets totally flattened by a turning truck.

Funny thing is, any dispassionate look at the sources of brain injuries
proves that there are far, far more anecdotes available from pedestrians
and motorists. For pedestrians, that's true even per mile traveled.

Again, in the U.S., bicyclists are only 0.6% of brain injury fatalities..
Pedestrians are far more and motorists even more. But those groups
don't generate helmet anecdotes. Why? Because nobody has chosen to sell
or promote helmets for walkers or motorists.


--
- Frank Krygowski


Frank I didn't got hurt because I didn't wore a helmet. I got hurt because of a crash that I apparently could not avoid despite being very careful, wearing conspicuous clothes and running top of the line lights. Up to now my algorithm to wear a helmet was group rides, off road rides and rides in the mountains/hills. On all other rides I didn't wear a helmet. For the time being I do now wear a helmet on my winter evening rides in the dark. I'm not telling anyone what to do and as always YMMV.


When it comes to helmets Frank's mileage most definitely varies and he's strongly anti-helmet. No matter what a helmet does in a crash Frank will trot out his statistics about traumatic brain injuries. A number of years ago I crashed with such force that my head bounced twice on the asphalt. Funny thing though, I didn't get any scrapes or any other injuries to my head. I was wearing a helmet that day and I'k glad I did. I don't give a flying f*** what people say about MY accident. the simple fact is that I was able to pick up my bicycle, check it for damage and then continue my ride without even needing first aid for head cuts/scrapes. If people want to wear a helmet then that should be up to them not some person thousands of mile/kilometers away.

I'm glad you weren't injured worse.

BTW, another reason I like a helmet is because the mirror on it lets me ride with or without sunglasses and I have the mirror with me no which of my bicycles I ride. Ditto for external battery light versus dynamo lights. What works for one may NOT meet the needs/wants of others.

Cheers
  #28  
Old January 23rd 19, 09:45 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 7,150
Default Wider tires, All-road bikes

On 1/23/2019 3:23 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Wednesday, January 23, 2019 at 1:10:29 PM UTC-5, wrote:

When it comes to helmets Frank's mileage most definitely varies and he's strongly anti-helmet. No matter what a helmet does in a crash Frank will trot out his statistics about traumatic brain injuries. A number of years ago I crashed with such force that my head bounced twice on the asphalt. Funny thing though, I didn't get any scrapes or any other injuries to my head. I was wearing a helmet that day and I'k glad I did. I don't give a flying f*** what people say about MY accident. the simple fact is that I was able to pick up my bicycle, check it for damage and then continue my ride without even needing first aid for head cuts/scrapes. If people want to wear a helmet then that should be up to them not some person thousands of mile/kilometers away.

I'm glad you weren't injured worse.

BTW, another reason I like a helmet is because the mirror on it lets me ride with or without sunglasses and I have the mirror with me no which of my bicycles I ride. Ditto for external battery light versus dynamo lights. What works for one may NOT meet the needs/wants of others.


I use eyeglass mirrors that fit on my normal glasses. My glasses darken
in sunlight, so I don't bother with sunglasses.

I've made my own mirrors since the 1970s, each one from a few inches of
wire plus about two square cm of plastic mirror material. They weigh
about 2 grams, according to the electronic scale I was recently given. I
keep one in each handlebar bag.

So, no hat required.

And I agree, if people want to wear a helmet, it should be up to them.
(And ideally, they'd make that decision based on actual facts, not fear
mongering and exaggerations, but I suppose that's fantasy.)

But please, re-read the article at
https://cyclingtips.com/2018/11/comm...a-bike-helmet/

Note where he talks about the "the trolling, the well-meaning but
ill-informed questions, the institutional forces that try to shame,
marginalize, or even criminalize the act of choosing to ride without a
helmet."

Or "in the past five months, I’ve been subjected to hundreds of
interactions in which my decision has been challenged."

Or "I’ve been hassled and trolled on social media about it; I’ve been
hollered at by drivers on the roads of Los Angeles. I’m constantly
compelled to defend the logic of something that I believe should not
require a defense."

Or "When I was editor-in-chief of Bicycling, the world’s largest cycling
magazine, I knew that any photograph of a rider without a helmet on
would precipitate a firestorm of shouty criticism, as if the brand was
imperilling bike culture simply by documenting how a fair number of
people ride a bike."

And think about the mandatory helmet laws. (My wife and I were stopped
by a cop in Canada.)

So be honest. It's not the helmet skeptics who are trying to force their
choice on others.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #29  
Old January 23rd 19, 10:14 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 3,830
Default Wider tires, All-road bikes

On Tuesday, January 22, 2019 at 10:51:28 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Wednesday, January 23, 2019 at 12:53:26 AM UTC+1, Doug Cimperman wrote:
On 1/22/2019 10:17 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Here's Jan Heine's latest on wide tire road bikes, or "All-Road Bikes.."

https://janheine.wordpress.com/

I guess that link takes you to the most recent edition of his blog, so
when this post gets old you'll probably have to scan downwards.

- Frank Krygowski

Wider tires is something that could help a lot of 'normal' riders, but
running fat(ter) tires also requires running fatter rims for them to
work well--and most people still don't bother with that part.

I've seen online a lot where someone says that they have a bike with
30mm tires and ask if they can put ~45's or whatever on it... -and
everyone else says "yea sure, if the tires will fit in the
frame/fenders". And it's true that it works, but it works lousy. I'm
usually the only one pointing out that you don't get the full benefit of
fatter tires unless you move to wider rims as well.

It goes something like this:
1. The only reason to run fatter tires is to run them at lower
pressures, to absorb road bumps better.
2. But if you get wide tires and mount them on narrow rims, then you
have to keep them inflated to fairly-high pressures to keep them from
squirming and folding over in turns.
3. So if you mount a fat tire on a skinny rim, all you end up with is a
much heavier, hard-riding tire. The fatter tire's greater cushioning
ability is lost with the raised inflation pressure that becomes necessary.



I totally agree. A wider tire on the same rim inflated to same pressure (that is what most people do) results in a much harsher ride. I see no point in getting wider than 25 mm tires on rims normally used for road bikes.


As for Mr Heine: I consider him to still be green, as he hasn't
graduated to recumbents yet.



Who is this Mr Heine?

Lou


https://janheine.wordpress.com/ He's a guy developing a market niche. He sells Compass products and is now making Rene Herse products under a some sort of agreement with the Herse estate. https://janheine.wordpress.com/2017/...y-of-function/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9_Herse

Probably made in the same Chinese factories as Velo Orange: https://www.compasscycle.com/product...ry/rene-herse/ WTF? $550 for a triple crank? Yikes.

I remember back in the mid to late '70s going to the Wheelsmith shop in Palo Alto. It was hardly more than a shed, but it had all these old bikes out front -- including a few Rene Herses with odd-ball derailleur systems and old rusted parts. It was the one and only time a bike seemed creepy to me.. https://tinyurl.com/yblk6cqy A few hundred yards away was Palo Alto Bikes with Tom Richey building modern frames. I liked fast-back stays, although some of his weren't all that well executed, IMO. At the time, my index frame for awesome was the California Masi. https://belle-macchine.com/2014/03/1...gc-california/ Then I ran into a Bruce Gordon http://www.classicrendezvous.com/USA...lman-Jones.htm
That renewed my interest in fast-back stays. Caylor's fast-back stays were nice, too. Back then, nobody was impressed that you wore wool or rode a steel frame. Maybe you could be more cool than the next guy by drilling a few more holes in your crank.

-- Jay Beattie.

  #30  
Old January 23rd 19, 10:50 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Zen Cycle
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Posts: 82
Default Wider tires, All-road bikes

On Tuesday, January 22, 2019 at 6:25:05 PM UTC-5, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jan 2019 12:07:50 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot

I'm beginning to see bikes over here with what appear to be 4 inch, or
maybe larger, tires. They look much like a hard tail MTB but with much
wider forks.


Fatbikes have been out for a while now. The only thing that irritates me about them is that they bitch about 'skinny' MTBs riding on "their" trails and leaving ruts - ignoring the fact that the trails they ride are usually multi-use, and get beat to **** by walkers, snowshoes, xc skis, and horses. I call them "fatbike fashionistas".


A couple of months ago I passed an immensely fat chap riding one and I
remember I thought at the time that perhaps the wider tires would
support more weight :-)


Cheers,
John B.


 




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