Disk brakes might be useful

On 2/6/19 7:20 PM, Mark J. wrote:

snip

I've seen a lot of these things, mostly through negligence or
envelope-pushing.

On my neglected commuter bikes (clean 'em once a year, ride in routine
rain, short urban start-stop commute, replace every 20 years or so) I've
had one (rear!) rim fail at the brake track while riding, and replaced
at least 3-4 other seriously worn ones 'cause I didn't want to repeat
the experience.

On my "road" bikes, esp. the one that never saw damp pavement, the rims
hardly show wear at all.Â* Long rides in the country with few or no stop
signs will do that; brakes are rarely used on those bikes, maybe 10
times in 30 miles.

I'm continually amazed at how my 'dry miles' only bike lasts. Over
3,000 miles on a chain, and it must be good for another 1,000.
Unthinkable on my all year round commuter.

On 2/6/2019 2:26 PM, Tosspot wrote:
On 2/6/19 4:41 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/5/2019 9:34 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/5/2019 8:48 PM, AMuzi wrote:


[raised eyebrow] 1000 miles? every year? yikes!

I also consider rims a consumable, but due to heart-shape
format or too many eyelets pulled through. I've never worn
out a rim's brake surface.

I'm glad you said that. I was feeling inadequate because I
don't think I've ever worn out a rim's brake surface.

I've replaced rims mostly when potholes have damaged them so
badly that I can't jack the dents back out (and I've jacked
out several bad dents). Also when switching from 27" to
700c.

Is there a rule of thumb for how thin I can let a braking
surface get? I'm talking about ancient rims that have no
indicator groove.


A straightedge will give a good idea of the wear. Brake
surface starts out flat, ends up concave:

http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...st/wornrim.jpg

Lol! I haven't seen that because it's clearly fake news and
doesn't happen. My mate had it, but it was clearly Mexicans
armed with wet'n'dry as we indulged in a light snack after
the Siera Nevada climb.


That is extreme, usually you see the precursor well in advance.

Well, _you_ might. But most don't.

Your average cyclist is pretty average and half of them are
below average.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wed, 06 Feb 2019 09:43:23 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 2/5/2019 10:13 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 5 Feb 2019 16:59:50 -0800, "Mark J."
wrote:

On 2/5/2019 3:27 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 05 Feb 2019 10:06:40 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-02-05 09:51, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, February 5, 2019 at 11:24:20 AM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-02-05 07:21, Radey Shouman wrote:

[...]


When I got home I looked at the rims. They were coated in white
frosty stuff that looked a lot like snow, but stuck much more
resolutely. Not normally much for washing bicycles, I spent a
few minutes cleaning off the frost and salt.

To be clear, the brakes are not modern equipment, but Weinmann
Vainqueur centerpulls, albeit with Kool Stop cartridge pads. I
do find them more than adequate ordinarily.

If I ever buy a new bicycle, I believe I'll favor those
fashionable disk brakes.


Try them out on a friend bike or a rental. You'll never look back.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

CRIKEY! What am I doing WRONG? I ride all year round and I don't have
problems with my rim brakes stopping any of my bicycles. That is even
true for my ancient long out of production Shimano Adamas AX brakes
and my Shimano Dura Ace AX brakes. Grant the Dura Ace AX bicycle is
kept for nicer weather but I have got caught out in the rain with it
and never had a problem. Not have i ever worn out a rim because of
brake wear. I ride thousands of miles every year too.

I just don't get how some people have such drastic problems with rims
wearing out.


Well, the rims on my 1st MTB were nearly shot after the first 1000mi of
foul weather riding. Most of the time I reached on on soggy winter trail
rides there was this goose bump eliciting sandpaper noise.

Needless to say, the next MTB had disc brakes and none of this is
happening now. Why should people put up with inferior components if
there are better ones that even reduce cost per mile over the years?


That is because you use those cheap and dirty aluminum rims. Switch to
proper chrome plated steel rims and they will last practically for
ever :-)

That's 'cause after a short while, the rider gives up entirely on
braking in the wet.

Mark J.

If you had a bicycle with a proper
coaster brake there wouldn;t be all these problems :-)



If you actually meant to write 'fixed gear' I would agree

Nope, no fixed gear. I meant coaster brake which in my youth was
powerful enough to skid the rear wheel... can't have more powerful
braking then that :-)
--

Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 6 Feb 2019 12:40:10 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/5/2019 11:17 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 05 Feb 2019 19:49:47 -0500, Radey Shouman
wrote:

Sir Ridesalot writes:

On Tuesday, February 5, 2019 at 2:09:28 PM UTC-5, Radey Shouman wrote:
Sir Ridesalot writes:

Snipped
What causes you to eventually discard rims? Do they just last forever?
Truly we must live in different worlds.

I just don't get how some people have such drastic problems with rims
wearing out.

Not sure what you mean by "drastic". Rims are a wear item.

--

If I get rid of a rim it's usually because it's been bent.

What I mean by "drastic" is people like Joerg who have to replace a
rim because it was worn through by rim brakes withing 1000
miles. Based on MY experience riding on dirt roads, touring with 40
pounds of gear on logging roads for 2 weeks at a time, and riding in
the rain and riding through the winter 1000 miles seems quite a low
number of miles for a pair of rims. I wonder if Joerg rides the
brakes?

I agree that 1000 miles seems a very short life for a rim. But I didn't
say that, and Joerg didn't bring it up, why did you?

Actually Joerg said
"Well, the rims on my 1st MTB were nearly shot after the first 1000mi
of"

Joerg is very, very unusual in many ways.

I was on a mountain bike ride where one guy's rim did fail from brake
pad wear. I didn't know him personally, so I can't say what the bike's
history was, and I've never heard of another such example from my many
cycling friends.

But it seems to me this depends not on the bike mileage, but on the
mileage during which the brakes were actually applied. On a road bike, I
doubt anyone spends a large percentage of their time on the brakes.
Well, excepting something like this:
http://adventureinhawaii.com/maui/downhill-bike-tour/

The force with which the brakes are applied also matters. I suppose if
someone were doing panic stops all the time, their rims wouldn't last long.

And I wonder how much the local soil composition matters. Joerg talks
about his soil composition being much more abrasive than that in other
locations. Perhaps he's right.

But then, he also talks about his local motorists being much more
aggressive than elsewhere, his trails being rougher than others, his
mountain lions being hungrier, etc. etc.

Don't forget the savage cows he often meets :-)
--

Cheers,

John B.

On 2/6/19 11:36 PM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

I sometimes wonder if I'm doing something wrong, or at my weight, the
load cycles just fatigue spoke holes. I've even cracked 36H E2s/MA2s,
but after many, many years. I didn't replace the last one until the
spoke socket pulled through the rim, and I ran out of spoke threads
to keep the wheel true. BTW, they have a big ERD like 608, and its
hard finding a swap-able rim. I've built 32H Velocity Aeroheads to
115kgf and got cracking. Velocity recommends 110 to 130kgf. My son
cracked a DT450 I built -- to spec. And its not like my tensiometer
is off. The spokes are not rock hard and the rims certainly aren't
taco-ing during building.

I have to say I normally go for 90-100kgf and have had no problems on
various rims (including MA2s). The one time I went over, into the
115-120 range, I suffered from spokes breaking periodically until I
slacked it off.

Has anyone measured factory built rims to see if the really tension them
up to their own specs?

On 2019-02-06 09:56, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/6/2019 11:25 AM, Ned Mantei wrote:
On 06-02-19 16:38, Joerg wrote:
I have used up some rims over my riding years. Back as a
student when I did 6000 miles per year I "solved" the
problem of having to spoke in by buying another used
beater bike every year. After I bought my first custom
road bike I had it done at the LBS because I am not that
good in trueing a wheel.

Waiting too long can be risky and not all rims have good
indicators when they are about to go. My sister had a
violent rim blow-out on a mountain bike. Luckily it was
the rear wheel. Of course, according to Sir, our family
must be a bunch of carnivores and rim eaters.

Not long ago I replaced the front rim on my everyday bike.
This was a DT-Swiss rim, which had as a wear indicator some
tiny holes a mm or so deep in the side. The rim should be
O.K. as long as you can see the holes. They were still
visible, but there was a slight grab at one spot while
braking, and there the rim joint had become visible. I
decided to replace the rim to be completely safe, and had
certainly got my money's worth since it was about 9 years
old. Out of curiosity I showed the rim to the LBS expert. He
broke the rim into pieces, with a for me surprising result:
Part of the rim wall was only about 0.75 or 0.8 mm thick, so
well into the danger zone. ...


Blowing a front rim can put you in the hospital or worse.


... Glad that I was cautious, even
though transferring the spokes to a new rim and getting
everything adjusted took more than 4 hours.

Ned

"transferring the spokes to a new rim and getting
everything adjusted took more than 4 hours."

including occasional meditation sessions and painting the room.


And the occasional cussing, followed by a spoke wrench being thrown to
the ground. I was sometimes close to that state.

There are two things I don't particularly like about cycling. Trueing a
wheel, and hills.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Tuesday, February 5, 2019 at 9:21:27 AM UTC-6, Radey Shouman wrote:
I went for a ride last Saturday -- it was neither long, nor fast, nor
scenic, a little trip to a neighboring town. On the way back it was
about 25F (-4C), below freezing, but hardly frostbite weather.

The sun was shining, the wind was blowing, the crows were singing
merrily to keep the seagulls in their place. The streets were mostly
clear, at least in the travel lanes, but were damp with melted brine.
We haven't had much snow this year, and local governments are dealing as
best they can with the dire prospect of a road salt budget surplus.

The brine tends to get tracked into the mean right tire track, forming a
dark stripe, which is where I rode a great deal of the time. To the
right were piles of ice and snow, patches of crusty salt, dog**** popsicles
and cigarette butts. To the left it was already a bit hard for drivers
to pass.

Two blocks from home, having not touched the brakes in quite a while, I
meant to slow for a left turn, and applied the brakes. Just perceptible
slowing obtained, even when squeezing hard. This was a little
disappointing, not what most would expect from brakes at all. Unlike
rain, the problem didn't go away as water was wiped from the rims -- it
stayed crappy until I almost missed my turn in the neighbor's front
yard.

When I got home I looked at the rims. They were coated in white frosty
stuff that looked a lot like snow, but stuck much more resolutely. Not
normally much for washing bicycles, I spent a few minutes cleaning off
the frost and salt.
Yes, that stuff gets all over the bike here in Chicago when riding on the road, bike lanes, and Lake Front Trail. I normally wipe it off the wheels/bike frame/chain. Some times, if I don't, that stuff crystallizes and feels thicket. The best way to remove all that grime is with a long handled brush, warm soapy water, and whalah. All good.



To be clear, the brakes are not modern equipment, but Weinmann Vainqueur
centerpulls, albeit with Kool Stop cartridge pads. I do find them more
than adequate ordinarily.

Love me brakes like those! They do work fine like they've always worked.

If I ever buy a new bicycle, I believe I'll favor those fashionable disk
brakes.

--
Disc brakes... yes, I used to refuse them, but for the last 12 years, I've used them. Properly maintained, they'll be useful for a long time. I have some older bikes with rim brakes, and the newer ones have disc only setups.

AMuzi wrote:
:On 2/6/2019 11:25 AM, Ned Mantei wrote:
: On 06-02-19 16:38, Joerg wrote:
: I have used up some rims over my riding years. Back as a
: student when I did 6000 miles per year I "solved" the
: problem of having to spoke in by buying another used
: beater bike every year. After I bought my first custom
: road bike I had it done at the LBS because I am not that
: good in trueing a wheel.
:
: Waiting too long can be risky and not all rims have good
: indicators when they are about to go. My sister had a
: violent rim blow-out on a mountain bike. Luckily it was
: the rear wheel. Of course, according to Sir, our family
: must be a bunch of carnivores and rim eaters.
:
: Not long ago I replaced the front rim on my everyday bike.
: This was a DT-Swiss rim, which had as a wear indicator some
: tiny holes a mm or so deep in the side. The rim should be
: O.K. as long as you can see the holes. They were still
: visible, but there was a slight grab at one spot while
: braking, and there the rim joint had become visible. I
: decided to replace the rim to be completely safe, and had
: certainly got my money's worth since it was about 9 years
: old. Out of curiosity I showed the rim to the LBS expert. He
: broke the rim into pieces, with a for me surprising result:
: Part of the rim wall was only about 0.75 or 0.8 mm thick, so
: well into the danger zone. Glad that I was cautious, even
: though transferring the spokes to a new rim and getting
: everything adjusted took more than 4 hours.
:
: Ned

: "transferring the spokes to a new rim and getting
: everything adjusted took more than 4 hours."

:including occasional meditation sessions and painting the room.


While I have no doubt that you, or anyone who builds wheels more often
than I do, could do it much faster, 4 hours is about what I'd expect
it to take me.




--
sig 44

On 2/11/2019 9:15 PM, David Scheidt wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
:On 2/6/2019 11:25 AM, Ned Mantei wrote:
: On 06-02-19 16:38, Joerg wrote:
: I have used up some rims over my riding years. Back as a
: student when I did 6000 miles per year I "solved" the
: problem of having to spoke in by buying another used
: beater bike every year. After I bought my first custom
: road bike I had it done at the LBS because I am not that
: good in trueing a wheel.
:
: Waiting too long can be risky and not all rims have good
: indicators when they are about to go. My sister had a
: violent rim blow-out on a mountain bike. Luckily it was
: the rear wheel. Of course, according to Sir, our family
: must be a bunch of carnivores and rim eaters.
:
: Not long ago I replaced the front rim on my everyday bike.
: This was a DT-Swiss rim, which had as a wear indicator some
: tiny holes a mm or so deep in the side. The rim should be
: O.K. as long as you can see the holes. They were still
: visible, but there was a slight grab at one spot while
: braking, and there the rim joint had become visible. I
: decided to replace the rim to be completely safe, and had
: certainly got my money's worth since it was about 9 years
: old. Out of curiosity I showed the rim to the LBS expert. He
: broke the rim into pieces, with a for me surprising result:
: Part of the rim wall was only about 0.75 or 0.8 mm thick, so
: well into the danger zone. Glad that I was cautious, even
: though transferring the spokes to a new rim and getting
: everything adjusted took more than 4 hours.
:
: Ned

: "transferring the spokes to a new rim and getting
: everything adjusted took more than 4 hours."

:including occasional meditation sessions and painting the room.


While I have no doubt that you, or anyone who builds wheels more often
than I do, could do it much faster, 4 hours is about what I'd expect
it to take me.

I don't do it very often, but I've done it enough that it doesn't take
me quite that long.

But to me, the time doesn't matter. As long as there are no problems
(things like too-long spokes, etc.) I think it's sort of pleasant,
meditative work.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2019-02-11 18:15, David Scheidt wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
:On 2/6/2019 11:25 AM, Ned Mantei wrote:
: On 06-02-19 16:38, Joerg wrote:
: I have used up some rims over my riding years. Back as a
: student when I did 6000 miles per year I "solved" the
: problem of having to spoke in by buying another used
: beater bike every year. After I bought my first custom
: road bike I had it done at the LBS because I am not that
: good in trueing a wheel.
:
: Waiting too long can be risky and not all rims have good
: indicators when they are about to go. My sister had a
: violent rim blow-out on a mountain bike. Luckily it was
: the rear wheel. Of course, according to Sir, our family
: must be a bunch of carnivores and rim eaters.
:
: Not long ago I replaced the front rim on my everyday bike.
: This was a DT-Swiss rim, which had as a wear indicator some
: tiny holes a mm or so deep in the side. The rim should be
: O.K. as long as you can see the holes. They were still
: visible, but there was a slight grab at one spot while
: braking, and there the rim joint had become visible. I
: decided to replace the rim to be completely safe, and had
: certainly got my money's worth since it was about 9 years
: old. Out of curiosity I showed the rim to the LBS expert. He
: broke the rim into pieces, with a for me surprising result:
: Part of the rim wall was only about 0.75 or 0.8 mm thick, so
: well into the danger zone. Glad that I was cautious, even
: though transferring the spokes to a new rim and getting
: everything adjusted took more than 4 hours.
:
: Ned

: "transferring the spokes to a new rim and getting
: everything adjusted took more than 4 hours."

:including occasional meditation sessions and painting the room.


While I have no doubt that you, or anyone who builds wheels more often
than I do, could do it much faster, 4 hours is about what I'd expect
it to take me.


I prefer the five minutes it takes to swap out a brake rotor, then use
the remaining 3:55h to ride 8-)

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/