Cannondale recall

On 7/26/2019 2:11 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, July 26, 2019 at 5:17:47 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/25/2019 10:48 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Thursday, July 25, 2019 at 6:32:51 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/25/2019 2:52 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
https://gearjunkie.com/cannondale-ca...bicycle-recall

Hmm. The carbon fiber fork may kill you.

But on the other hand, it's nice and light!

- Frank Krygowski


Well, that's true but the history of recalled forks includes
steel and aluminum models as well.

Agreed. My Reynolds 531 tandem fork failed. But that builder error - by builder
Jim Bradford.

- Frank Krygowski


You've mentioned that before and of course we see occasional
anomalies/errors too. In everything.

But a fork recall happens when
design/engineering/material/process has systematically
failed for a particular run of product. Different thing
entirely.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

"systematic failure" could be a half dozen forks all failing in the same manner. But consider - fork failures are all pretty much the same - steel forks bend almost in the same position on all steel bikes. Aluminum forks all fail just above the dropout or at the connection between the fork and the head. I'm sure it has happened but I haven't seen modern carbon fiber forks fail except in collisions.


Right. Recalls are response to a pattern indicating
systemic failure to some significant level (as opposed to
one-off anomalies).

Uh, "Fork failures are all..." is not quite true.

Steel-
The recalled Bridgestone X-01 fork steerers fell out of the
crowns. Motobécane Grand Touring/Mirage forks had ends not
brazed in, and yet plated over

Viscount recalled aluminum cast forks had random voids in
the lower piece. The steel columns were never a problem.
Peugeot Comete cold process aluminum forks had crown casting
voids as well. Panasonic bonded aluminum tubes had bond
problems (not clean? wrong epoxy? no idea)

Carbon forks have been recalled for voids but also for
crown-to-column bonding with steel and aluminum columns.

If you're talking about crash damage as opposed to recalls
that's also not right. Although many if not most steel
blades curve back in the top 1/3 of the blades when smacked:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/NIMGAFRK.JPG

Forks also snap off ends, bend or crack steerers and twist
too. I see more wrecked frames than most guys and
categorical statements don't match what I see.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, July 26, 2019 at 4:25:45 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/26/2019 2:11 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, July 26, 2019 at 5:17:47 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/25/2019 10:48 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Thursday, July 25, 2019 at 6:32:51 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/25/2019 2:52 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
https://gearjunkie.com/cannondale-ca...bicycle-recall

Hmm. The carbon fiber fork may kill you.

But on the other hand, it's nice and light!

- Frank Krygowski


Well, that's true but the history of recalled forks includes
steel and aluminum models as well.

Agreed. My Reynolds 531 tandem fork failed. But that builder error - by builder
Jim Bradford.

- Frank Krygowski


You've mentioned that before and of course we see occasional
anomalies/errors too. In everything.

But a fork recall happens when
design/engineering/material/process has systematically
failed for a particular run of product. Different thing
entirely.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

"systematic failure" could be a half dozen forks all failing in the same manner. But consider - fork failures are all pretty much the same - steel forks bend almost in the same position on all steel bikes. Aluminum forks all fail just above the dropout or at the connection between the fork and the head. I'm sure it has happened but I haven't seen modern carbon fiber forks fail except in collisions.


Right. Recalls are response to a pattern indicating
systemic failure to some significant level (as opposed to
one-off anomalies).

Uh, "Fork failures are all..." is not quite true.

Steel-
The recalled Bridgestone X-01 fork steerers fell out of the
crowns. Motobécane Grand Touring/Mirage forks had ends not
brazed in, and yet plated over

Viscount recalled aluminum cast forks had random voids in
the lower piece. The steel columns were never a problem.
Peugeot Comete cold process aluminum forks had crown casting
voids as well. Panasonic bonded aluminum tubes had bond
problems (not clean? wrong epoxy? no idea)

Carbon forks have been recalled for voids but also for
crown-to-column bonding with steel and aluminum columns.

If you're talking about crash damage as opposed to recalls
that's also not right. Although many if not most steel
blades curve back in the top 1/3 of the blades when smacked:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/NIMGAFRK.JPG

Forks also snap off ends, bend or crack steerers and twist
too. I see more wrecked frames than most guys and
categorical statements don't match what I see.

Andrew, what are we looking at in your photos? Is the top photo as it came into
your shop after a front impact of the wheel on a stone planter?

Are the lower photos the result of applying force to get it back into shape?
If so, how and where did you apply the force?

- Frank Krygowski

On 7/26/2019 5:22 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, July 26, 2019 at 4:25:45 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/26/2019 2:11 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, July 26, 2019 at 5:17:47 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/25/2019 10:48 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Thursday, July 25, 2019 at 6:32:51 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/25/2019 2:52 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
https://gearjunkie.com/cannondale-ca...bicycle-recall

Hmm. The carbon fiber fork may kill you.

But on the other hand, it's nice and light!

- Frank Krygowski


Well, that's true but the history of recalled forks includes
steel and aluminum models as well.

Agreed. My Reynolds 531 tandem fork failed. But that builder error - by builder
Jim Bradford.

- Frank Krygowski


You've mentioned that before and of course we see occasional
anomalies/errors too. In everything.

But a fork recall happens when
design/engineering/material/process has systematically
failed for a particular run of product. Different thing
entirely.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

"systematic failure" could be a half dozen forks all failing in the same manner. But consider - fork failures are all pretty much the same - steel forks bend almost in the same position on all steel bikes. Aluminum forks all fail just above the dropout or at the connection between the fork and the head. I'm sure it has happened but I haven't seen modern carbon fiber forks fail except in collisions.


Right. Recalls are response to a pattern indicating
systemic failure to some significant level (as opposed to
one-off anomalies).

Uh, "Fork failures are all..." is not quite true.

Steel-
The recalled Bridgestone X-01 fork steerers fell out of the
crowns. Motobécane Grand Touring/Mirage forks had ends not
brazed in, and yet plated over

Viscount recalled aluminum cast forks had random voids in
the lower piece. The steel columns were never a problem.
Peugeot Comete cold process aluminum forks had crown casting
voids as well. Panasonic bonded aluminum tubes had bond
problems (not clean? wrong epoxy? no idea)

Carbon forks have been recalled for voids but also for
crown-to-column bonding with steel and aluminum columns.

If you're talking about crash damage as opposed to recalls
that's also not right. Although many if not most steel
blades curve back in the top 1/3 of the blades when smacked:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/NIMGAFRK.JPG

Forks also snap off ends, bend or crack steerers and twist
too. I see more wrecked frames than most guys and
categorical statements don't match what I see.

Andrew, what are we looking at in your photos? Is the top photo as it came into
your shop after a front impact of the wheel on a stone planter?

Are the lower photos the result of applying force to get it back into shape?
If so, how and where did you apply the force?

- Frank Krygowski


Yes, it's shown in a fork alignment fixture.
Straight gauge heavy CrMo, no issues with straightening as
shown.
We prefer psychokenesis when incantations just aren't enough.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 7/25/2019 3:32 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/25/2019 2:52 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
https://gearjunkie.com/cannondale-ca...bicycle-recall

Hmm. The carbon fiber fork may kill you.

But on the other hand, it's nice and light!

- Frank Krygowski


Well, that's true but the history of recalled forks includes steel and
aluminum models as well.

Perhaps, but there's at least a couple of orders of magnitude
difference. Google "fork recall" and nearly every instance is of carbon
or aluminum. The most recent steel fork recall was related to disc
brakes and the fork failing after fewer stress cycles than the
manufacturer deemed acceptable.

Of course back in the days before aluminum or carbon, just about all the
fork failures were of steel forks.

Way too many deaths due to carbon fork failures.

On Friday, July 26, 2019 at 8:29:45 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 7/25/2019 3:32 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/25/2019 2:52 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
https://gearjunkie.com/cannondale-ca...bicycle-recall

Hmm. The carbon fiber fork may kill you.

But on the other hand, it's nice and light!

- Frank Krygowski


Well, that's true but the history of recalled forks includes steel and
aluminum models as well.

Perhaps, but there's at least a couple of orders of magnitude
difference. Google "fork recall" and nearly every instance is of carbon
or aluminum. The most recent steel fork recall was related to disc
brakes and the fork failing after fewer stress cycles than the
manufacturer deemed acceptable.

Of course back in the days before aluminum or carbon, just about all the
fork failures were of steel forks.

Way too many deaths due to carbon fork failures.

The fact is, we don't know what deaths were or were not caused by carbon fork failures. I've done a few fork cases, carbon and aluminum, and in all but one case, the fork broke due to an impact or a stick or a dog leash. The one clear manufacturing error was the CF version of Frank's steel tandem fork -- lack of bonding agent at the fork crown/fork leg.

There are no seatbelts on a bike, and when a rider hits a rock or wall or curb or dog, he or she is going to get launched. What happens to the bike is often irrelevant -- but when a rider gets off the ground and sees a broken fork or frame, it is immediately presumed the crash was caused by the failure rather than vice-versa. Yes, there are CF for failures and recalls, and I'm not giving the industry a free pass, but considering the millions of CF forks in existence, there clearly is no epidemic of CF fork-induced deaths.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Friday, July 26, 2019 at 11:29:45 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
On 7/25/2019 3:32 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/25/2019 2:52 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
https://gearjunkie.com/cannondale-ca...bicycle-recall

Hmm. The carbon fiber fork may kill you.

But on the other hand, it's nice and light!

- Frank Krygowski


Well, that's true but the history of recalled forks includes steel and
aluminum models as well.

Perhaps, but there's at least a couple of orders of magnitude
difference. Google "fork recall" and nearly every instance is of carbon
or aluminum. The most recent steel fork recall was related to disc
brakes and the fork failing after fewer stress cycles than the
manufacturer deemed acceptable.

Of course back in the days before aluminum or carbon, just about all the
fork failures were of steel forks.

Way too many deaths due to carbon fork failures.

Yet even more fear mongering from you. According to many posts and threads you made/started, bicycling is an exceedingly dangerous activity to engage in. Why do you even ride a bicycle? Does engaging in such a dangerous activity make you feel more macho? Or, is bicycling actually such a safe activity that one does NOT need all the safety equipment you persist in telling us they do? Btw, fork failures, let alone carbon fiber fork failures, are not all that common. Deaths resulting from fork failures are astonishingly rare.

Cheers

On 7/27/2019 9:34 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, July 26, 2019 at 8:29:45 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 7/25/2019 3:32 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/25/2019 2:52 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
https://gearjunkie.com/cannondale-ca...bicycle-recall

Hmm. The carbon fiber fork may kill you.

But on the other hand, it's nice and light!

- Frank Krygowski


Well, that's true but the history of recalled forks includes steel and
aluminum models as well.

Perhaps, but there's at least a couple of orders of magnitude
difference. Google "fork recall" and nearly every instance is of carbon
or aluminum. The most recent steel fork recall was related to disc
brakes and the fork failing after fewer stress cycles than the
manufacturer deemed acceptable.

Of course back in the days before aluminum or carbon, just about all the
fork failures were of steel forks.

Way too many deaths due to carbon fork failures.

The fact is, we don't know what deaths were or were not caused by carbon fork failures. I've done a few fork cases, carbon and aluminum, and in all but one case, the fork broke due to an impact or a stick or a dog leash. The one clear manufacturing error was the CF version of Frank's steel tandem fork -- lack of bonding agent at the fork crown/fork leg.

There are no seatbelts on a bike, and when a rider hits a rock or wall or curb or dog, he or she is going to get launched. What happens to the bike is often irrelevant -- but when a rider gets off the ground and sees a broken fork or frame, it is immediately presumed the crash was caused by the failure rather than vice-versa. Yes, there are CF for failures and recalls, and I'm not giving the industry a free pass, but considering the millions of CF forks in existence, there clearly is no epidemic of CF fork-induced deaths.

-- Jay Beattie.


Plaintiff's attorney, holding up bent bicycle fork,"Your
honor, my client was just riding along when this defective
bicycle fork suddenly sprung and threw him into the side of
the bus..."

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 7/27/2019 7:34 AM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

The fact is, we don't know what deaths were or were not caused by carbon fork failures.

We pretty much do. The fork fails, the rider crashes and dies. The death
is attributed to fork failure. Yes, there may have been contributing
factors to the fork failure other than a manufacturing defect and a fork
that never had experienced any trauma may not have broken.

There are no seatbelts on a bike, and when a rider hits a rock or wall or curb or dog, he or she is going to get launched. What happens to the bike is often irrelevant -- but when a rider gets off the ground and sees a broken fork or frame, it is immediately presumed the crash was caused by the failure rather than vice-versa. Yes, there are CF for failures and recalls, and I'm not giving the industry a free pass, but considering the millions of CF forks in existence, there clearly is no epidemic of CF fork-induced deaths.

Not an epidemic, but about Phase 3 of a pandemic.

Just to be safe you should order some Rivendell forks when they are back
in stock
https://www.rivbike.com/products/carbonomas-steel-fork-1-1-8-threadless-curved.
But there is no disc brake model. Soma Fabrications is another good
source for you to consider when replacing all the carbon forks in your
fleet with steel forks, see https://www.somafab.com/parts/forks.

On Saturday, July 27, 2019 at 12:34:12 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
On 7/27/2019 7:34 AM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

The fact is, we don't know what deaths were or were not caused by carbon fork failures.

We pretty much do. The fork fails, the rider crashes and dies.

Or just as probable, "The rider crashes and dies, and the fork was broken." The
fork may have broken incidentally, not as a cause.

There are accident reconstructionists who attempt to determine causes of such
things, and their work is not simple. BTW, the same thing happens with many
other types of mechanical failures. I've done a little of that sort of analysis
for litigation, and had colleagues who did a lot of it.

Just to be safe you should order some Rivendell forks ...

Oh my gosh, we must do everything we can to improve safety!

The trouble with Rivendell forks is they are still hollow. Can you imagine?
A hole right up the middle! We need to return to the solid forks of yore.

- Frank Krygowski

On Sat, 27 Jul 2019 11:19:30 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Saturday, July 27, 2019 at 12:34:12 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
On 7/27/2019 7:34 AM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

The fact is, we don't know what deaths were or were not caused by carbon fork failures.

We pretty much do. The fork fails, the rider crashes and dies.

Or just as probable, "The rider crashes and dies, and the fork was broken." The
fork may have broken incidentally, not as a cause.

There are accident reconstructionists who attempt to determine causes of such
things, and their work is not simple. BTW, the same thing happens with many
other types of mechanical failures. I've done a little of that sort of analysis
for litigation, and had colleagues who did a lot of it.

Just to be safe you should order some Rivendell forks ...

Oh my gosh, we must do everything we can to improve safety!

The trouble with Rivendell forks is they are still hollow. Can you imagine?
A hole right up the middle! We need to return to the solid forks of yore.

- Frank Krygowski

Actually they used to make forks with added bracing, I've even seen
some with a sort of spring loaded brace on each fork leg. It is quite
obvious that the "modern" cyclist in his senseless lust for a lighter
bicycle is his worst enemy. Lighter bicycle = lighter components =
weaker components = crash.
--

Cheers,

John B.