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  #61  
Old December 20th 19, 07:24 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
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Posts: 1,231
Default Yikes! Di2

On Friday, December 20, 2019 at 5:10:05 AM UTC-8, duane wrote:
On 12/19/2019 1:44 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/19/2019 12:16 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/19/2019 11:48 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:

Contrary to Frank's ideas, it appears that once you know
this stuff it is petty easy - easier than running cables
and attempting to get the tension correct and having to
readjust it a dozen times to get everything shifting
properly.

Once you know this stuff, it will be pretty easy - until
they come out with the next "improvement." Then you'll have
to learn it all over again. Meanwhile, the software will
have gone through three updates, each with a different user
interface. The next version of the software won't even run
on whatever computer you had; it may require you to move
everything to your cell phone.

And if and when part of the mechanism breaks, the generation
of equipment you own will no longer be available. Newer
generations will not be compatible. You may be able,
theoretically, to hack something into compatibility, but it
will involve hours of internet searching to find the hack.

All of this will be fine with most of the system's buyers,
because they won't want anything sold more than ten years
ago. And after all, why waste all muscular work pushing a
button? Only a retrogrouch would refuse to use voice command
shifting.

"Alexa, check Google Maps to see the gradient of the next
hill, and check Google Weather to see the speed of the
headwind. Check my blood sugar level and refer to my sleep
record from last night, an choose a good gear for me. Alexa?
Got that? Alexa? Are you there?? Alexa??? Hurry!! ****!!!"

And your shifting system responds:

"I'm sorry, I'm not capable of ****ting. I don't have that
bodily function."



Sorta.
And yet we survived CP/M, C-Basic, Lotus macro language. BASICA, C and
beyond, each because they offered some benefit we valued more than the
learning time.


You forgot PDP8s. Who could ever need more than 12 bits...

No one twists elbows to force sales of new equipment and as long as
fixed gear (since 1885!) remains a viable and popular option, you can't
say 'everyone's buying this new system'. Some are, some aren't, which is
fine by me.


+1


Fixed gear is fine as long as the ground is flat. We used fixed gear around here to train you to climb in large gears. Then that became too old fashioned.
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  #62  
Old December 20th 19, 08:06 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Chalo
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,093
Default Yikes! Di2

jbeattie wrote:

https://tinyurl.com/wrk5fvk
20 clams. I'm not sure if the right has a friction option.


I've gotten those for 8 and 9 speed bikes. Microshift makes some too, costlier but not obviously better. None of the new crop has a friction option, which is vexing when you could otherwise have anything from 7 to 11 gears on the same hub spacing.

(Friction shifting 10 or 11 sounds awful if you know which gear you want. Maybe not so bad if you don't mind some randomness.)

Now that almost all frames come with easy-to-replace, even-easier-to-bend derailleur hangers, having a manual override for indexing seems more important than it was back when we had it. Also, Shimano no longer want to commit to a single cable pull ratio for all their derailleurs (apparently for the sole purpose of making some parts of their product line incompatible with others). That's not really a problem for friction shifting.

  #63  
Old December 20th 19, 08:23 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 13,447
Default Yikes! Di2

On 12/20/2019 12:21 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, December 19, 2019 at 9:46:36 PM UTC-8, Chalo wrote:
Tom Kunich wrote:

Frank, How many people do you suppose there are left in the world
that use downtube shifters?


I see more bikes with downtube shifters at the shop than I do of all 11-speed bikes combined. These bikes are being used, which is why they come in for service.

I don't like using downtube shifters, which stay at about the same height off the ground no matter how tall the bike. (So for my bikes, they're way the hell down there somewhere.) But they are easily the most mechanically elegant shifters around, and the easiest to deal with from a service standpoint.

I prefer index thumbshifters with a friction option to any other shifters I've tried. I wish they were still made.


You can get bar-ends with friction option.


From Silver. It's the same lever as their downtube model
but with handlebar mounting.

https://www.vintagevelo.co.uk/wp-con...DSC_0072-4.jpg

The various Shimano bar end controls with both SIS &
friction mode are much more popular.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #64  
Old December 20th 19, 10:37 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Radey Shouman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,747
Default Yikes! Di2

Chalo writes:

jbeattie wrote:

https://tinyurl.com/wrk5fvk
20 clams. I'm not sure if the right has a friction option.


I've gotten those for 8 and 9 speed bikes. Microshift makes some too,
costlier but not obviously better. None of the new crop has a
friction option, which is vexing when you could otherwise have
anything from 7 to 11 gears on the same hub spacing.

(Friction shifting 10 or 11 sounds awful if you know which gear you
want. Maybe not so bad if you don't mind some randomness.)

Now that almost all frames come with easy-to-replace,
even-easier-to-bend derailleur hangers, having a manual override for
indexing seems more important than it was back when we had it. Also,
Shimano no longer want to commit to a single cable pull ratio for all
their derailleurs (apparently for the sole purpose of making some
parts of their product line incompatible with others). That's not
really a problem for friction shifting.


The natural development of shift-by-wire will be that the cable pull
ratio will not even be the same for a single derailleur. Each gear
change will have its own requirement for cable pull. Once the
derailleurs have CANBus connectors, they'll be able to tell the shifters
what they need ...
  #65  
Old December 20th 19, 11:13 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,270
Default Yikes! Di2

On Friday, 20 December 2019 13:24:11 UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, December 20, 2019 at 5:10:05 AM UTC-8, duane wrote:
On 12/19/2019 1:44 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/19/2019 12:16 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/19/2019 11:48 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:

Contrary to Frank's ideas, it appears that once you know
this stuff it is petty easy - easier than running cables
and attempting to get the tension correct and having to
readjust it a dozen times to get everything shifting
properly.

Once you know this stuff, it will be pretty easy - until
they come out with the next "improvement." Then you'll have
to learn it all over again. Meanwhile, the software will
have gone through three updates, each with a different user
interface. The next version of the software won't even run
on whatever computer you had; it may require you to move
everything to your cell phone.

And if and when part of the mechanism breaks, the generation
of equipment you own will no longer be available. Newer
generations will not be compatible. You may be able,
theoretically, to hack something into compatibility, but it
will involve hours of internet searching to find the hack.

All of this will be fine with most of the system's buyers,
because they won't want anything sold more than ten years
ago. And after all, why waste all muscular work pushing a
button? Only a retrogrouch would refuse to use voice command
shifting.

"Alexa, check Google Maps to see the gradient of the next
hill, and check Google Weather to see the speed of the
headwind. Check my blood sugar level and refer to my sleep
record from last night, an choose a good gear for me. Alexa?
Got that? Alexa? Are you there?? Alexa??? Hurry!! ****!!!"

And your shifting system responds:

"I'm sorry, I'm not capable of ****ting. I don't have that
bodily function."



Sorta.
And yet we survived CP/M, C-Basic, Lotus macro language. BASICA, C and
beyond, each because they offered some benefit we valued more than the
learning time.


You forgot PDP8s. Who could ever need more than 12 bits...

No one twists elbows to force sales of new equipment and as long as
fixed gear (since 1885!) remains a viable and popular option, you can't
say 'everyone's buying this new system'. Some are, some aren't, which is
fine by me.


+1


Fixed gear is fine as long as the ground is flat. We used fixed gear around here to train you to climb in large gears. Then that became too old fashioned.


I know lots of guys and gals who ride fixed gear up hills too.

Cheers
  #66  
Old December 20th 19, 11:27 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Yikes! Di2

On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 09:28:53 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 12/20/2019 3:27 AM, John B. wrote:
O.

Errr, powered, two wheel vehicles date back over a hundred years and
haven't yet made the Olympics :-)


... as far as we know...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6w3TJs0lks


I thought that was all corrected a few years ago?
--
cheers,

John B.

  #67  
Old December 20th 19, 11:36 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Yikes! Di2

On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 10:01:47 -0000 (UTC), news18
wrote:

On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 14:57:01 +0700, John B. wrote:

On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 21:33:45 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 19:24:38 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

And following links from the
"Updateyour firmware!"
https://e-tubeproject.shimano.com/ne...ease_ipad.html

I hope I never have a bicycle with firmware.

I hope I never have a bicycle where the component manufacturers don't
bother updating their firmware. In the computah business, everything
has firmware. Same with most everything that has a microprocessor,
controller, or brain of some type. There are many advantages and
disadvantages to having a product with upgradable firmware. I don't
want to get into a debate on those, but will mention that the major
advantage is to the manufacturer, who is able to ship a product that
isn't quite finished. In computahs, the first thing I have to do when
delivering a computah is to update the motherboard BIOS, video, printer,
and accessory firmware. Nobody ships products with current firmware and
no sane customer would run such a computer on the original factory
firmware. There are just too many bugs and security problems to risk
it. In some cases, you can't repair a product unless you can also
upgrade its firmware. So, instead of returning your products every few
weeks to the factory authorized service station for upgrades (as is
common with companies selling DMCA protected products), you are allowed
to do your own firmware updates. Unless Right to Repair becomes an
enforceable law, consider yourself fortunate that your gadgets are not
managed in the same manner as tractors:
https://www.wired.com/story/john-deere-farmers-right-to-repair/


As I read that it appeared to reference the software used on the machine
and that the owner didn't have the right to modify the code. But isn't
that very similar to many computer programs or operating systems? Wasn't
that what Richard Stallman used to rant about?


Wise people choose not to go down that path of lock in software, and he
still is, as are many people.


Some years ago I knew a bloke that worked for IBM and was part of a
group that was installing a new machine and software system for a
major bank here in Thailand. I was given to understand that IBM had
some sort of patent/copyright/agreement/whatever that was intended to
prevent the bank from making modifications to either the software or
the hardware, or rather if they wished to make a modification they had
to go back to IBM and have them do it.
--
cheers,

John B.

  #68  
Old December 21st 19, 12:22 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default Yikes! Di2

On 12/20/2019 4:27 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 09:28:53 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 12/20/2019 3:27 AM, John B. wrote:
O.

Errr, powered, two wheel vehicles date back over a hundred years and
haven't yet made the Olympics :-)


... as far as we know...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6w3TJs0lks


I thought that was all corrected a few years ago?
--
cheers,

John B.


Corrected? That's a lot of heat to dissipate! How did they
manage it?

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #69  
Old December 21st 19, 02:48 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Yikes! Di2

On 12/20/2019 5:27 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 09:28:53 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 12/20/2019 3:27 AM, John B. wrote:
O.

Errr, powered, two wheel vehicles date back over a hundred years and
haven't yet made the Olympics :-)


... as far as we know...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6w3TJs0lks


I thought that was all corrected a few years ago?


Yep. And all the conventional doping was fixed too.

Oh, wait...

Technology marches on. (So does chemistry and biology.)

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #70  
Old December 21st 19, 02:50 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Yikes! Di2

On 12/20/2019 5:01 AM, news18 wrote:
On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 14:57:01 +0700, John B. wrote:

On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 21:33:45 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 19:24:38 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

And following links from the
"Updateyour firmware!"
https://e-tubeproject.shimano.com/ne...ease_ipad.html

I hope I never have a bicycle with firmware.

I hope I never have a bicycle where the component manufacturers don't
bother updating their firmware. In the computah business, everything
has firmware. Same with most everything that has a microprocessor,
controller, or brain of some type. There are many advantages and
disadvantages to having a product with upgradable firmware. I don't
want to get into a debate on those, but will mention that the major
advantage is to the manufacturer, who is able to ship a product that
isn't quite finished. In computahs, the first thing I have to do when
delivering a computah is to update the motherboard BIOS, video, printer,
and accessory firmware. Nobody ships products with current firmware and
no sane customer would run such a computer on the original factory
firmware. There are just too many bugs and security problems to risk
it. In some cases, you can't repair a product unless you can also
upgrade its firmware. So, instead of returning your products every few
weeks to the factory authorized service station for upgrades (as is
common with companies selling DMCA protected products), you are allowed
to do your own firmware updates. Unless Right to Repair becomes an
enforceable law, consider yourself fortunate that your gadgets are not
managed in the same manner as tractors:
https://www.wired.com/story/john-deere-farmers-right-to-repair/


As I read that it appeared to reference the software used on the machine
and that the owner didn't have the right to modify the code. But isn't
that very similar to many computer programs or operating systems? Wasn't
that what Richard Stallman used to rant about?


Wise people choose not to go down that path of lock in software, and he
still is, as are many people.


https://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto


--
- Frank Krygowski
 




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