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Self Driving Vehicles



 
 
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Old December 30th 19, 03:13 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Default Self Driving Vehicles

On Sunday, December 29, 2019 at 7:31:15 PM UTC, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/29/2019 1:59 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, December 29, 2019 at 9:56:56 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, December 27, 2019 at 9:56:17 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, December 27, 2019 at 7:39:43 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
snip?

Given the fact that almost all lanes are (by simple math) too narrow to
safely share, it makes sense to use a position toward center as the
default.

With long sight lines on flat-ish country roads, cars just go around when I'm riding AFRAP. I have the room I need and so do they. When riding in the sticks, sitting in the middle of the road produces closes passes and honking. Why make myself miserable?


And that's even without needing reference to the rest of the typical
examptions. Example from Ohio law: "Conditions that may require riding
away from the edge of the roadway include when necessary to avoid fixed
or moving objects, parked or moving vehicles, surface hazards, or if it
otherwise is unsafe or impracticable to do so, including if the lane is
too narrow for the bicycle or electric bicycle and an overtaking vehicle
to travel safely side by side within the lane. "

The Oregon law says you can take the lane to avoid "unsafe operation" by a MV in the lane if the lane is too narrow for a bicycle and vehicle to travel safely side by side. It is generally interpreted by ODOT as meaning that you can take the lane to prevent unsafe passing.

With the safe passing law, a car must pass within a "safe distance" (bicycle fall-over distance), and the law expressly allows the vehicle to cross a solid center-line to pass a bike. Assuming a empty road, a car can simply go around, and there is no risk of unsafe passing within the lane, so AFRAP is what you do. That's the ODOT handbook rule.

But like I said, if there is oncoming traffic or a congested second lane -- assuming two travel lanes in the same direction -- then I'll take the lane. I just don't sit in the middle of the lane willy-nilly as a default rule.

Also, there is an express requirement that cyclists follow the "failure to yield" law:

ORS 811.425

A person commits the offense of failure of a slower driver to yield to overtaking vehicle if the person is driving a vehicle and the person fails to move the person’s vehicle off the main traveled portion of the highway into an area sufficient for safe turnout when:

(a)The driver of the overtaken vehicle is proceeding at a speed less than a speed established in ORS 811.105 (Speeds that are evidence of basic rule violation) as prima facie evidence of violation of the basic speed rule;

(b)The driver of the overtaking vehicle is proceeding at a speed in conformity with ORS 811.105 (Speeds that are evidence of basic rule violation);

(c)The highway is a two directional, two-lane highway; and

(d)There is no clear lane for passing available to the driver of the overtaking vehicle.

(2)This section does not apply to the driver of a vehicle in a funeral procession.

(3)The offense described in this section, failure of a slower driver to yield to overtaking vehicle, is a Class B traffic violation. [1983 c.338 §640; 1991 c.482 §16; 1995 c.383 §68; 2001 c.104 §307; 2003 c.819 §15]


On the typical one-lane each way road, you have to pull over to let cars go if there is a twisting or congested lane in the opposite direction. Sorry, but the Officious Cyclist promenading through the countryside with a car -- or ten cars -- stuck behind him would get a ticket. He would also get run-down by some ****ed-off mullet head in a pickup.

Personally, I don't like cars lurking behind me. I pull AFRAP and let them go when it is safe to do so. I have no point to prove.


I don't doubt that there are other sources of good information. But I do
believe that most cyclists never seek out any such information, and
their behavior proves that.

Also, those who take a class will practice things like emergency hazard
avoidance and trickier on-road situations - things like complicated
intersections, freeway ramp merges, and maybe even dealing with some of
the green nonsense Portland sprays on its streets.

Wow, that is totally so next level stuff.

It may not be next level for you. It certainly is for many people. (Can
you really say you don't see cyclists making mistakes?)

Complicated intersection? Are they somehow more complicated for bicycles than for cars? I guess I need to take the class to be able to spot a complicated intersection.

There certainly are intersections that are more complicated than others!
And many that are acceptable to cars are complicated for the typical
cyclist, specifically because the typical cyclist thinks everything must
be done from the far right edge of the road. I can't believe you haven't
observed that behavior.

I'm adamantly pro-education. I think it's weird that we have people who
argue against it.

I don't argue against education. I'm just tired of insufferable know-it-alls and ideologues. If it isn't the law, then its just opinion.

Hah! Well, that attitude negates math, science and engineering, doesn't it?

Is it really your opinion that "two feet plus three feet plus 8.5 feet"
is less than twelve feet?

The relevant question is "do I need to take the lane to prevent unsafe passing." Usually not. Cars just go around, crossing the center line. Again, in cramped quarters, I'll take the lane for as long as I need it, which is generally not long.

And, BTW, taking the lane doesn't prevent unsafe passing unless you are dealing with compliant drivers. I've been lane center and gotten passed many times within inches with on-coming traffic on narrow roads. There are many non-compliant drivers -- more in certain areas than others -- which was my point.

-- Jay Beattie.

What I find disturbing is cars passing me on blind turns. I always figured on taking the lane when it was unsafe for cars to pass under any conditions but soon learned that there aren't any conditions when a car won't pass a bicycle.


Taking the lane works with compliant drivers. Ass***** will pass you anywhere, even on blind corners with on-coming traffic. It is truly amazing.. Believing you can control traffic in these areas is delusional.


But is the solution really to ride at far right where they're tempted to
squeeze by with inches to spare, and where you have no room to the right
to dodge them if necessary?

I don't think so.


--
- Frank Krygowski


See, there's a thingy called a map, Frank-boy, and on this map alternative routes, some of them with low-to-zero infernal combustion traffic, are marked. You'd be a lot calmer if you road these agreeable byways instead of trying to impose your will on a speeding truck loaded with 20 tons of granite or logs or sanitary towels.

Do you want your epigraph to read, "Franki-boy died for his right of way, taking the lane under a Big Mack hauling twenty tons of sanitary towels."?

Andre Jute
People will wonder aloud if you were transitioning to a female shrew
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