Better Braking?

On 2/3/2020 4:40 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Monday, February 3, 2020 at 9:11:47 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/2/2020 11:13 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, February 2, 2020 at 5:15:10 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/2/2020 7:11 PM, jbeattie wrote:

The OE direct mount brakes on my Trek stop well enough but have a slightly different feel than Ultegra dual pivot. Their reason for being is aerodynamics and light weight.

And everyone knows how critical aerodynamics are. Why, just look at how
Shimano AX absolutely transformed everyone's riding experience!

And light weight? Yep, pedaling your 180 pound bike+rider weight up a
hill is a completely different experience than pedaling your 179.9 pound
total bike+rider weight. That extra tenth of a pound absolutely sucks!
Thank God for 0.06% improvements!


Pfff. My Trek is a 15-16lb bike. It's like riding an eBike compared to my commuter-pig. Can't you tell the difference between light and heavy bikes? Riding blindfolded, I can tell the difference between all my bikes within one or two pedal strokes -- just before crashing. I love my super-light, modern racing bike for fast road riding, hanging in with the other, sputtering old former racers.

Focus, Jay! What are we going to talk about - the effect of a change in
weight, or you distinguishing the "feel" of your bikes?

I don't doubt you can detect the different "feel" of each bike you own.
I can do that with mine. But it has far more to do with frame geometry,
tire characteristics, center of gravity location, handlebar variations
etc. than it has to do with any weight difference.

A smart high school junior should be capable of understanding the
physical effect of a change of weight. The effects - speed vs power on
uphills, acceleration vs. force on the flat - depend on the percent
change in _total_ bike+rider weight or mass. And since you brought up
the weight savings of direct mount brakes vs. ordinary calipers, that
percent change is microscopic.

Want proof? The weight difference between a Shimano direct mount and a
comparable Shimano single bolt mount is about 56 grams per set. That's
two ounces. So do some blind tests. Have your son duct tape two ounces
of lead out of your sight at the fork crown of your favorite bike. Do
multiple test rides with and without that horrendous extra weight, at
random. I'm betting you couldn't tell when it's present or absent, just
like you can't feel the difference in weight of direct mount brakes.

0.06% is 0.06%, no matter how you advertise it.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank, direct mount brakes were for improved braking and better aerodynamics on TT bikes. It just turns out that they are lighter. If you don't understand the aerodynamics part you aren't riding fast enough to tell. So it doesn't matter to you. Don't talk about the weight as if that were the sum purpose of the direct mount brakes.

I was quoting Jay about the weight, so complain to him about that.

As to the aerodynamics: The human body on the bike is the source of the
great majority of the drag. Some of that drag is caused by clothing,
which means it's more sensible to get a jacket that fits perfectly than
to get a different front brake.

Rider position varies a lot, and can be improved with no change in
equipment, with benefits far greater than a brake change. Aero bars are
a big help, even if they add a bit of weight.

If you're going to change other hardware on the bike to make it more
aero, wheels are surely the place to start; but going too radical seems
to cause stability problems in crosswinds. After that ... I don't know,
maybe bar and stem?

All the points above can be found in multiple sources. But I've never
seen a source that said "Trying to reduce aero drag? Pay attention to
your brakes!" I'm not convinced the total aero difference between
otherwise comparable single bolt and direct mount brakes is even measurable.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Mon, 3 Feb 2020 16:11:42 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Monday, February 3, 2020 at 2:49:20 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 3 Feb 2020 07:12:47 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Monday, February 3, 2020 at 2:17:00 AM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 2 Feb 2020 20:15:06 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/2/2020 7:11 PM, jbeattie wrote:

The OE direct mount brakes on my Trek stop well enough but have a slightly different feel than Ultegra dual pivot. Their reason for being is aerodynamics and light weight.

And everyone knows how critical aerodynamics are. Why, just look at how
Shimano AX absolutely transformed everyone's riding experience!

And light weight? Yep, pedaling your 180 pound bike+rider weight up a
hill is a completely different experience than pedaling your 179.9 pound
total bike+rider weight. That extra tenth of a pound absolutely sucks!
Thank God for 0.06% improvements!

But Frank! It's NEW! and everyone knows that NEW is BETTER.....
O.K., it might cost a tiny bit more but just think, everyone will be
looking at you with envy (Pssst, he's got one of them there new
things...) and think of the bragging rights... "See, I was riding
along on my $3,000 bike there with the new thing on it..."

You have this weird fascination with price. Nobody I ride with buys anything as a status symbol -- and nobody pays OTC price. My Trek was pro-deal because I do work for the company, and most of my friends are in the industry. And even if I did pay full price for my bike, who cares? Why not have a bike that is fun to ride?

-- Jay Beattie.

Given that I am retired I think that some pre-occupation with prices
might be wise, but more important is the seeming allegation that one
must have an expensive bike to enjoy riding. You ask, "Why not have a
bike that is fun to ride?" and I might reply, "Why not have fun riding
a bike?"
--

Cheers,

John B.

I'm not saying you have to have an expensive bike to have fun. I'm saying that a stiff 16lb racing bike is a hoot when your racing friends up a climb or to a city limits sign -- or actually racing. You can love your beach-bomber or whatever, but having a bike that takes off when you hit the gas is fun. The price I paid for my Emonda was a blip on the financial radar. I ride with guys who have way more expensive bikes, although none of them paid full price either.

It's also fun having a bike that will bomb down a trail or carry luggage or that you can dump in the racks at work without worry (except for whacking the dyno light). I have a bunch of bikes and all are loved and used. I'm not trying to pry anyone's bike out of their cold dead hands. People can love whatever bike they want, but some bikes are more fun than others. Just like some cars, skis, monkey wrenches and frying pans are more fun than others. I even have a favorite pair of ski poles -- and a favorite dental floss.

-- Jay Beattie.

Strange. I have been using tools since I was a sub-teen and I can't
say that I ever had a favorite wrench, other than saying that the
proper size wrench (to fit the nut) was much to be admired. And while
I was a member of the high school ski team I can't remember having a
favorite pair of skis, or ski poles, other than having one pair for
downhill and another for cross country.

I asked my wife about favorite fry pans and she tells me that one uses
the correct pan for what one is doing and she has been cooking for
something like 60 years...

But perhaps we are disadvantaged in being able to enjoy skiing without
multiple sets of ski poles, or repairing things without a favorite
wrench or my wife without a favorite frying pan - I shall not tell her
that she is disadvantaged though as she already has a room full of
pots and pans and might want to buy even more :-)
--

Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 3 Feb 2020 19:40:43 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/3/2020 4:40 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Monday, February 3, 2020 at 9:11:47 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/2/2020 11:13 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, February 2, 2020 at 5:15:10 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/2/2020 7:11 PM, jbeattie wrote:

The OE direct mount brakes on my Trek stop well enough but have a slightly different feel than Ultegra dual pivot. Their reason for being is aerodynamics and light weight.

And everyone knows how critical aerodynamics are. Why, just look at how
Shimano AX absolutely transformed everyone's riding experience!

And light weight? Yep, pedaling your 180 pound bike+rider weight up a
hill is a completely different experience than pedaling your 179.9 pound
total bike+rider weight. That extra tenth of a pound absolutely sucks!
Thank God for 0.06% improvements!


Pfff. My Trek is a 15-16lb bike. It's like riding an eBike compared to my commuter-pig. Can't you tell the difference between light and heavy bikes? Riding blindfolded, I can tell the difference between all my bikes within one or two pedal strokes -- just before crashing. I love my super-light, modern racing bike for fast road riding, hanging in with the other, sputtering old former racers.

Focus, Jay! What are we going to talk about - the effect of a change in
weight, or you distinguishing the "feel" of your bikes?

I don't doubt you can detect the different "feel" of each bike you own.
I can do that with mine. But it has far more to do with frame geometry,
tire characteristics, center of gravity location, handlebar variations
etc. than it has to do with any weight difference.

A smart high school junior should be capable of understanding the
physical effect of a change of weight. The effects - speed vs power on
uphills, acceleration vs. force on the flat - depend on the percent
change in _total_ bike+rider weight or mass. And since you brought up
the weight savings of direct mount brakes vs. ordinary calipers, that
percent change is microscopic.

Want proof? The weight difference between a Shimano direct mount and a
comparable Shimano single bolt mount is about 56 grams per set. That's
two ounces. So do some blind tests. Have your son duct tape two ounces
of lead out of your sight at the fork crown of your favorite bike. Do
multiple test rides with and without that horrendous extra weight, at
random. I'm betting you couldn't tell when it's present or absent, just
like you can't feel the difference in weight of direct mount brakes.

0.06% is 0.06%, no matter how you advertise it.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank, direct mount brakes were for improved braking and better aerodynamics on TT bikes. It just turns out that they are lighter. If you don't understand the aerodynamics part you aren't riding fast enough to tell. So it doesn't matter to you. Don't talk about the weight as if that were the sum purpose of the direct mount brakes.

I was quoting Jay about the weight, so complain to him about that.

As to the aerodynamics: The human body on the bike is the source of the
great majority of the drag. Some of that drag is caused by clothing,
which means it's more sensible to get a jacket that fits perfectly than
to get a different front brake.

Rider position varies a lot, and can be improved with no change in
equipment, with benefits far greater than a brake change. Aero bars are
a big help, even if they add a bit of weight.

If you're going to change other hardware on the bike to make it more
aero, wheels are surely the place to start; but going too radical seems
to cause stability problems in crosswinds. After that ... I don't know,
maybe bar and stem?

All the points above can be found in multiple sources. But I've never
seen a source that said "Trying to reduce aero drag? Pay attention to
your brakes!" I'm not convinced the total aero difference between
otherwise comparable single bolt and direct mount brakes is even measurable.

You might be interested in
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/jst.12

Which says that on a level course some 90% of the retarding force on a
bicycle is wind resistance and nearly 70% of that 90% is the rider and
that after altering the rider's position the next greatest loss is the
rider's clothing.
--

Cheers,

John B.

On Tuesday, February 4, 2020 at 5:50:48 AM UTC+1, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 3 Feb 2020 19:40:43 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/3/2020 4:40 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Monday, February 3, 2020 at 9:11:47 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/2/2020 11:13 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, February 2, 2020 at 5:15:10 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/2/2020 7:11 PM, jbeattie wrote:

The OE direct mount brakes on my Trek stop well enough but have a slightly different feel than Ultegra dual pivot. Their reason for being is aerodynamics and light weight.

And everyone knows how critical aerodynamics are. Why, just look at how
Shimano AX absolutely transformed everyone's riding experience!

And light weight? Yep, pedaling your 180 pound bike+rider weight up a
hill is a completely different experience than pedaling your 179.9 pound
total bike+rider weight. That extra tenth of a pound absolutely sucks!
Thank God for 0.06% improvements!


Pfff. My Trek is a 15-16lb bike. It's like riding an eBike compared to my commuter-pig. Can't you tell the difference between light and heavy bikes? Riding blindfolded, I can tell the difference between all my bikes within one or two pedal strokes -- just before crashing. I love my super-light, modern racing bike for fast road riding, hanging in with the other, sputtering old former racers.

Focus, Jay! What are we going to talk about - the effect of a change in
weight, or you distinguishing the "feel" of your bikes?

I don't doubt you can detect the different "feel" of each bike you own.

On Monday, February 3, 2020 at 5:13:30 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 3 Feb 2020 16:11:42 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Monday, February 3, 2020 at 2:49:20 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 3 Feb 2020 07:12:47 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Monday, February 3, 2020 at 2:17:00 AM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 2 Feb 2020 20:15:06 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/2/2020 7:11 PM, jbeattie wrote:

The OE direct mount brakes on my Trek stop well enough but have a slightly different feel than Ultegra dual pivot. Their reason for being is aerodynamics and light weight.

And everyone knows how critical aerodynamics are. Why, just look at how
Shimano AX absolutely transformed everyone's riding experience!

And light weight? Yep, pedaling your 180 pound bike+rider weight up a
hill is a completely different experience than pedaling your 179.9 pound
total bike+rider weight. That extra tenth of a pound absolutely sucks!
Thank God for 0.06% improvements!

But Frank! It's NEW! and everyone knows that NEW is BETTER.....
O.K., it might cost a tiny bit more but just think, everyone will be
looking at you with envy (Pssst, he's got one of them there new
things...) and think of the bragging rights... "See, I was riding
along on my $3,000 bike there with the new thing on it..."

You have this weird fascination with price. Nobody I ride with buys anything as a status symbol -- and nobody pays OTC price. My Trek was pro-deal because I do work for the company, and most of my friends are in the industry. And even if I did pay full price for my bike, who cares? Why not have a bike that is fun to ride?

-- Jay Beattie.

Given that I am retired I think that some pre-occupation with prices
might be wise, but more important is the seeming allegation that one
must have an expensive bike to enjoy riding. You ask, "Why not have a
bike that is fun to ride?" and I might reply, "Why not have fun riding
a bike?"
--

Cheers,

John B.

I'm not saying you have to have an expensive bike to have fun. I'm saying that a stiff 16lb racing bike is a hoot when your racing friends up a climb or to a city limits sign -- or actually racing. You can love your beach-bomber or whatever, but having a bike that takes off when you hit the gas is fun. The price I paid for my Emonda was a blip on the financial radar. I ride with guys who have way more expensive bikes, although none of them paid full price either.

It's also fun having a bike that will bomb down a trail or carry luggage or that you can dump in the racks at work without worry (except for whacking the dyno light). I have a bunch of bikes and all are loved and used. I'm not trying to pry anyone's bike out of their cold dead hands. People can love whatever bike they want, but some bikes are more fun than others. Just like some cars, skis, monkey wrenches and frying pans are more fun than others. I even have a favorite pair of ski poles -- and a favorite dental floss.

-- Jay Beattie.

Strange. I have been using tools since I was a sub-teen and I can't
say that I ever had a favorite wrench, other than saying that the
proper size wrench (to fit the nut) was much to be admired. And while
I was a member of the high school ski team I can't remember having a
favorite pair of skis, or ski poles, other than having one pair for
downhill and another for cross country.

I asked my wife about favorite fry pans and she tells me that one uses
the correct pan for what one is doing and she has been cooking for
something like 60 years...

But perhaps we are disadvantaged in being able to enjoy skiing without
multiple sets of ski poles, or repairing things without a favorite
wrench or my wife without a favorite frying pan - I shall not tell her
that she is disadvantaged though as she already has a room full of
pots and pans and might want to buy even more :-)

O.K., just to get a base-line here, how about gas versus electric cook top? Straight razor versus triple-blade disposable? Flush toilet versus pit toilet? Do you have a favorite version of anything?

And why do you always frame things in a pejorative way, like "you can't enjoy skiing unless you have (gasp) multiple pairs of skis?" I enjoy cycling and skiing, but I enjoy them more when I'm on a certain bike (depending on terrain) or pair of skis (depending on snow). Don't you enjoy sitting in a more comfortable chair -- or is it presumptuous sitting on anything other than a three-leg milking stool? Do the restaurants in Thailand have only one menu item?

I have a favorite Crescent wrench with a nice padded handle that I found on the ground while riding. I have a favorite set of ski poles that are stiff with low swing weight and a generous strap (that broke, waaaah). I was skiing on Sunday, dodging all the dopes trying to get in a few runs before the Superbowl, and totally digging my favorite set of Portlund Ory-gun hand-made skis. https://shop.on3pskis.com/products/2020-jeffrey-108 Don't worry, I didn't pay that much -- but even if I did, so what? I got them at the "factory" years ago when it was about the size of a garage. I would have had fun on my other skis, too, but not as much fun. Some things just work better than others, or they're more fun to use than others. That doesn't mean that life is miserable without them.

BTW, ski racing for you must have been pretty relaxed. My son and his cohorts would complain about wax and edging -- let alone slalom versus GS skis. I'd give him too little edge bevel and he'd hook up in corners. Talk about fussy. His GS skis kept delaminating, and I was always epoxying them back together. Ah, the good old days.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Tuesday, February 4, 2020 at 4:24:40 PM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, February 3, 2020 at 5:13:30 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 3 Feb 2020 16:11:42 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Monday, February 3, 2020 at 2:49:20 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 3 Feb 2020 07:12:47 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Monday, February 3, 2020 at 2:17:00 AM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 2 Feb 2020 20:15:06 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/2/2020 7:11 PM, jbeattie wrote:

The OE direct mount brakes on my Trek stop well enough but have a slightly different feel than Ultegra dual pivot. Their reason for being is aerodynamics and light weight.

And everyone knows how critical aerodynamics are. Why, just look at how
Shimano AX absolutely transformed everyone's riding experience!

And light weight? Yep, pedaling your 180 pound bike+rider weight up a
hill is a completely different experience than pedaling your 179..9 pound
total bike+rider weight. That extra tenth of a pound absolutely sucks!
Thank God for 0.06% improvements!

But Frank! It's NEW! and everyone knows that NEW is BETTER.....
O.K., it might cost a tiny bit more but just think, everyone will be
looking at you with envy (Pssst, he's got one of them there new
things...) and think of the bragging rights... "See, I was riding
along on my $3,000 bike there with the new thing on it..."

You have this weird fascination with price. Nobody I ride with buys anything as a status symbol -- and nobody pays OTC price. My Trek was pro-deal because I do work for the company, and most of my friends are in the industry. And even if I did pay full price for my bike, who cares? Why not have a bike that is fun to ride?

-- Jay Beattie.

Given that I am retired I think that some pre-occupation with prices
might be wise, but more important is the seeming allegation that one
must have an expensive bike to enjoy riding. You ask, "Why not have a
bike that is fun to ride?" and I might reply, "Why not have fun riding
a bike?"
--

Cheers,

John B.

I'm not saying you have to have an expensive bike to have fun. I'm saying that a stiff 16lb racing bike is a hoot when your racing friends up a climb or to a city limits sign -- or actually racing. You can love your beach-bomber or whatever, but having a bike that takes off when you hit the gas is fun. The price I paid for my Emonda was a blip on the financial radar.. I ride with guys who have way more expensive bikes, although none of them paid full price either.

It's also fun having a bike that will bomb down a trail or carry luggage or that you can dump in the racks at work without worry (except for whacking the dyno light). I have a bunch of bikes and all are loved and used. I'm not trying to pry anyone's bike out of their cold dead hands. People can love whatever bike they want, but some bikes are more fun than others. Just like some cars, skis, monkey wrenches and frying pans are more fun than others. I even have a favorite pair of ski poles -- and a favorite dental floss.

-- Jay Beattie.

Strange. I have been using tools since I was a sub-teen and I can't
say that I ever had a favorite wrench, other than saying that the
proper size wrench (to fit the nut) was much to be admired. And while
I was a member of the high school ski team I can't remember having a
favorite pair of skis, or ski poles, other than having one pair for
downhill and another for cross country.

I asked my wife about favorite fry pans and she tells me that one uses
the correct pan for what one is doing and she has been cooking for
something like 60 years...

But perhaps we are disadvantaged in being able to enjoy skiing without
multiple sets of ski poles, or repairing things without a favorite
wrench or my wife without a favorite frying pan - I shall not tell her
that she is disadvantaged though as she already has a room full of
pots and pans and might want to buy even more :-)

O.K., just to get a base-line here, how about gas versus electric cook top? Straight razor versus triple-blade disposable? Flush toilet versus pit toilet? Do you have a favorite version of anything?

And why do you always frame things in a pejorative way, like "you can't enjoy skiing unless you have (gasp) multiple pairs of skis?" I enjoy cycling and skiing, but I enjoy them more when I'm on a certain bike (depending on terrain) or pair of skis (depending on snow). Don't you enjoy sitting in a more comfortable chair -- or is it presumptuous sitting on anything other than a three-leg milking stool? Do the restaurants in Thailand have only one menu item?

I have a favorite Crescent wrench with a nice padded handle that I found on the ground while riding. I have a favorite set of ski poles that are stiff with low swing weight and a generous strap (that broke, waaaah). I was skiing on Sunday, dodging all the dopes trying to get in a few runs before the Superbowl, and totally digging my favorite set of Portlund Ory-gun hand-made skis. https://shop.on3pskis.com/products/2020-jeffrey-108 Don't worry, I didn't pay that much -- but even if I did, so what? I got them at the "factory" years ago when it was about the size of a garage. I would have had fun on my other skis, too, but not as much fun. Some things just work better than others, or they're more fun to use than others. That doesn't mean that life is miserable without them.

BTW, ski racing for you must have been pretty relaxed. My son and his cohorts would complain about wax and edging -- let alone slalom versus GS skis.. I'd give him too little edge bevel and he'd hook up in corners. Talk about fussy. His GS skis kept delaminating, and I was always epoxying them back together. Ah, the good old days.

-- Jay Beattie.

We have this commercial running here in the Netherlands where a guy is asked what he like to drink, what suit, what haircut or what house he likes. He answers 'oh it doesn't matter' and see what he gets. That is John or Frank ;-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZXW5pxxBHY

Lou

On 2/4/2020 10:24 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, February 3, 2020 at 5:13:30 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 3 Feb 2020 16:11:42 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Monday, February 3, 2020 at 2:49:20 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 3 Feb 2020 07:12:47 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Monday, February 3, 2020 at 2:17:00 AM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 2 Feb 2020 20:15:06 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/2/2020 7:11 PM, jbeattie wrote:

The OE direct mount brakes on my Trek stop well enough but have a slightly different feel than Ultegra dual pivot. Their reason for being is aerodynamics and light weight.

And everyone knows how critical aerodynamics are. Why, just look at how
Shimano AX absolutely transformed everyone's riding experience!

And light weight? Yep, pedaling your 180 pound bike+rider weight up a
hill is a completely different experience than pedaling your 179.9 pound
total bike+rider weight. That extra tenth of a pound absolutely sucks!
Thank God for 0.06% improvements!

But Frank! It's NEW! and everyone knows that NEW is BETTER.....
O.K., it might cost a tiny bit more but just think, everyone will be
looking at you with envy (Pssst, he's got one of them there new
things...) and think of the bragging rights... "See, I was riding
along on my $3,000 bike there with the new thing on it..."

You have this weird fascination with price. Nobody I ride with buys anything as a status symbol -- and nobody pays OTC price. My Trek was pro-deal because I do work for the company, and most of my friends are in the industry. And even if I did pay full price for my bike, who cares? Why not have a bike that is fun to ride?

-- Jay Beattie.

Given that I am retired I think that some pre-occupation with prices
might be wise, but more important is the seeming allegation that one
must have an expensive bike to enjoy riding. You ask, "Why not have a
bike that is fun to ride?" and I might reply, "Why not have fun riding
a bike?"
--

Cheers,

John B.

I'm not saying you have to have an expensive bike to have fun. I'm saying that a stiff 16lb racing bike is a hoot when your racing friends up a climb or to a city limits sign -- or actually racing. You can love your beach-bomber or whatever, but having a bike that takes off when you hit the gas is fun. The price I paid for my Emonda was a blip on the financial radar. I ride with guys who have way more expensive bikes, although none of them paid full price either.

It's also fun having a bike that will bomb down a trail or carry luggage or that you can dump in the racks at work without worry (except for whacking the dyno light). I have a bunch of bikes and all are loved and used. I'm not trying to pry anyone's bike out of their cold dead hands. People can love whatever bike they want, but some bikes are more fun than others. Just like some cars, skis, monkey wrenches and frying pans are more fun than others. I even have a favorite pair of ski poles -- and a favorite dental floss.

-- Jay Beattie.

Strange. I have been using tools since I was a sub-teen and I can't
say that I ever had a favorite wrench, other than saying that the
proper size wrench (to fit the nut) was much to be admired. And while
I was a member of the high school ski team I can't remember having a
favorite pair of skis, or ski poles, other than having one pair for
downhill and another for cross country.

I asked my wife about favorite fry pans and she tells me that one uses
the correct pan for what one is doing and she has been cooking for
something like 60 years...

But perhaps we are disadvantaged in being able to enjoy skiing without
multiple sets of ski poles, or repairing things without a favorite
wrench or my wife without a favorite frying pan - I shall not tell her
that she is disadvantaged though as she already has a room full of
pots and pans and might want to buy even more :-)

O.K., just to get a base-line here, how about gas versus electric cook top? Straight razor versus triple-blade disposable? Flush toilet versus pit toilet? Do you have a favorite version of anything?

And why do you always frame things in a pejorative way, like "you can't enjoy skiing unless you have (gasp) multiple pairs of skis?" I enjoy cycling and skiing, but I enjoy them more when I'm on a certain bike (depending on terrain) or pair of skis (depending on snow). Don't you enjoy sitting in a more comfortable chair -- or is it presumptuous sitting on anything other than a three-leg milking stool? Do the restaurants in Thailand have only one menu item?

I have a favorite Crescent wrench with a nice padded handle that I found on the ground while riding. I have a favorite set of ski poles that are stiff with low swing weight and a generous strap (that broke, waaaah). I was skiing on Sunday, dodging all the dopes trying to get in a few runs before the Superbowl, and totally digging my favorite set of Portlund Ory-gun hand-made skis. https://shop.on3pskis.com/products/2020-jeffrey-108 Don't worry, I didn't pay that much -- but even if I did, so what? I got them at the "factory" years ago when it was about the size of a garage. I would have had fun on my other skis, too, but not as much fun. Some things just work better than others, or they're more fun to use than others. That doesn't mean that life is miserable without them.

BTW, ski racing for you must have been pretty relaxed. My son and his cohorts would complain about wax and edging -- let alone slalom versus GS skis. I'd give him too little edge bevel and he'd hook up in corners. Talk about fussy. His GS skis kept delaminating, and I was always epoxying them back together. Ah, the good old days.

-- Jay Beattie.



https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/...al-to-Extremes

That's the what. The why plumb evades me...

On 2/4/2020 3:26 AM, wrote:
If you want to build an aero bike with calipers you put direct mount brakes on.

No other kind is permitted!! Because there's that 0.002% benefit from
those brakes!!

It is not that if I want to make a non aero bike more aero the first thing to do is putting direct mount brakes on. On the other hand there are no downsides to direct mount brakes so why the hell.

"There are no downsides" indicates you're sucked into the promotion,
and/or not thinking very hard.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tuesday, February 4, 2020 at 8:25:27 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/4/2020 3:26 AM, wrote:
If you want to build an aero bike with calipers you put direct mount brakes on.

No other kind is permitted!! Because there's that 0.002% benefit from
those brakes!!

It is not that if I want to make a non aero bike more aero the first thing to do is putting direct mount brakes on. On the other hand there are no downsides to direct mount brakes so why the hell.

"There are no downsides" indicates you're sucked into the promotion,
and/or not thinking very hard.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Sucked into the promotion? What are the downsides, educate me. You need a special frame for them is the wrong answer.

Lou

Lou

On Tuesday, February 4, 2020 at 10:12:32 PM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, February 4, 2020 at 11:34:26 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Tuesday, February 4, 2020 at 8:25:27 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/4/2020 3:26 AM, wrote:
If you want to build an aero bike with calipers you put direct mount brakes on.

No other kind is permitted!! Because there's that 0.002% benefit from
those brakes!!

It is not that if I want to make a non aero bike more aero the first thing to do is putting direct mount brakes on. On the other hand there are no downsides to direct mount brakes so why the hell.

"There are no downsides" indicates you're sucked into the promotion,
and/or not thinking very hard.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Sucked into the promotion? What are the downsides, educate me. You need a special frame for them is the wrong answer.

And what promotion? TK had to ask what they were, so the promotion apparently is not working. Big Direct Mount is apparently failing to enthrall the weak-minded consumers.

And Frank, why do you constantly criticize equipment you've never tried and probably haven't even seen in person? I ride direct mount brakes on dry days. They're great, and in fact, they are better than ANY brake you currently own. Better than cantilevers, better than v-brakes, better than ordinary dual pivots. They are second only to disc brakes because like all rim brakes, they are rim lathes. Otherwise, they're better than the Beatles. I get up every morning just to see them there on my Trek in the garage -- as I jump on my commuter pig and head for the icy streets.

Have you tried Di2? No. CF wheels? No. Garmin anything? No. Discs? No. What equipment made in the last twenty years (apart from tires and chains) have you tried? Do you even have STI? A cellphone? If you have an Amish beard, I'll scream.

Frank's bike club: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d0/d4...de657ecdd7.jpg

-- Jay Beattie.

I considered buying my Canyon Aeroad for two years reading several test in TOUR magazin where this bike scored top notes again and again in best bang for your buck, comfort and aero. The measured aero advantage was about 20-30 Watt at a speed of 40 km/hr compared to a regular top end bike like my Canyon CF SLX with non aero wheels, my super light climbing bike. At that time I didn't really know what 20 Watts would mean. After riding a season with a power meter I knew that 15-20 Watt is significant (I ride at a speed between 34-38 km/hr when I'm pushing on the flats). So I decided to go for it. Then I had the choice between a disk brake model and a rim brake model. I decided for the rim brake model because this bike would be used on the flats in dry conditions. The rim brake model had direct mount brakes which up to then I didn't pay much attention to so a did some research and found out that they were as common as 'normal' single/dual pivot rim brakes. (Shimano and Campagnolo have direct mount rim brakes at almost every component level which are all interchangeable). They have more tyre clearance (is good), and from the design I can understand that the would be stiffer (is good) and from their position on the frame more aero (is also good). Significant? I don't know and I couldn't care less. They were the rim brakes that came with that model, they were readily available, will last a lifetime like all my other brakes and theoretically work better. So what is not to like. I think instead of the normal single/dual pivots rim brakes they should have invented these but I can't change history. I sucked into promotion? Please give me a break. It is the best road bike for my kind of riding I ever owned.

Lou