Groupsets

On Saturday, 6 June 2020 17:59:53 UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/6/2020 1:48 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, June 6, 2020 at 9:43:53 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/6/2020 3:42 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, June 6, 2020 at 2:40:59 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/5/2020 12:41 PM, wrote:
On Friday, June 5, 2020 at 5:54:54 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/4/2020 9:54 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, June 4, 2020 at 5:38:21 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/4/2020 6:19 PM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

DT shifters and five speed are fashion -- conspicuous contrarianism.

Really? At what point in time did my good friend, who has ridden her
Trek since the 1980s, transition from "I just love this bike" to "I'm
only doing this to be contrarian"?

I use all my 11 cassette cogs. I could give one up, but why? My little lunch ride today was our standard loop of 16 miles and 1600 feet of climbing, full speed trying to keep up with my buddy. Except for the roll into town (to see the post-riot damage), everything was some degree of up or down. I shifted my way nicely up and down the cassette, enjoying each and every cog.

I'm glad you love those cute little things, but: What did you have
before the 11? Was it a 10? Was there really a time you said "Damn, I
just hate that there are only ten cogs back there! When, oh when, will
they invent an 11?"

I doubt it. You probably told your ten cogs "You are all individuals,
but I love each of you equally!"

Seriously, I _never_ heard a cyclist complain about having the maximum
number of cogs then on the market. But every time the industry did the
N+1 move, there was quiet pride by the new owners who showed off their
N+1 and slight envy by the guys who had only N.

That was GM's 1960s tactic: "Wouldn't you rather have THIS year's model?"


You have all these imagined scenarios. I don't know anyone who went out and bought 11sp simply because it became available. I was riding 10sp until my wife drove my Supersix under a low overhang when it was up on a roof rack. I also had 10sp on my CAAD 9, but that went off to Utah with my son. I know I had some eight speed shifters, and I think I put those on my sons old beater Windsor. My first STI bike was eight speed.

I had 9 speed on my commuter, but I wanted to shift to hydraulic discs, so I went to 11sp. That was probably a mistake, and I should have found some 9speed hydraulic levers. Shimano does make them. So I have some redundant 9sp Tiagra levers sitting in a box downstairs.

I had 7 speed on my old touring bike, which I did upgrade to eight speed STI because the bike was spec'd with bar-ends, which I hate. I gave that bike away. My tandem had seven or eight speed ERGO. I sold that. I have one-speed on my track bike.

Anyway, the difference between 10 and 11 is, of course, one. I was riding 10sp 12-25/26 cassette, so I got a 28 on the 11sp. I like that 28 a lot these days. And I get to keep all my close range gears. What's not to like?

Jay, I'm not saying masses of people threw away 10 speed bikes when 11s
came out.

But I am saying that if someone drove into a garage and wrecked an 8
speed they never complained about, they would buy a 9 speed to replace
it. Repeat for 10, 11 and now perhaps 12.

The important point is this: They were not unhappy with N gears until
N+1 came out. But by golly, when the opportunity arose, they would find
some way to justify N+1.

They just went with the flow. It is easier today to get 11 speed stuff then 7 speed. Don't over analyze this.

But for many, many cyclists the 'analyzing' amounts to "Do I need a new
bike because I have less than 11 cogs? Do I need a new bike because mine
has downtube shifters?" And their answer is "No, I like my bike fine.. It
works for me." IOW, they made a rational decision based on the
advantages of what's new vs. the disadvantages of spending for a new bike.

But Jay has said those people are motivated by conspicuous
contrarianism, which is false. You have implied those people are in
danger in traffic, or ... what? When they race in The Hell of the North?
That just doesn't matter to most people.

Fact is, there are countless people who have bikes they loved in 1985,
and they still love those bikes. They should not be mocked or made
nervous about their safety. If their stuff works for them, leave them
alone.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Should be mocked or made nervous about their safety? You draw strange conclusions. I never said or implied that. I only said that their are situations that it is not wise to shift with a DT shifter and it doesn't matter with a brifter. If you don't shift in that situation you are not in danger with DT shifter.

Good. We agree. And that's what everyone does. That benefit of brifters
does exist, but it is negligible in almost all situations.

Negligible to you -- not to me. We all place different a value on not having to reach down and shift. I'm tall. I like to climb out of the saddle, and am often being dragged around by other riders. Being able to shift from standing and being able to shift a lot without taking my hands off the bars is very valuable and not negligible to me, particularly gravel riding. IMO, no reasonable person would choose DT shifters for a new bike and certainly not friction shifters. You would have to be crazy or so worried about component failure that convenience and usability become irrelevant. I'd use DT shifters on some commuter beater if that's all I had.

Also, the crushing possibility of component failure is not eliminated by using classic equipment. I've broken a half-dozen classic cranks (although not on tour) as well as pedals, bars, seat posts, axles, chains (5sp!), BBs, freewheels and on and on. I've told this story before, but I woke up a bike shop owner in Astoria on a Sunday morning in 1976 to buy a pedal after breaking one coming up the coast from CA. I bought a 5sp chain from a Coast to Coast store in the middle of the Olympic Penninsula. I bought a replacement freewheel from someone in nowhere southern Illinois. I found a bolt at a marina at Caples Lake on Carson Pass to replace a broken seat clamp bolt. I actually had the DT shifters fall off a Cannondale in the middle of a race and had to single-speed it to the finish (Cannondale used a center stud to mount its DT bosses -- it corroded and failed.) BTW, I didn't get a ride anywhere for any of these failures. Try riding a loaded touring bike with one pedal. My ride
ending failures have been when I broke myself.

In all these years, the one thing I have never broken is a STI shifter. My son had a relatively new left shifter fail (leaving him with a five speed, much to my delight), but that's the only one in the family. I've had some sticky shifters and a broken STI cable -- that conveniently broke when I was a block from the Bike Gallery. It took ten minutes out of my ride. Admittedly, my eight speed STI was removed after 10 or more years when I got a replacement frame, so it may have failed in another ten or so years. I used my 9speed for 15 or more years on my commuter bike, and it never failed -- but like I said, I switched to hydro discs and got new levers. So it might have failed in another ten years. Who knows.

Since I'm rambling here, the last near ride ending failure was running a rear tire down to the cord. I had to detour to a bike shop on my way out to the Gorge. If I had looked at the tire before getting on my bike, I could have avoided that. The good part is that the tread wore off evenly all the way around, indicating I had built a nice round wheel.

-- Jay Beattie.




You make good points.
And to clarify I wasn't advocating 'classic' for its own
sake. Especially where durability matters, cassette hubs are
it, freewheel axles suck.

My original point was that where your life may depend on
moving that bike, a seven chain can be riveted surely and
swiftly; skinnier ones not so much.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

I wonder if Joerg's nail and rock works on 9-speed and above chains? LOL

Cheers

On Sat, 06 Jun 2020 12:04:12 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

Frank Krygowski writes:

On 6/5/2020 4:30 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, June 5, 2020 at 12:55:32 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
writes:

On Thursday, June 4, 2020 at 6:33:04 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
writes:

On Thursday, June 4, 2020 at 12:30:27 AM UTC-7, Dennis Davis wrote:
In article ,
jbeattie wrote:

...

I think that the curmudgeon handbook, chapter six, has a lengthy
discussion of the benefits of DT friction shifters. IIRC,
they a (1) slow and imprecise shifting, (2) missed shifts,
(3) conspicuous contrarianism, (4) longevity like an incurable
skin condition, (5) inconvenient location, and (6) conspicuous
contrarianism. Clearly superior to any STI/Ergo like system.

A double dose of "conspicuous contrarianism" ("3" and "6"). Isn't
that overkill?

Perhaps (6) is better replaced by:

(6) Requires levels of skill not present in modern cyclists.


...I'm planning to put some Simplex Retrofriction downtube levers on
my next bike...
--
Dennis Davis

I think more accurate would be "requires total lack of skills that
modern cyclists have." Anyone that rides downtube shifters or
centerpull brakes in this day and age is either penniless or stupid or
both.

Thanks, Tom. I'm not penniless, I must be stupid.

Then explain how you have a downtube shifter bike? Unless you make a
effort to collect classic bikes you can't even find downtube shifters
anymore. I had a hard enough time getting bar ends for my touring
bike. And I've never even used it and it is sitting in the backyard

I bought one in 1978, still ride it. Some parts are new.

Wow, all my road bikes from the '70s broke or got stolen -- or
both.

Wow indeed! My family had precisely one bike stolen. My kid, when
about 11, was supposed to chain his bike to our carport. Instead he
just looped the chain over the crank.

Some years ago I very nearly lost my ancient bicycle. At the time it
had a sleazy Ofmega freewheel hub, due to my reluctance to respace the
frame. The hub was in the process of self destructing. When I applied
enough torque the rear axle would shift in the dropouts, and the wheel
would bump into the right chainstay. I never took it apart to figure
out what was broken.

But at the time it was the middle of winter, and I was lazy and didn't
deal with it. One day I rode a short distance to a yoga class in the
city center, and locked my bike in a large courtyard outside. When I
came out I unlocked it, just when someone told me I had left a
waterbottle behind.

I could have brought by bike inside, or locked it back up. But, since I
planned to be gone considerably less than a minute I foolishly just
leaned it against the building. When I returned some scruffy looking
dude was beginning to ride away on my bicycle. Naturally I yelled at
him, and took off running. He stood and mashed down on the pedal -- and
promptly dumped my bike in the middle of the icy courtyard, at which
point he jumped up and ran away.

Shortly afterward I spread the rear dropouts, and replaced the wheel
with one built on a Shimano cassette hub.

A rather unique anti theft feature :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

On 6/6/2020 6:49 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, 6 June 2020 12:04:16 UTC-4, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski writes:

On 6/5/2020 4:30 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, June 5, 2020 at 12:55:32 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
writes:

On Thursday, June 4, 2020 at 6:33:04 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
writes:

On Thursday, June 4, 2020 at 12:30:27 AM UTC-7, Dennis Davis wrote:
In article ,
jbeattie wrote:

...

I think that the curmudgeon handbook, chapter six, has a lengthy
discussion of the benefits of DT friction shifters. IIRC,
they a (1) slow and imprecise shifting, (2) missed shifts,
(3) conspicuous contrarianism, (4) longevity like an incurable
skin condition, (5) inconvenient location, and (6) conspicuous
contrarianism. Clearly superior to any STI/Ergo like system.

A double dose of "conspicuous contrarianism" ("3" and "6"). Isn't
that overkill?

Perhaps (6) is better replaced by:

(6) Requires levels of skill not present in modern cyclists.


...I'm planning to put some Simplex Retrofriction downtube levers on
my next bike...
--
Dennis Davis

I think more accurate would be "requires total lack of skills that
modern cyclists have." Anyone that rides downtube shifters or
centerpull brakes in this day and age is either penniless or stupid or
both.

Thanks, Tom. I'm not penniless, I must be stupid.

Then explain how you have a downtube shifter bike? Unless you make a
effort to collect classic bikes you can't even find downtube shifters
anymore. I had a hard enough time getting bar ends for my touring
bike. And I've never even used it and it is sitting in the backyard

I bought one in 1978, still ride it. Some parts are new.

Wow, all my road bikes from the '70s broke or got stolen -- or
both.

Wow indeed! My family had precisely one bike stolen. My kid, when
about 11, was supposed to chain his bike to our carport. Instead he
just looped the chain over the crank.

Some years ago I very nearly lost my ancient bicycle. At the time it
had a sleazy Ofmega freewheel hub, due to my reluctance to respace the
frame. The hub was in the process of self destructing. When I applied
enough torque the rear axle would shift in the dropouts, and the wheel
would bump into the right chainstay. I never took it apart to figure
out what was broken.

But at the time it was the middle of winter, and I was lazy and didn't
deal with it. One day I rode a short distance to a yoga class in the
city center, and locked my bike in a large courtyard outside. When I
came out I unlocked it, just when someone told me I had left a
waterbottle behind.

I could have brought by bike inside, or locked it back up. But, since I
planned to be gone considerably less than a minute I foolishly just
leaned it against the building. When I returned some scruffy looking
dude was beginning to ride away on my bicycle. Naturally I yelled at
him, and took off running. He stood and mashed down on the pedal -- and
promptly dumped my bike in the middle of the icy courtyard, at which
point he jumped up and ran away.

Shortly afterward I spread the rear dropouts, and replaced the wheel
with one built on a Shimano cassette hub.

--

I had a bicycle stolen that I was off of for a whopping THIRTY SECONDS. Leaned the bike against a wall, walked to a recessed door, handed a waiting bank manager a check, turned around to get on the bike and it was gone never to be seen again. Lock it or lose it.

Back in the 1970s, an acquaintance told me sad tale. This guy was a
pretty avid racer and had just taken delivery of a new custom bike with
top tier equipment.

A friendly guy at a race was praising it highly, admiring many of its
features. After conversing a while, he asked the owner if he could
briefly try it out. The owner said sure.

The friendly guy got on the bike, rode maybe 20 yards, turned around and
waved, then sprinted off. My guy never saw his bike again.

Be careful out there.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 6/6/2020 2:48 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, June 6, 2020 at 9:43:53 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/6/2020 3:42 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, June 6, 2020 at 2:40:59 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/5/2020 12:41 PM, wrote:
On Friday, June 5, 2020 at 5:54:54 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/4/2020 9:54 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, June 4, 2020 at 5:38:21 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/4/2020 6:19 PM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

DT shifters and five speed are fashion -- conspicuous contrarianism.

Really? At what point in time did my good friend, who has ridden her
Trek since the 1980s, transition from "I just love this bike" to "I'm
only doing this to be contrarian"?

I use all my 11 cassette cogs. I could give one up, but why? My little lunch ride today was our standard loop of 16 miles and 1600 feet of climbing, full speed trying to keep up with my buddy. Except for the roll into town (to see the post-riot damage), everything was some degree of up or down. I shifted my way nicely up and down the cassette, enjoying each and every cog.

I'm glad you love those cute little things, but: What did you have
before the 11? Was it a 10? Was there really a time you said "Damn, I
just hate that there are only ten cogs back there! When, oh when, will
they invent an 11?"

I doubt it. You probably told your ten cogs "You are all individuals,
but I love each of you equally!"

Seriously, I _never_ heard a cyclist complain about having the maximum
number of cogs then on the market. But every time the industry did the
N+1 move, there was quiet pride by the new owners who showed off their
N+1 and slight envy by the guys who had only N.

That was GM's 1960s tactic: "Wouldn't you rather have THIS year's model?"


You have all these imagined scenarios. I don't know anyone who went out and bought 11sp simply because it became available. I was riding 10sp until my wife drove my Supersix under a low overhang when it was up on a roof rack. I also had 10sp on my CAAD 9, but that went off to Utah with my son. I know I had some eight speed shifters, and I think I put those on my sons old beater Windsor. My first STI bike was eight speed.

I had 9 speed on my commuter, but I wanted to shift to hydraulic discs, so I went to 11sp. That was probably a mistake, and I should have found some 9speed hydraulic levers. Shimano does make them. So I have some redundant 9sp Tiagra levers sitting in a box downstairs.

I had 7 speed on my old touring bike, which I did upgrade to eight speed STI because the bike was spec'd with bar-ends, which I hate. I gave that bike away. My tandem had seven or eight speed ERGO. I sold that. I have one-speed on my track bike.

Anyway, the difference between 10 and 11 is, of course, one. I was riding 10sp 12-25/26 cassette, so I got a 28 on the 11sp. I like that 28 a lot these days. And I get to keep all my close range gears. What's not to like?

Jay, I'm not saying masses of people threw away 10 speed bikes when 11s
came out.

But I am saying that if someone drove into a garage and wrecked an 8
speed they never complained about, they would buy a 9 speed to replace
it. Repeat for 10, 11 and now perhaps 12.

The important point is this: They were not unhappy with N gears until
N+1 came out. But by golly, when the opportunity arose, they would find
some way to justify N+1.

They just went with the flow. It is easier today to get 11 speed stuff then 7 speed. Don't over analyze this.

But for many, many cyclists the 'analyzing' amounts to "Do I need a new
bike because I have less than 11 cogs? Do I need a new bike because mine
has downtube shifters?" And their answer is "No, I like my bike fine. It
works for me." IOW, they made a rational decision based on the
advantages of what's new vs. the disadvantages of spending for a new bike.

But Jay has said those people are motivated by conspicuous
contrarianism, which is false. You have implied those people are in
danger in traffic, or ... what? When they race in The Hell of the North?
That just doesn't matter to most people.

Fact is, there are countless people who have bikes they loved in 1985,
and they still love those bikes. They should not be mocked or made
nervous about their safety. If their stuff works for them, leave them
alone.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Should be mocked or made nervous about their safety? You draw strange conclusions. I never said or implied that. I only said that their are situations that it is not wise to shift with a DT shifter and it doesn't matter with a brifter. If you don't shift in that situation you are not in danger with DT shifter.

Good. We agree. And that's what everyone does. That benefit of brifters
does exist, but it is negligible in almost all situations.

Negligible to you -- not to me.

Right. Different situations call for different priorities. But as I
said, I think one touted advantage (shifting in traffic without moving
one's hands) is negligible for most cyclists. I certainly never heard
anyone complain about the problem in the era of downtube shifters. And
brifters may now be necessary for racing, but very, very few cyclists race.

We all place different a value on not having to reach down and shift. I'm tall. I like to climb out of the saddle, and am often being dragged around by other riders. Being able to shift from standing and being able to shift a lot without taking my hands off the bars is very valuable and not negligible to me, particularly gravel riding.

Right, different priorities. But in all this discussion, please keep in
mind that I do _not_ like downtube shifters. Remember? I'm the guy who
said he converted his bikes to bar ends.

For me, the final straw occurred while commuting to work. I got the
bike, my first decent one, by trading. It was a bit small for me. One
day I realized I was having to do a semi pushup each time I shifted. I
got bar ends and was happy.

IMO, no reasonable person would choose DT shifters for a new bike...

OK, that's a little extreme, Jay.

We can and should discuss advantages and disadvantages. But allow people
their priorities, please! They are not unreasonable just because their
criteria don't match yours.

Also, the crushing possibility of component failure is not eliminated by using classic equipment.

Of course! That's especially true if a person chooses lightweight
classic equipment. But please note, I was also emphasizing repairability
on the road.

My only near-disable incident happened while climbing a monstrously
steep hill just north of the Ohio River. Nearing the top, I tried to
shift into my biggest rear cog and my cable snapped at the bar end
shifter. I actually had a spare cable, but it was too short. (My cables
run under the bar tape and my bike has a long wheelbase.) I ended up
tying the new cable (fed into the shifter end) to the old cable (running
from the derailleur end) to get enough length. Turns out tying cables
together is very, very difficult - at least for me. I now make sure I
have an extra long cable in that bike's bag. Also in the tandem's bag.

Every other problem I've had on the road I've fixed reasonably quickly
and ridden on. I value that highly.

In all these years, the one thing I have never broken is a STI shifter.

Hey, I can say the exact same thing! :-)

But I've helped several friends get theirs shifting again. One was on a
brand new bike, delivery taken the day before a week long tour. Not that
I knew what was wrong or knew what I was doing. I just kept tugging on
the cable while working the shifter, and eventually it came to life. The
other was on a bike that had not been ridden for quite a while. Half an
hour of flushing with various sprays got that one going.

Of course, I've never broken a bar end shifter. But I have disassembled
those for a thorough re-lube. They can be understood by a mechanic of
average skill.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 6/6/2020 4:36 PM, wrote:


I too was rather put aback by a broken STI cable. Not only have I never had one I have never even heard of one. And I don't even know how you could get one.

They've been discussed here in the past, specifically about how to dig
the broken end out of the lever.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sat, 6 Jun 2020 12:43:50 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 6/6/2020 3:42 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, June 6, 2020 at 2:40:59 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/5/2020 12:41 PM, wrote:
On Friday, June 5, 2020 at 5:54:54 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/4/2020 9:54 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, June 4, 2020 at 5:38:21 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/4/2020 6:19 PM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

DT shifters and five speed are fashion -- conspicuous contrarianism.

Really? At what point in time did my good friend, who has ridden her
Trek since the 1980s, transition from "I just love this bike" to "I'm
only doing this to be contrarian"?

I use all my 11 cassette cogs. I could give one up, but why? My little lunch ride today was our standard loop of 16 miles and 1600 feet of climbing, full speed trying to keep up with my buddy. Except for the roll into town (to see the post-riot damage), everything was some degree of up or down. I shifted my way nicely up and down the cassette, enjoying each and every cog.

I'm glad you love those cute little things, but: What did you have
before the 11? Was it a 10? Was there really a time you said "Damn, I
just hate that there are only ten cogs back there! When, oh when, will
they invent an 11?"

I doubt it. You probably told your ten cogs "You are all individuals,
but I love each of you equally!"

Seriously, I _never_ heard a cyclist complain about having the maximum
number of cogs then on the market. But every time the industry did the
N+1 move, there was quiet pride by the new owners who showed off their
N+1 and slight envy by the guys who had only N.

That was GM's 1960s tactic: "Wouldn't you rather have THIS year's model?"


You have all these imagined scenarios. I don't know anyone who went out and bought 11sp simply because it became available. I was riding 10sp until my wife drove my Supersix under a low overhang when it was up on a roof rack. I also had 10sp on my CAAD 9, but that went off to Utah with my son. I know I had some eight speed shifters, and I think I put those on my sons old beater Windsor. My first STI bike was eight speed.

I had 9 speed on my commuter, but I wanted to shift to hydraulic discs, so I went to 11sp. That was probably a mistake, and I should have found some 9speed hydraulic levers. Shimano does make them. So I have some redundant 9sp Tiagra levers sitting in a box downstairs.

I had 7 speed on my old touring bike, which I did upgrade to eight speed STI because the bike was spec'd with bar-ends, which I hate. I gave that bike away. My tandem had seven or eight speed ERGO. I sold that. I have one-speed on my track bike.

Anyway, the difference between 10 and 11 is, of course, one. I was riding 10sp 12-25/26 cassette, so I got a 28 on the 11sp. I like that 28 a lot these days. And I get to keep all my close range gears. What's not to like?

Jay, I'm not saying masses of people threw away 10 speed bikes when 11s
came out.

But I am saying that if someone drove into a garage and wrecked an 8
speed they never complained about, they would buy a 9 speed to replace
it. Repeat for 10, 11 and now perhaps 12.

The important point is this: They were not unhappy with N gears until
N+1 came out. But by golly, when the opportunity arose, they would find
some way to justify N+1.

They just went with the flow. It is easier today to get 11 speed stuff then 7 speed. Don't over analyze this.

But for many, many cyclists the 'analyzing' amounts to "Do I need a new
bike because I have less than 11 cogs? Do I need a new bike because mine
has downtube shifters?" And their answer is "No, I like my bike fine. It
works for me." IOW, they made a rational decision based on the
advantages of what's new vs. the disadvantages of spending for a new bike.

But Jay has said those people are motivated by conspicuous
contrarianism, which is false. You have implied those people are in
danger in traffic, or ... what? When they race in The Hell of the North?
That just doesn't matter to most people.

Fact is, there are countless people who have bikes they loved in 1985,
and they still love those bikes. They should not be mocked or made
nervous about their safety. If their stuff works for them, leave them
alone.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Should be mocked or made nervous about their safety? You draw strange conclusions. I never said or implied that. I only said that their are situations that it is not wise to shift with a DT shifter and it doesn't matter with a brifter. If you don't shift in that situation you are not in danger with DT shifter.

Good. We agree. And that's what everyone does. That benefit of brifters
does exist, but it is negligible in almost all situations.

You implied that people that are using brifters lack the riding skills to ride with only one hand on the handlebar. That is utter nonsense.

It's not true of most people, of course. I'm sorry I can't find the
article with the quote, but we did have a racer saying he felt unsteady
having to remove a hand toward downtube shifters.

Wasn't that from the article about making the two bikes out of
different quality tubes and nobody could tell the difference?
--
cheers,

John B.

On 6/6/2020 5:11 PM, wrote:
On Friday, June 5, 2020 at 1:32:40 PM UTC-5, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

I think that 9-speed for road touring is fantastic. Why? Because I can buy two different cassettes and customize them to get the EXACT gearing I want which is fairly close-spaced 7-speed with two larger bail-out gears. It's nice to have small jumps between gears so that I don't spin out when changing a gear, may cadence stays longer in the comfort zone and I still have to bail-out gears for when I'm bucking a strong headwind especially uphill.

I looked at 10+ setups but won't get one of them do to the high expense of their cogsets and chains compared to 9-speed stuff.



What you write makes sense on paper. Build a custom cogset with close spacing and two extra super low gears. But in reality with 10 speed and above I suspect, you can easily get the close spacing to stay in the optimal cadence plus have the right low gears too. 10-12 years ago I built up a new loaded touring bike. I went with 10 speed STI. 11-32 cassette that has perfectly good spacing plus big enough cogs too. Of course I added my own personally made crankset/chainrings to the bike that likely made the whole bike far far superior to anything you could buy off the shelf. 44-33-20 triple crankset using an ancient Shimano DX 110mm crankset with the inner ring at 74mm bcd. BUT I found an Avid tri-adaptor and converted the inner to a 58mm bcd ring able to take 20 tooth inner. Its almost the most perfect touring gearing on the face of the earth.

I've never found 10 speed chains or cassettes to be hard to find or expensive. Today they might even be cheaper and easier to find than the older 9 speed. I think you set yourself back by going with sort of ancient 9 speed on your touring bike. Better to have 10 speed for a touring bike.

OK, let me ask a question. Most people posting to this thread are
saying, as Russell just did, that 10 cogs are better than 9. I'm also
hearing the implication that 11 are better than 10.

If 11 are better than 10 which are better than 9 which are better than 8
which are better than 7 which are better than 6 which are better than 5...

Where would you stop? By your own criteria, is there some number of cogs
that would cause you to say "That's not needed. That number minus one is
plenty"?

Or is your ideal a "corncob," each cog one more tooth from - what? - 11
to 34 or more?

(Bonus question: How many chainrings do you use?)


--
- Frank Krygowski

John B. writes:

On Sat, 06 Jun 2020 12:04:12 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

Frank Krygowski writes:

On 6/5/2020 4:30 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, June 5, 2020 at 12:55:32 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
writes:

On Thursday, June 4, 2020 at 6:33:04 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
writes:

On Thursday, June 4, 2020 at 12:30:27 AM UTC-7, Dennis Davis wrote:
In article ,
jbeattie wrote:

...

I think that the curmudgeon handbook, chapter six, has a lengthy
discussion of the benefits of DT friction shifters. IIRC,
they a (1) slow and imprecise shifting, (2) missed shifts,
(3) conspicuous contrarianism, (4) longevity like an incurable
skin condition, (5) inconvenient location, and (6) conspicuous
contrarianism. Clearly superior to any STI/Ergo like system.

A double dose of "conspicuous contrarianism" ("3" and "6"). Isn't
that overkill?

Perhaps (6) is better replaced by:

(6) Requires levels of skill not present in modern cyclists.


...I'm planning to put some Simplex Retrofriction downtube levers on
my next bike...
--
Dennis Davis

I think more accurate would be "requires total lack of skills that
modern cyclists have." Anyone that rides downtube shifters or
centerpull brakes in this day and age is either penniless or stupid or
both.

Thanks, Tom. I'm not penniless, I must be stupid.

Then explain how you have a downtube shifter bike? Unless you make a
effort to collect classic bikes you can't even find downtube shifters
anymore. I had a hard enough time getting bar ends for my touring
bike. And I've never even used it and it is sitting in the backyard

I bought one in 1978, still ride it. Some parts are new.

Wow, all my road bikes from the '70s broke or got stolen -- or
both.

Wow indeed! My family had precisely one bike stolen. My kid, when
about 11, was supposed to chain his bike to our carport. Instead he
just looped the chain over the crank.

Some years ago I very nearly lost my ancient bicycle. At the time it
had a sleazy Ofmega freewheel hub, due to my reluctance to respace the
frame. The hub was in the process of self destructing. When I applied
enough torque the rear axle would shift in the dropouts, and the wheel
would bump into the right chainstay. I never took it apart to figure
out what was broken.

But at the time it was the middle of winter, and I was lazy and didn't
deal with it. One day I rode a short distance to a yoga class in the
city center, and locked my bike in a large courtyard outside. When I
came out I unlocked it, just when someone told me I had left a
waterbottle behind.

I could have brought by bike inside, or locked it back up. But, since I
planned to be gone considerably less than a minute I foolishly just
leaned it against the building. When I returned some scruffy looking
dude was beginning to ride away on my bicycle. Naturally I yelled at
him, and took off running. He stood and mashed down on the pedal -- and
promptly dumped my bike in the middle of the icy courtyard, at which
point he jumped up and ran away.

Shortly afterward I spread the rear dropouts, and replaced the wheel
with one built on a Shimano cassette hub.

A rather unique anti theft feature :-)

It worked out for me at the time. I was never so glad to have a crappy
ill-maintained bike.

On Saturday, 6 June 2020 20:20:16 UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/6/2020 5:11 PM, wrote:
On Friday, June 5, 2020 at 1:32:40 PM UTC-5, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

I think that 9-speed for road touring is fantastic. Why? Because I can buy two different cassettes and customize them to get the EXACT gearing I want which is fairly close-spaced 7-speed with two larger bail-out gears. It's nice to have small jumps between gears so that I don't spin out when changing a gear, may cadence stays longer in the comfort zone and I still have to bail-out gears for when I'm bucking a strong headwind especially uphill.

I looked at 10+ setups but won't get one of them do to the high expense of their cogsets and chains compared to 9-speed stuff.



What you write makes sense on paper. Build a custom cogset with close spacing and two extra super low gears. But in reality with 10 speed and above I suspect, you can easily get the close spacing to stay in the optimal cadence plus have the right low gears too. 10-12 years ago I built up a new loaded touring bike. I went with 10 speed STI. 11-32 cassette that has perfectly good spacing plus big enough cogs too. Of course I added my own personally made crankset/chainrings to the bike that likely made the whole bike far far superior to anything you could buy off the shelf. 44-33-20 triple crankset using an ancient Shimano DX 110mm crankset with the inner ring at 74mm bcd. BUT I found an Avid tri-adaptor and converted the inner to a 58mm bcd ring able to take 20 tooth inner. Its almost the most perfect touring gearing on the face of the earth.

I've never found 10 speed chains or cassettes to be hard to find or expensive. Today they might even be cheaper and easier to find than the older 9 speed. I think you set yourself back by going with sort of ancient 9 speed on your touring bike. Better to have 10 speed for a touring bike.

OK, let me ask a question. Most people posting to this thread are
saying, as Russell just did, that 10 cogs are better than 9. I'm also
hearing the implication that 11 are better than 10.

If 11 are better than 10 which are better than 9 which are better than 8
which are better than 7 which are better than 6 which are better than 5....

Where would you stop? By your own criteria, is there some number of cogs
that would cause you to say "That's not needed. That number minus one is
plenty"?

Or is your ideal a "corncob," each cog one more tooth from - what? - 11
to 34 or more?

(Bonus question: How many chainrings do you use?)


--
- Frank Krygowski

I have a 11 - 19 corncob on one of my bikes with a 28 - 38 - 48 triple crankset and I just love it on the rolling hills around here. The shifting on the hills is nice and gradual and my cadence stays very similar throughout the ride. No shifting into too low a gear because the needed/wanted jump isn't there. If I could do that sort of thing on my touring bike I'd be very tempted to do it. FOr me the limiting factor in more rear cogs isn't the number of them but the cost and the cost of new ones compared to 9-speed or 7-speed. Like I said, on my touring bike I have a 9-speed cassette set up with 7 fairly close gears and two bailout gears. Now if, and that's a very big if, I went to 11 or 12 cogs I could have closer jumps between any number of gears and still have a couple of gears set aside as bailout gears. that's my needs and wants and they are different to yours and some other people.

That does not mean that people who want more than 7, 8 or 9 cogs should be mocked or derided for the choices they make for the type/types of riding they do.

Cheers

Am Fri, 5 Jun 2020 21:31:26 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
:

On 6/5/2020 7:32 PM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:

I own and ride a road bike equipped with a an Ultegra 3x10 group from
2010 (6703, AFAIR) and I'm quite happy with it. Changing gears ist
easy, fast and works like a charm. Except when it it doesn't. Problem
is, the construction is a mechanical nightmare. I bought it specifically
because both cables (bowden cable?), both those for braking and those
for changing gears are routed along the handle bar, so that there is
enough space between the handles to moutn a large Ortlieb handlebar bag.
Have look at
https://pluspora.com/posts/296e60b0625701384a38005056264835, fifth
picture or
https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/20200416/DSC01809.jpg

Changing the inner cable is difficult, when one of the wires is already
broken. Somehow I damaged an tiny spring while removing the old cable.
In consequence, the whole expensive grip had to be replaced.

....

But mainly, I'd really like to get rid of all those arkwardly routed
cables, which break much to often.

Interesting. I have always used large handlebar bags on (almost) all
bikes.

So do I.

197x ff: https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/loire1.jpg
1996-2010: https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/IMG-2461.JPG


I prefer bar-end shifters, but I route the cables under the
handlebar tape, which is not the default choice.

I too ordered that custom made touring bicycle shown above with bar-end
shifters, for being able to use it during winter with mittens.

If memory serves me right, routing the cable along the handle bar under
the tape was standard, I hadn't to ask for it. Much later, I had to
change the handlebar after a fall. It wasn't broken, but noticeably
bent, so I didn't take the risk. Changing was easy, after studying how
it was mounted on the old handlebar.

I don't, either. The problems I see are with the mechanical
construction of the Brake/Shifter (brifter?) Shimano Ultegra ST-6700,
caused by the necessity to route _two_ cables down to the handlebar, in
so tiny space. Because of the small bending radius, a cable wires tends
to break exactly where you need it last, in that tiny space inside the
shifter, that is. The broken wire coils up inside and causes damage,
when removing the broken cable. In my case, it damaged a tiny spring,
one of two which are part of a ratched mechanism. After trying to find
that spring and enough details about where and how it was mounted, I
gave up and went on a hunt for a replacement part. Disassembling and
reassembling a mechanical clock is easier.

I still don't have an idea about how to remove a broken cable, safely. I
guess, problems like these are the reason for tips like replacing the
inner cables once or twice a year. I didn't have to to that for any of
the shifters I used before. I always carried a few spare (inner) cables
during the holiday rides and changed them on the fly, even on the road,
when necessary.

The owner of a bicycle shop, whom I consulted for getting a replacement
shifter tried to convince me to use a an older shifter, he called them
"Wäscheleinenschalthebel", clotheeslines shifter, because these didn't
have this - to him - well known reliability problem. For me, this
wasn't an option, because I very much rely on my large handle bar bag.

My wife rides a Scott bicycle with the older 105 3x10 version of the
group, which actually has these clotheslines.

https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/scott.png

She actually would like to have a decent handlebar bag, too, but alas,
that's not possible her. On the positive side, those shifters work
flawlessly, so far.



But I don't have any
problem with excess lever force.

I haven't, either. But I have a problem with equimpment which trades
comfort against reliability.



I'm sympathetic toward your problem of exotic parts and expensive
replacements.

Shimano groups aren't exotic, around here. Outside of cheap commonditiy
bikes, it is difficult to buy a bike that isn't equippend with parts
from the Shimano universe. 2 x 10 was standard in 2010. 3 x 10 might
perhaps be considered unusual and exotic. Well, the part was the right
shifter (10x), which is identical for 2x10 and 3x10. This might be the
reason for the shortage. Perhaps Shimano produces these replacement
parts by number, not by SKU, so an unexpected failure mode drained the
stocked parts twice as fast. When I checked, the left levers where
still available.


I greatly prefer mechanical simplicity, and devices I can
easily understand, strip and fix in the middle of nowhere. That still
keeps me away from STI and di2.

Sure. But buying simplicity comes with a price to, and often doesn't
even work, when simple parts are even less available, in the middle of
nowhere.

Currently, I'm just watching the space.



I recently read in _Bicycle Quarterly_ magazine about a bike tour in the
remote Andes mountains. The tourists arrived with brand new bikes with
di2 shifting. In the remote village where they started, they learned one
bike's rear derailleur did not work. One guy worked for hours with no
success, no idea of what was wrong. Next day he made a phone call to a
shop thousands of miles away and was given some tricks to try.
Fortunately, one of them worked. If it hadn't, the trip might have been
canceled.

Well, shure, but that's not what we do. We stay in Europe for holiday
riding. There is a lot of room not yet visited.

My point was specifically the difference in expected reliability between
this specific mechanical broken construction and product, and what I
understand about how Di2 operates. Without having any real experience
with Di2 so far, I nevertheless consider it more reliable. I stay away
mostly because I don't have a need for it and because it is still
exoctic and not stabilized as a product line.


I doubt I'll tour the Andes,

So do I.

but I don't want to be even 20 miles from
home and have problems like that.

Well, I'm rarely more then a few kilometers away from a bus stop or a an
opportunity to get a taxi.

Thinking about it, the most remote situations where in the rural south
of france, during day trips into the hills. We rarely did more than
70-80 km a day that way. In the worst case, a 40 km ride back to the
house we rented would have done it. I really don't like to ride my
wives bicycle, because it is smaller, but besides that, it is
compatible, adjusting the saddle will do. That's an two hour ride to
get back to the car, at max. Certainly not funny, but not the end of
the world, either. Two bikes rarely break at the same time.

I too like the ability to repair on the road. When riding to work, I
often patched a tube on the road even when having a spare one available.
That way, I _still_ have the spare. Why? Experience. Failures like these
sometimes come in series. But I'm not going to pimp my bicycle into a
kind of wartime vehicle, just for riding around town. :-)

--
Wir danken für die Beachtung aller Sicherheitsbestimmungen