Death wobble in front bars!

On Sun, 26 Oct 2008 15:26:59 -0700, Michael Press wrote:

In article ,
Tom Sherman wrote:

Michael Press wrote:
In article ,
Tom Sherman wrote:

Michael Press wrote:
In article ,
Tom Sherman wrote:

aka Jobst Brandt wrote:
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

It is not the bicycle.
It is not the rider.
This is a system.
An illuminating model of the system can be built from
mechanical engineering. Mass, spring, dashpot. Vary the
couplings.
Vary the amplitudes and frequencies of the driving forces.
Wait. You mean... no, you can't mean that. You're not
suggesting that one has to *learn* how to ride a bike are you?
Well, it is fun, but no: nobody has to learn how to ride a
bike.
Ah yes, a William Shatner-esque take on things. I like it.
Only people who tried it too late in life need to learn how to
ride a bicycle. From my experience, it is a natural control
problem and a pragmatic understanding of moving objects. At age
4-5 years these things are usually in proper perspective unless
one's childhood has excessively sheltered until then.

These days I hear of sickly and accident prone youths whose
parents shielded them from all EVIL; dirt, danger, and self
reliant experience. Where have all the hippies gone?

Not all parents can afford to buy their children bicycles.
Yes, they can.

Some parents can not even provide adequate housing, food and medical
care, much less a bicycle.

Who are these people that beget children and are incapable of
providing for them?

Michael Press must not get to the 'hood or rural depressed areas very
much.

No, do you? Do you personally know such people?

oh look, michael press evidencing that he hasn't enough integrity to admit
to the existence of what lies [sometimes literally] on his own doorstep.

In article ,
Tom Sherman wrote:

Michael Press wrote:
In article ,
Tom Sherman wrote:

Michael Press wrote:
In article ,
Tom Sherman wrote:

Michael Press wrote:
In article ,
Tom Sherman wrote:

aka Jobst Brandt wrote:
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

It is not the bicycle.
It is not the rider.
This is a system.
An illuminating model of the system can be built
from mechanical engineering. Mass, spring, dashpot.
Vary the couplings.
Vary the amplitudes and frequencies of the driving forces.
Wait. You mean... no, you can't mean that. You're not suggesting
that one has to *learn* how to ride a bike are you?
Well, it is fun, but no: nobody has to learn how to ride a bike.
Ah yes, a William Shatner-esque take on things. I like it.
Only people who tried it too late in life need to learn how to ride a
bicycle. From my experience, it is a natural control problem and a
pragmatic understanding of moving objects. At age 4-5 years these
things are usually in proper perspective unless one's childhood has
excessively sheltered until then.

These days I hear of sickly and accident prone youths whose parents
shielded them from all EVIL; dirt, danger, and self reliant
experience. Where have all the hippies gone?

Not all parents can afford to buy their children bicycles.
Yes, they can.

Some parents can not even provide adequate housing, food and medical
care, much less a bicycle.
Who are these people that beget children and are incapable of
providing for them?

Michael Press must not get to the 'hood or rural depressed areas very much.

No, do you? Do you personally know such people?

Why yes, since I did NOT grow up a spoiled middle or upper class brat.

And these people you know do not object to being characterized
as incapable of providing for their children? Yes, this is out
of my ken.

--
Michael Press

Michael Press wrote:
In article ,
Tom Sherman wrote:

Michael Press wrote:
In article ,
Tom Sherman wrote:

Michael Press wrote:
In article ,
Tom Sherman wrote:

Michael Press wrote:
In article ,
Tom Sherman wrote:

[...]
Not all parents can afford to buy their children bicycles.
Yes, they can.

Some parents can not even provide adequate housing, food and medical
care, much less a bicycle.
Who are these people that beget children and are incapable of
providing for them?

Michael Press must not get to the 'hood or rural depressed areas very much.
No, do you? Do you personally know such people?

Why yes, since I did NOT grow up a spoiled middle or upper class brat.

And these people you know do not object to being characterized
as incapable of providing for their children? Yes, this is out
of my ken.

I never "characterized" them as anything - I just made the observation.

(Hint - I did not get a bicycle until the 6th grade due to family finances).

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
If you are not a part of the solution, you are a part of the precipitate.

"Tom Sherman" wrote in message
...
Michael Press wrote:
In article ,
Tom Sherman wrote:

Michael Press wrote:
In article ,
Tom Sherman wrote:

Michael Press wrote:
In article ,
Tom Sherman wrote:

Michael Press wrote:
In article ,
Tom Sherman wrote:

[...]
Not all parents can afford to buy their children bicycles.
Yes, they can.

Some parents can not even provide adequate housing, food and
medical care, much less a bicycle.
Who are these people that beget children and are incapable of
providing for them?

Michael Press must not get to the 'hood or rural depressed areas
very much.
No, do you? Do you personally know such people?

Why yes, since I did NOT grow up a spoiled middle or upper class
brat.

And these people you know do not object to being characterized
as incapable of providing for their children? Yes, this is out
of my ken.

I never "characterized" them as anything - I just made the
observation.

(Hint - I did not get a bicycle until the 6th grade due to family
finances).

There are DAs who do nothing but termination of parental rights cases
(taking kids out of unfit homes). Not having a bike is the least of
these kids' worries. The good news is that once these kids get in to
foster care, there are a lot of charities that provide bikes to
kids -- including several here in PDX. -- Jay Beattie.

Jay Beattie wrote:
"Tom Sherman" wrote in message
...
Michael Press wrote:
In article ,
Tom Sherman wrote:

Michael Press wrote:
In article ,
Tom Sherman wrote:

Michael Press wrote:
In article ,
Tom Sherman wrote:

Michael Press wrote:
In article ,
Tom Sherman wrote:

[...]
Not all parents can afford to buy their children bicycles.
Yes, they can.

Some parents can not even provide adequate housing, food and
medical care, much less a bicycle.
Who are these people that beget children and are incapable of
providing for them?

Michael Press must not get to the 'hood or rural depressed areas
very much.
No, do you? Do you personally know such people?

Why yes, since I did NOT grow up a spoiled middle or upper class
brat.
And these people you know do not object to being characterized
as incapable of providing for their children? Yes, this is out
of my ken.

I never "characterized" them as anything - I just made the
observation.

(Hint - I did not get a bicycle until the 6th grade due to family
finances).

There are DAs who do nothing but termination of parental rights cases
(taking kids out of unfit homes). Not having a bike is the least of
these kids' worries.

No fracture, no foul, eh?

The good news is that once these kids get in to
foster care, there are a lot of charities that provide bikes to
kids -- including several here in PDX.

"What doesn't kill you only makes you stronger".

The late Alexandre Solzhenitsyn made an excellent point of how character
was strengthened and cleansed for those who survived the labor camps
without becoming collaborators.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007

Michael Press wrote:
In article ,
Tom Sherman wrote:

Michael Press wrote:
In article ,
Tom Sherman wrote:

Michael Press wrote:
In article ,
Tom Sherman wrote:

Michael Press wrote:
In article ,
Tom Sherman wrote:

Michael Press wrote:
In article ,
Tom Sherman wrote:

[...]
Not all parents can afford to buy their children bicycles.
Yes, they can.

Some parents can not even provide adequate housing, food and medical
care, much less a bicycle.
Who are these people that beget children and are incapable of
providing for them?

Michael Press must not get to the 'hood or rural depressed areas very much.
No, do you? Do you personally know such people?

Why yes, since I did NOT grow up a spoiled middle or upper class brat.
And these people you know do not object to being characterized
as incapable of providing for their children? Yes, this is out
of my ken.

I never "characterized" them as anything - I just made the observation.

To make an observation of someone is to characterize that person.
The question is if the people you speak of object to being characterized
as being incapable of providing for their children. You know them
and are in a position to make your observations.

I do not know, since I have not been rude enough to ask.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
If you are not a part of the solution, you are a part of the precipitate.

"Tom Sherman" wrote: I do not know, since I have not been rude enough to
ask. (Referring to poor families that can't affort to buy bicycles for
their chilodren.)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Tom, you have allowed Michael Press to obfuscate the issue by asking
irrelevant questions which appear to cast doubt on the self-evident: "Who
are these people that beget children and are incapable of providing for
them?" Michael, surely you are not claiming that they don't exist. And,
since we know they DO exist, how is it their fault that they don't have as
much as you and your children?

In article ,
"Leo Lichtman" wrote:

"Tom Sherman" wrote: I do not know, since I have not been rude enough to
ask. (Referring to poor families that can't affort to buy bicycles for
their chilodren.)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Tom, you have allowed Michael Press to obfuscate the issue by asking
irrelevant questions which appear to cast doubt on the self-evident: "Who
are these people that beget children and are incapable of providing for
them?" Michael, surely you are not claiming that they don't exist. And,
since we know they DO exist, how is it their fault that they don't have as
much as you and your children?

I am taking Tom literally. He says the _cannot_ provide for
their children. Exactly how much work does it take to rent
a place and get enough food to feed some people? I do not
accept that a person who can keep himself alive cannot
provide for his (or her) children.

--
Michael Press

On Tue, 28 Oct 2008 19:36:45 -0700, Michael Press wrote:

In article ,
"Leo Lichtman" wrote:

"Tom Sherman" wrote: I do not know, since I have not been rude enough
to ask. (Referring to poor families that can't affort to buy bicycles
for their chilodren.)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Tom, you have allowed Michael Press to obfuscate the issue by asking
irrelevant questions which appear to cast doubt on the self-evident:
"Who are these people that beget children and are incapable of
providing for them?" Michael, surely you are not claiming that they
don't exist. And, since we know they DO exist, how is it their fault
that they don't have as much as you and your children?

I am taking Tom literally. He says the _cannot_ provide for their
children. Exactly how much work does it take to rent a place and get
enough food to feed some people? I do not accept that a person who can
keep himself alive cannot provide for his (or her) children.


jeepers michael press - do you not live in san francisco? have you never
heard of lower haight? hunters point? potrero?[list continues...]
where the projects are? even civic center and market street? sixth
street??? ever been out east, oaktown way? seems you're unaware of the
world outside 94118.

unless of course, you're simply being too dishonest to admit to something
that defeats your argument. you'd /never/ do that...

In article ,
Tom Sherman wrote:

Michael Press wrote:
In article ,
Tom Sherman wrote:

Michael Press wrote:
In article ,
Tom Sherman wrote:

Michael Press wrote:
In article ,
Tom Sherman wrote:

Michael Press wrote:
In article ,
Tom Sherman wrote:

Michael Press wrote:
In article ,
Tom Sherman wrote:

[...]
Not all parents can afford to buy their children bicycles.
Yes, they can.

Some parents can not even provide adequate housing, food and medical
care, much less a bicycle.
Who are these people that beget children and are incapable of
providing for them?

Michael Press must not get to the 'hood or rural depressed areas very much.
No, do you? Do you personally know such people?

Why yes, since I did NOT grow up a spoiled middle or upper class brat.
And these people you know do not object to being characterized
as incapable of providing for their children? Yes, this is out
of my ken.

I never "characterized" them as anything - I just made the observation.

To make an observation of someone is to characterize that person.
The question is if the people you speak of object to being characterized
as being incapable of providing for their children. You know them
and are in a position to make your observations.

I do not know, since I have not been rude enough to ask.

If it will be rude to ask, then we have our answer:
they will object.

--
Michael Press