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drill/tap in frames



 
 
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  #41  
Old July 11th 18, 07:47 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Emanuel Berg[_2_]
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Posts: 922
Default drill/tap in frames

Frank Krygowski wrote:

ISTM that Emanuel isn't very clear on many
bike-related terms in English, and he seems
to be a novice mechanic in general. Some of
his descriptions may be
unintentionally misleading.


In 2017-18, I have sold 24 bikes, some of which
were just an intact frame when I started to fix
them. So I know enough to know that if you pump
up your ego to unholy proportions over such
a simple thing as a *bike*, you are actually
a complete lamer.

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
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  #42  
Old July 11th 18, 07:51 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Emanuel Berg[_2_]
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Posts: 922
Default drill/tap in frames

John B. Slocomb wrote:

The normal engaged thread length depends on
the diameter of the bolt and the "standard"
(strength) For example, an M5 screw (grade
6h/6g) will have a minimum stressed
(threaded)area some 4.0103 mm long. This is
usually felt to be a sufficient thread
engagement to provide some 100% of shank
strength. There are innumerable tables
available giving the required data.


M5s with flat, round Torx (T25) heads are the
most common. Well, they are always M5 what
I can remember but sometimes they are
Pozidriv (PZ2) instead of Torx.

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
  #43  
Old July 11th 18, 08:24 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
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Posts: 57
Default drill/tap in frames

On Mon, 09 Jul 2018 12:05:10 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 18:16:19 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
:On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 16:21:43 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt
wrote:

:sms wrote:
::On 7/7/2018 7:27 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
:: Are there any secrets to drilling holes in
:: steel bike frames? I have a couple of discarded
:: ones I can test on but I thought I'd
:: ask anyway.
::
:: Do you use normal power hand tools like
:: a drill-screwdriver and/or a drill press (if
:: possible with the desired bolt position)?
::
:: Do the normal rules apply, e.g. to get
:: a threaded hole for an M6, you first drill with
:: a 5.0mm drill?
::
:: And you can use chainsaw oil, right?
:
::As Jobst Brandt stated: "I don't know many riders who believe that
::drilling a hole in a frame tube is a reasonable concept."

:Who cares what riders think, what do the egineers do?

:Jobst Brandt was a mechanical engineer.
:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobst_Brandt


he was also wrong about many things.


I know. I locked horns with him on several issues where I was certain
that he was wrong. His mechanical engineering was superb. His
chemistry, not so good. Electronics, I don't recall.

Every bike I've ever had has had
holes drilled in it. Clearly, there is a range of holes that do not
cause failure, and some that do. The question is where does a rivnut
fall? I wouldn't drill a 5 mm hole a on 26mm diameter tube, but they
work fine on large diamter ones.


The OP is talking about installing Rivnuts in his chain stays in order
to repair some chain guard and fender supports. I'm too lazy to walk
over to my bicycle and measure them, but methinks they're much too
small diameter for a 5mm hole. The Rivnut would also not have much of
a flat surface in which to seat and might loosen and spin.


Most things should be done with a certain level of logic. The
installation of a 1/2" Rivnut in a 12.5mm tube is unlikely to be
successful :-)

Rivnuts also are made in a large verity, many of which are versions of
various anti spin designs. It will probably be best if the user is
aware of the various ramifications of the design differences :-)
--

Cheers,

John B.
  #44  
Old July 11th 18, 03:42 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
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Posts: 8,299
Default drill/tap in frames

On 7/9/2018 11:16 AM, David Scheidt wrote:

he was also wrong about many things. Every bike I've ever had has had
holes drilled in it. Clearly, there is a range of holes that do not
cause failure, and some that do. The question is where does a rivnut
fall? I wouldn't drill a 5 mm hole a on 26mm diameter tube, but they
work fine on large diamter ones.


Did you drill those holes and install the Rivnuts or did they come from
the factory that way. Were these steel or aluminum tubes?

Rivnuts in very thin tubing need to be installed very carefully. Drill
them with the wrong drill and you'll crack the tubing. Install them too
loose and they'll spin. Install them too tight and they cause cracking.

You can get away with doing this but it doesn't mean that it's a good
idea. There's a reason why all the experts advise against doing this,
and why it voids the frame warranty (if you're the original owner with a
lifetime warranty, you might worry about this).

For those determined to do this, look into the Plusnut (made by Rivnut)
which is more suitable for end-user applications.

For the OP, is the chainstay even a large enough diameter for a Rivnut?

What might work is using M3 x 0.25 screws. You'd have enough threads for
a 1 mm thick tube. Both the screws and the taps are not cheap as these
are used on high-precision machinery. Tthey also have M6 x 0.25, but I
did not see any M5.




  #45  
Old July 11th 18, 03:45 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
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Posts: 8,299
Default drill/tap in frames

On 7/10/2018 6:02 PM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

it was a schizophrenic time, unlike today when we have it all together, and the technology is perfect.


I tell my kids, “back in my day, people didn’t think it was a good idea
to grab an electric drill and drill holes in you bicycle frame, now we
know better.”
  #46  
Old July 11th 18, 05:42 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,833
Default drill/tap in frames

On Tue, 10 Jul 2018 20:41:08 -0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Sat, 07 Jul 2018 12:33:38 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Sat, 7 Jul 2018 11:06:52 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

This group has debated Rivnuts extensively. One poster claims nobody
should install a Rivnut unless he has access to a complete machine shop.
Others with more experience have said that the installation is easy for
anyone with normal mechanical skills.


That would be SMS (Steven Scharf) on one of his web pages:
http://nordicgroup.us/cageboss/

Since I've made a mess with all the available technologies, Rivnuts
(steel and aluminum), brazing (steel), TIG (aluminum), and epoxy glue
(plastic boss on aluminum), I'll remain neutral on the matter.

Hint: Use steel Rivnuts on steel frames, aluminum Rivnuts on aluminum
frame, and plastic straps or clamps on CF (carbon fiber).


One can only suppose that those "dumb asses: that manufacture rivnuts
deliberately make their product in a number of materials :-)


I'm not sure about the deliberate part, but yes, one can buy them in
steel or aluminum. I couldn't find any plastic or carbon fiber
rivnuts.

And, it might be added that not knowing what you are doing is not
limited to bicycle maintenence :-)


True. If those expounding on bicycle technology by various electronic
means really knew what they were doing, they would be riding instead
of pounding on the keyboard. If you really want to know how things
work, find someone that is actually doing the work and interrogate
them for the information you need and don't bother reading books,
manufacturers literature, magazines, forums, and newsgroups. The only
downside is that those who really know, tend to be inarticulate and
have difficulties explaining complex concepts, like which way to
tighten a right handed bolt. However, persistence, intimidation, and
perhaps bribery will eventually produce the required answer from a
real expert.

As I mentioned, I have successfully trashed most everything I've tried
to do with Rivnuts on bicycles, and therefore have no opinion on the
matter. However, it might be interesting to try a simple test. I
could probably finance the test by taking bets on the outcome.

Take two identical lengths of steel bicycle tubing. Install a Rivnut
in only one tube at midpoint. Clamp one end in a pipe vise. Pull on
the other end with a Come-Along perpendicular to the tubing. Measure
the force with a load cell. Draw a graph to show when the tubing went
plastic and eventually buckled. Compare results between the tubing
with and without the Rivnut. That should settle the debate whether
Rivnuts are detrimental to frame and stay strength.
--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #47  
Old July 11th 18, 06:01 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,833
Default drill/tap in frames

On Wed, 11 Jul 2018 06:59:19 +0200, Tosspot
wrote:

Am I the only person that *likes* the look of drillium?


I also like the look, mostly because I consider it a CNC art form. I
also like the look of futuristic concept bicycles. Ok, I'm weird.

Here's some frames to compliment your drillium components:
http://delta7bikes.com
https://i.materialise.com/blog/en/redesigning-the-bike-frame-james-novaks-experiment-with-3d-printing/
https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/latest-news/the-worlds-first-3d-printed-steel-bike-frame-is-like-nothing-youve-seen-before-210728



--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #48  
Old July 11th 18, 06:09 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,833
Default drill/tap in frames

On Tue, 10 Jul 2018 19:50:59 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 7/10/2018 5:36 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

I have one of the egg cube makers shown:
https://www.thegreenhead.com/2006/10/egg-cuber-makes-square-eggs.php


Who doesn't? No more eggs rolling off the plate.


You're suppose to use a bowl for boiled eggs, not a plate.
https://www.google.com/search?q=boiled+eggs+bowl&tbm=isch

However, if you must use a plate, you can buy square eggs that won't
roll:
https://www.rspcaassured.org.uk/news/rspca-assured-hens-lay-square-eggs/



--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #49  
Old July 11th 18, 06:18 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,833
Default drill/tap in frames

On Tue, 10 Jul 2018 21:25:06 -0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Mon, 09 Jul 2018 10:55:00 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 16:21:43 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt
wrote:

sms wrote:
:On 7/7/2018 7:27 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
: Are there any secrets to drilling holes in
: steel bike frames? I have a couple of discarded
: ones I can test on but I thought I'd
: ask anyway.
:
: Do you use normal power hand tools like
: a drill-screwdriver and/or a drill press (if
: possible with the desired bolt position)?
:
: Do the normal rules apply, e.g. to get
: a threaded hole for an M6, you first drill with
: a 5.0mm drill?
:
: And you can use chainsaw oil, right?

:As Jobst Brandt stated: "I don't know many riders who believe that
:drilling a hole in a frame tube is a reasonable concept."


Who cares what riders think, what do the egineers do?


Jobst Brandt was a mechanical engineer.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobst_Brandt

What's an egineer?


One might comment that a fairly large number of bridges, that
subsequently fell down, were designed by the engineers of the times
:-)


Therefore, anything designed by an engineer will eventually fall
apart. I like the logic.

The problem with mechanical engineering is that problems, such as
falling bridges, are easily visible. Even Joe Sixpack can recognize a
mechanical failure. The fault is always with the architect or
designer, and never with cost cutting contractor, sloppy construction
company, defective imported components, blind inspectors, bribed
officials, or the demands of the aesthetics committees. It's for this
reason that I chose to go into electronics. Few can recognize an
electronic problem or find someone on the design staff to blame. It's
safety through obscurity.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #50  
Old July 11th 18, 06:38 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joy Beeson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,137
Default drill/tap in frames

On Wed, 11 Jul 2018 08:38:33 +0200, Emanuel Berg
wrote:

I put it there with
cable ties ("wires") but there was an annoying
sound while riding the bike.


You need a hose clamp. Wrap the tube with handlebar tape to protect
the paint. Also, clamp on tape has a much higher co-efficient of
friction than clamp on hard surface.

I attached two bottle cages this way late in the twentieth century,
and haven't thought about them since.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/


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