IRD Freewheels : Worth 3x the cost ??

| The Shimano cassette freehub design is limited to a 10mm threaded
| axle. There are other variations, but at the expense of strength in
| the ratchet-- and they top out at 12mm. I have broken 10mm cassette
| hub axles (7-speed). I have also broken 9.5 and 10mm freewheel hub
| axles, but I have never broken a larger diameter unthreaded hub
| axle.
|
| Phil freewheel hubs use a 15mm smooth axle. Up to 19mm is
| hypothetically feasible, since a Shimano-type freewheel spline allows
| that diameter. Even accounting for drive side overhang, a 15mm smooth
| axle outclasses a 10mm threaded axle.

Your experience is exceptionally-rare. I do not recall ever seeing a broken
cassette hub axle, aside from one that someone rode so loose that it became
worn through. I will concede that the 15mm Phile axle goes beyond even that.
But I would not suggest to someone that a Phil hub is an answer to a problem
that doesn't exist (worrying about breaking a cassette hub axle).

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"Chalo" wrote in message
...
| Donald Gillies wrote:
|
| Chalo writes:
|
| [Phil freewheel hubs offer] a larger and stronger axle,
|
| How can this be true? The right-side bearing of a freewheel hub is
| unsupported - its 30-35mm in from the dropouts, making it far more
| vulnerable to pedaling torques. I am not aware of anyone breaking
| 9-speed or 10-speed freehub axles ... anyone? Anyone????
|
| The Shimano cassette freehub design is limited to a 10mm threaded
| axle. There are other variations, but at the expense of strength in
| the ratchet-- and they top out at 12mm. I have broken 10mm cassette
| hub axles (7-speed). I have also broken 9.5 and 10mm freewheel hub
| axles, but I have never broken a larger diameter unthreaded hub
| axle.
|
| Phil freewheel hubs use a 15mm smooth axle. Up to 19mm is
| hypothetically feasible, since a Shimano-type freewheel spline allows
| that diameter. Even accounting for drive side overhang, a 15mm smooth
| axle outclasses a 10mm threaded axle.
|
| and a more robust ratcheting mechanism that is cheaper and
| easier to replace.
|
| I am not sure this is true. There existed in the past 4-pawl
| freewheels specifically for tandem application, indicating that 2-pawl
| freewheels were failure-prone on tandems.
|
| I can only speak from my experience with equipment I have used and
| serviced. I have messed up cassettes and gearhubs, but not freewheels
| (despite most of my miles being on freewheel-equipped bikes). The
| multispeed freewheels I've used include various Suntour, Shimano,
| Sachs-Maillard, SunRace, and Falcon models in 5, 6, and 7-speed
| versions.
|
| It stands to reason that cassette ratchets would not be as hardy as
| their freewheel equivalents-- not only is the torque applied through a
| smaller radius, but the structure holding back the expansion of the
| pawls is much less rigid. Compare the outer shell of a freehub body
| to the outer shell of any freewheel body. From what I have seen, the
| pawls themselves are more or less equivalent between the two types.
|
| And, I understood from
| Sheldon Brown's website, concerning upgrade from uniglide to
| hyperglide freehubs, that Shimano freehub ratchet mechanisms are
| widely available?? So ratchet mechanism replacements are simple? Is
| that a falsehood ??
|
| To replace the ratchet mechanism of a freewheel hub, you simply
| replace the freewheel. You unscrew it with a spline tool and mount a
| new one. This operation costs at least $10 for a new freewheel.
| Usually I pay $20 for a new 11-34 7-speed freewheel. In the process,
| I get all new freewheel bearings and sprockets along with a new
| ratchet.
|
| For a cassette freehub, you have to remove the cassette lockring (a
| slightly fussier operation involving a chain whip and a different
| spline tool) and the cassette sprockets, then remove the hub axle and
| bearings, then use a 10mm hex key or a special spline tool to remove
| the freehub body. Replace the freehub body; clean, regrease, and
| adjust the axle bearings; and replace the sprockets and lockring. It
| looks like the parts cost of this operation starts at approximately
| $20 for a freehub body. The new freehub body comes with new bearings
| and pawls, but the sprockets must be replaced separately at much
| greater cost.
|
| Chalo

| Having ten sprockets doesn't allow _anything_ that can't be done just
| as well with seven sprockets in the same overall range (besides wreck
| your rear wheel).


*Your* experience based on *your* riding style. Some of us are far pickier
about the cadence we wish to use at any particular time. I was much happier
when 9-speed cassettes came along than with the prior 8-speed systems, yet
find very little advantage (over the range I use, which is 12-27) with a 10.
But I look forward to someone coming up with a 12-29, which would give me
gearing "gaps" I can deal with and the range I would prefer. 7-speed
systems, to me, wouldn't accomplish that.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"Chalo" wrote in message
...
| russellseaton1 wrote:
|
| Donald Gillies wrote:
|
| Chalo writes:
|
| If you were going to run a 9 or 10-speed cassette, it's still
| comparable. So far, there has been no expansion of gearing range
| offered by higher sprocket counts.
|
| Is gearing range a problem? Is there a need to expand it? How much
| lower of a low do you need than a 34 rear cog?
|
| That, like everything, depends on the application. But there are
| plenty of folks who would use wider ranging gearing and lower lows if
| they were available. All the pedicabbers I know fall into that
| category.
|
| 34 is available in
| 7-8-9-10 cassettes and/or freewheels.
|
| I wasn't aware that 10 speed clusters were offered with larger
| sprockets than 27t or whatever it is that Shimano and Campy see fit to
| produce.
|
| Its apparent you are arguing for a wider gear range just because
| it can be done even though it has no purpose. And you condemn 9-10
| speed cassettes for not doing something pointless. Bizarre.
|
| There are identifiable, quantifiable benefits to wider gearing. Maybe
| not for you, but for folks who actually use their bikes and trikes for
| things. For cargo bikers, velomobilists, railbikers, and electric-
| assist bikers, wider gearing is obviously useful-- that is, it will
| allow them to do things that can't be done, or can't be done with a
| reasonable and sustainable effort, with narrower gearing.
|
| Having ten sprockets doesn't allow _anything_ that can't be done just
| as well with seven sprockets in the same overall range (besides wreck
| your rear wheel).
|
| IRD makes a 10 speed cassette in 11-34(Shimano) and
| 11-32(Campagnolo). Seems pretty close to 11-34 9 speed.
|
| Agreed. I didn't know about those things because the cassette hub
| manufacturers don't offer them.
|
| As for your
| 12-38 7 speed freewheel, who sells that today?
|
| That was never an off-the-shelf option. You had to build them from
| Suntour Winner Pro freewheels and a couple of loose sprockets. But
| you could do it with readily available parts. I did it a couple of
| times.
|
| 300+% range on the cluster. Not unless its for a special purpose
| bike. Sounds like the marketing for the Rohloff hub. 500+% gear
| range. Only problem is the huge jumps between gears to achieve that.
|
| "Huge" 13% jumps, eh? You sound like my sister who is only
| comfortable between 72 and 74 degrees.
|
| Maybe good for special purpose bikes. But not for ordinary enjoyable
| riding.
|
| I look around and see that most of the people in my town doing
| ordinary enjoyable riding are doing it on one-speed bikes-- fixies,
| cruisers, SS conversions, BMX bikes, and purpose-built SS mountain
| bikes. I guess that's sort of the same in principle as an ideal 10-
| speed "straight block" of 13-13-13-13-13-13-13-13-13-13 gearing, with
| nice tight 0% spacing between gears.
|
| Most of the rest of them are using derailleur bikes with no more than
| seven speeds on the cluster (because the bikes are old enough or cheap
| enough that they never had more gears than that). If you ask them how
| much they mind their "huge" jumps between gears, they won't know what
| you're talking about. The only ones with bikes whose gears have no
| "huge" jumps by your standards are the kit-wearing poseurs. And if
| you want to talk to them, you'll have to look on one of a select few
| roads around here on Sunday morning, chase after them, and stare down
| their scowls.
|
| The rest of the week, the streets belong to those who can't possibly
| enjoy riding because their gears are too far apart. Their smiles must
| be about something else.
|
| Chalo

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

| Having ten sprockets doesn't allow _anything_ that can't be done just
| as well with seven sprockets in the same overall range (besides wreck
| your rear wheel).

*Your* experience based on *your* riding style. Some of us are far pickier
about the cadence we wish to use at any particular time. I was much happier
when 9-speed cassettes came along than with the prior 8-speed systems, yet
find very little advantage (over the range I use, which is 12-27) with a 10.
But I look forward to someone coming up with a 12-29, which would give me
gearing "gaps" I can deal with and the range I would prefer. 7-speed
systems, to me, wouldn't accomplish that.

So you suggest that you can actually _do something_ (besides indulge
your pickiness) with 10-speed that you can't do with 7-speed? Because
that's what I was addressing. Wider range does more things-- for any
rider-- but more sprockets in the same range do the same things.

Heck, if my bikes had 160mm rear spacing and 56cm chainstays, I
wouldn't mind having a sprocket in between 24t and 34t on my usual
11-34 freewheels. But I don't fool myself thinking I could actually
do anything with it that I can't do with the ones I've got.

Chalo

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

I do not recall ever seeing a broken cassette hub axle, aside from one that
someone rode so loose that it became worn through.

I've broken at least two Shimano cassette hub axles in the last ten years. I
weigh about 180 lbs, and my bike and gear another 45 lbs. It doesn't happen often
enough to be a major inconvenience, though.

I can't believe in all your years in the business you've only seen one example.

http://tinyurl.com/3wtaca
http://tinyurl.com/5grt2h

--
Bill Bushnell
http://pobox.com/~bushnell/

In article
,
Chalo wrote:

"Huge" 13% jumps, eh?

Yes, in my world.

You sound like my sister who is only
comfortable between 72 and 74 degrees.

The Boss of the Outfit has a comfort zone
measured with negative numbers.

--
Michael Press

In article ,
"Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote:

| Having ten sprockets doesn't allow _anything_ that can't be done just
| as well with seven sprockets in the same overall range (besides wreck
| your rear wheel).


*Your* experience based on *your* riding style. Some of us are far pickier
about the cadence we wish to use at any particular time. I was much happier
when 9-speed cassettes came along than with the prior 8-speed systems, yet
find very little advantage (over the range I use, which is 12-27) with a 10.
But I look forward to someone coming up with a 12-29, which would give me
gearing "gaps" I can deal with and the range I would prefer. 7-speed
systems, to me, wouldn't accomplish that.

13-23 nine-speed cassette. Two 2-tooth jumps.
It makes me very, very happy.

--
Michael Press

On 15 Kwi, 19:36, Chalo wrote:
So you suggest that you can actually _do something_ (besides indulge
your pickiness) with 10-speed that you can't do with 7-speed? Because
that's what I was addressing. Wider range does more things-- for any
rider-- but more sprockets in the same range do the same things.

I am a die-hard fan of corn-knob type cassettes. They allow me to
manage my cadence much more precisely, especially during the high-
speed riding. 7speed cassettes force me to use triple front. 10 Speeds
allow to carry some extra sprockets to switch triple to double.

--
Adam Kadlubek

13-23 nine-speed cassette. Two 2-tooth jumps.
It makes me very, very happy.

--
Michael Press

Like I said, individuals prefer different things!

But one problem with having such a closely-spaced cassette. You can claim
that you wish you had that perfect gear when you're out there suffering on a
climb, trying to keep up, and that the lack of it is what's holding you
back. But with your cassette, that's a tough claim to prove!

I can do fine with a 12-27 (34/50) up front. Low enough gear for the hills I
ride, and not so widely spaced that I feel like it's worth changing out for
a flat century.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
"Michael Press" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote:

| Having ten sprockets doesn't allow _anything_ that can't be done just
| as well with seven sprockets in the same overall range (besides wreck
| your rear wheel).


*Your* experience based on *your* riding style. Some of us are far
pickier
about the cadence we wish to use at any particular time. I was much
happier
when 9-speed cassettes came along than with the prior 8-speed systems,
yet
find very little advantage (over the range I use, which is 12-27) with a
10.
But I look forward to someone coming up with a 12-29, which would give me
gearing "gaps" I can deal with and the range I would prefer. 7-speed
systems, to me, wouldn't accomplish that.

13-23 nine-speed cassette. Two 2-tooth jumps.
It makes me very, very happy.

--
Michael Press

Sandy wrote:

Chalo a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

So you suggest that you can actually _do something_ (besides indulge
your pickiness) with 10-speed that you can't do with 7-speed?

Go faster, more comfortably, with less stress over longer distances.

Hmm. Too bad Merckx didn't have a ten-speed cassette hub instead of
a lousy five-speed freewheel; it sounds he could have been a contender
for the world land speed record instead of Le Tour.

Chalo

I do not recall ever seeing a broken cassette hub axle, aside from one
that
someone rode so loose that it became worn through.

I've broken at least two Shimano cassette hub axles in the last ten years.
I
weigh about 180 lbs, and my bike and gear another 45 lbs. It doesn't
happen often
enough to be a major inconvenience, though.

I can't believe in all your years in the business you've only seen one
example.

Bill: Believe it, it's true. Were your broken axles on recumbents?

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA


"Bill Bushnell" wrote in message
...
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

I do not recall ever seeing a broken cassette hub axle, aside from one
that
someone rode so loose that it became worn through.

I've broken at least two Shimano cassette hub axles in the last ten years.
I
weigh about 180 lbs, and my bike and gear another 45 lbs. It doesn't
happen often
enough to be a major inconvenience, though.

I can't believe in all your years in the business you've only seen one
example.

http://tinyurl.com/3wtaca
http://tinyurl.com/5grt2h

--
Bill Bushnell
http://pobox.com/~bushnell/