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#11
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Plastic Floating in the Pacific!
On Feb 8, 9:46*pm, Mike Vandeman wrote:
On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 20:20:34 GMT, "Jeff Strickland" wrote: I would like to direct your attention to the '70s, if I may. Back then, the problem was paper bags eating up trees at an alarming rate, so they came up with plastic bags because of ENVIRONMENTAL concerns -- paper eats trees, eating trees is bad for the environment, so let's use plastic and save the trees. Not a bad argument as arguments go, and I generally answered the question, "paper or plastic?" with, "plastic, please." Now, I am the bad guy again because plastic floats. Just like a mountain biker: blame the environmentalists. No one forced you to use plastic. No one forced you to take a jet to an international environmental conference, DUH! |
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#12
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Plastic Floating in the Pacific!
On Feb 8, 9:44*pm, Mike Vandeman wrote:
On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 08:20:15 -0800 (PST), Bruce Jensen wrote: On Feb 7, 5:05*pm, Mike Vandeman wrote: http://marine-litter.gpa.unep.org/documents/World's_largest_landfill.pdf Beyond this discussion, Mike, is there any other documentation, or discussion of the estimated costs for cleanup? I don't know, but I'd like to help. Maybe you could fly over the area in a jet that is spewing toxins into the air. |
#13
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Plastic Floating in the Pacific!
"Jeff Strickland" wrote Back then, the problem was paper bags eating up trees at an alarming rate, so they came up with plastic bags because of ENVIRONMENTAL concerns -- paper eats trees, eating trees is bad for the environment, so let's use plastic and save the trees. Not a bad argument as arguments go, and I generally answered the question, "paper or plastic?" with, "plastic, please." Virtually all of my groceries come home in cloth (probably hemp) bags, and have done for the last 15 years. Same bags every time. They are great because they clasp shut and can be carried on the sholder. They are the perfect size, capable of holding about 20 lbs each - extremely strong, durable, washable, and usable for a variety of other purposes. Unfortunately they have become worn and I can't find similar replacements. A few days ago I picked up a reusable tarp like plastic bag. Inferior but still reusable and made from 100% recycled materials. Bag cost me a buck. |
#14
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Plastic Floating in the Pacific!
On Feb 7, 8:05*pm, Mike Vandeman wrote:
http://marine-litter.gpa.unep.org/documents/World's_largest_landfill.pdf -- I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.) Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of! http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande Mikey.... Maybe you can help me with something you specialize in....everytime I read your posts I get sick to my stomach and puke. Since your true specialty has nothing to due with real science or ecology or naturalism...and deals with being a dietary lunchlady...I figured you might be able to help me. ~Magua~ |
#15
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Plastic Floating in the Pacific!
I agree Jeff, plastic was the way to save trees, now look at it. LOL
We use re-usable 'woven tarp like' plastic bags made from recycled plastic for groceries. They hold a lot and seem to last a long time. Mike Jeff Strickland wrote: I would like to direct your attention to the '70s, if I may. Back then, the problem was paper bags eating up trees at an alarming rate, so they came up with plastic bags because of ENVIRONMENTAL concerns -- paper eats trees, eating trees is bad for the environment, so let's use plastic and save the trees. Not a bad argument as arguments go, and I generally answered the question, "paper or plastic?" with, "plastic, please." Now, I am the bad guy again because plastic floats. Environmentalism comes with a wealth of unintended consequences -- we save a tree but spoil the water, make electricity from wind but chop up a bird, (leaping forward a few decades ... ) drive fuel cell cars and flood the side of the road -- that seem to be worse than the problem we wanted to remedy when we embarked on the environmentalist agenda. Having said that, it is refreshing to see Vandeman get excited about a real issue ... "Mike Vandeman" wrote in message ... http://marine-litter.gpa.unep.org/documents/World's_largest_landfill.pdf -- I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.) Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of! http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande |
#16
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Plastic Floating in the Pacific!
"Mike Vandeman" wrote in message ... On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 20:20:34 GMT, "Jeff Strickland" wrote: I would like to direct your attention to the '70s, if I may. Back then, the problem was paper bags eating up trees at an alarming rate, so they came up with plastic bags because of ENVIRONMENTAL concerns -- paper eats trees, eating trees is bad for the environment, so let's use plastic and save the trees. Not a bad argument as arguments go, and I generally answered the question, "paper or plastic?" with, "plastic, please." Now, I am the bad guy again because plastic floats. Just like a mountain biker: blame the environmentalists. No one forced you to use plastic. There was no force, there was an option. Now, because I exercised the "environmentally promoted" option and selected plastic over paper -- in an effort to save the trees -- I am now demonized by a different set of environmentalist concerns. Which do you prefer, paper or plastic? Paper descimates the forest, plastic floats on the water. An obvious solution is to buy a few dozen canvas - or other material - bags to go shopping, then only use paper or plastic for the occasional trip to the market that does not begin from the house where the canvas bags are stored between uses. This would cut down on both paper and plastic. But, as always, you miss the point, several points actually, while making up false and entirely irrelevent poiints. |
#17
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Plastic Floating in the Pacific!
"V-for-Vendicar" wrote in message news "Jeff Strickland" wrote Back then, the problem was paper bags eating up trees at an alarming rate, so they came up with plastic bags because of ENVIRONMENTAL concerns -- paper eats trees, eating trees is bad for the environment, so let's use plastic and save the trees. Not a bad argument as arguments go, and I generally answered the question, "paper or plastic?" with, "plastic, please." Virtually all of my groceries come home in cloth (probably hemp) bags, and have done for the last 15 years. Same bags every time. They are great because they clasp shut and can be carried on the sholder. They are the perfect size, capable of holding about 20 lbs each - extremely strong, durable, washable, and usable for a variety of other purposes. Unfortunately they have become worn and I can't find similar replacements. A few days ago I picked up a reusable tarp like plastic bag. Inferior but still reusable and made from 100% recycled materials. Bag cost me a buck. That's great. I can see this -- canvas bags -- happening at my house soon as well. The point I was making though is the unintended consequence of Paper or Plastic. Paper takes trees, and this is an environmental concern and the customary way to get groceries home for more than half of my life, and all of my grand parent's lives. We recognize one environmental problem, and remedy it by going to a different material at the checkstand. The remedy has an unintended consequence that is just now being recognized, 20-ish years later. |
#18
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Plastic Floating in the Pacific!
On Feb 8, 11:03*pm, "V-for-Vendicar"
wrote: "Jeff Strickland" wrote Back then, the problem was paper bags eating up trees at an alarming rate, so they came up with plastic bags because of ENVIRONMENTAL concerns -- * paper eats trees, eating trees is bad for the environment, so let's use plastic and save the trees. Not a bad argument as arguments go, and I generally answered the question, "paper or plastic?" with, "plastic, please." Virtually all of my groceries come home in cloth (probably hemp) bags, and have done for the last 15 years. *Same bags every time. They are great because they clasp shut and can be carried on the sholder. They are the perfect size, capable of holding about 20 lbs each - *extremely strong, durable, washable, and usable for a variety of other purposes. Unfortunately they have become worn and I can't find similar replacements. A few days ago I picked up a reusable tarp like plastic bag. *Inferior but still reusable and made from 100% recycled materials. Bag cost me a buck. While I am no fan of Wal-Mart, reps came to my childrens school and gave a propaganda speech and each child recieved a reusable shopping bag that is (according to the tag) "100% recylable, is made from 85% recyled materials, is made from approximately 4 plastic soad bottles, can replace 50 shopping bags and can carry the same weight as2-3 plastic shopping bags". Wal-mart states they have "a goal of zero waste by 2025 in all Wal-Mart and Sam's Club stores." It's a start I guess. |
#19
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Plastic Floating in the Pacific!
"Jeff Strickland" wrote The point I was making though is the unintended consequence of Paper or Plastic. Paper takes trees, and this is an environmental concern and the customary way to get groceries home for more than half of my life, and all of my grand parent's lives. We recognize one environmental problem, and remedy it by going to a different material at the checkstand. The remedy has an unintended consequence that is just now being recognized, 20-ish years later. God I'm getting old. I remember when Paper bags were the only thing availble (at the grocery) They worked poorly, ripping regularly and dumping their content on the floor. Plastic was an improvement - at least initially - new plastic bags are so thin that they are about as unreliable as the paper - so much for corporations providing optimal products. In any case, it was patently obvious as the plastic bags became more popular that they were and would continue to be a burden on the environment. The solution of course is to recycle them. But at the time no infrastructure existed for recycling anything but metals. Today, the Grocery store I go to has a nice little cylindrical container into which old plastic bags can be placed, and that is where the plastic bags that I receive - automatically - go. If you find a source for some appropriate canvas bags that can be carried on the sholder, let me know. After 15 to 20 years the ones I have now are not long for this world. |
#20
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Plastic Floating in the Pacific!
"V-for-Vendicar" wrote in message ... "Jeff Strickland" wrote The point I was making though is the unintended consequence of Paper or Plastic. Paper takes trees, and this is an environmental concern and the customary way to get groceries home for more than half of my life, and all of my grand parent's lives. We recognize one environmental problem, and remedy it by going to a different material at the checkstand. The remedy has an unintended consequence that is just now being recognized, 20-ish years later. God I'm getting old. I remember when Paper bags were the only thing availble (at the grocery) They worked poorly, ripping regularly and dumping their content on the floor. Plastic was an improvement - at least initially - new plastic bags are so thin that they are about as unreliable as the paper - so much for corporations providing optimal products. In any case, it was patently obvious as the plastic bags became more popular that they were and would continue to be a burden on the environment. The solution of course is to recycle them. But at the time no infrastructure existed for recycling anything but metals. Today, the Grocery store I go to has a nice little cylindrical container into which old plastic bags can be placed, and that is where the plastic bags that I receive - automatically - go. If you find a source for some appropriate canvas bags that can be carried on the sholder, let me know. After 15 to 20 years the ones I have now are not long for this world. We do not recycle grocery bags, we reuse them. They are perfect to clean the cat box and pick up the dog crap from the lawn. It is good practice to tie any plastic grocery bag into a knot if you throw it away because the knot makes the bag so it won't easily blow away. It won't float in the air if it is tied in a knot. |
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