Tin plated wire for binding spokes

Tom Sherman wrote:
"jim beam" wrote:
Nick L Plate wrote:
On 7 Mar, 19:19, jim beam wrote:
Nick L Plate wrote:
Is the bond created using tin plated steel wire and tinmans solder
more resilient than that made with zinc plated wire. �For use on zinc
plated, chrome or stainless spokes. �Also copper plated wire.
TJ
as long as the solder wets the spoke and the binding wire, it doesn't
really matter. �since it's easy to solder to stainless if you use the
right flux, you may as well also use a stainless binding wire and
stainless spokes.

NEVER use chrome spokes - the plating cracks and initiates fatigue -
very short lived.

I have used chrome spokes (not soldered) without succumbing to
fatigue. Do you mean there is a problem after soldering?
TJ

no, i mean that as you bend them to lace the wheel, the brittle chrome
plate which is not as elastic as its substrate, cracks. each crack is
an initiation point for fatigue.

Why is this a problem for spokes, but not for rims?


rims don't usually get bent during lacing!

but if you've ever used chromed steel rims, you'll notice that they do
tend to rust around the spoke holes - where the chrome has cracked.

Tom Sherman wrote:
Andrew Muzi wrote:
Nick L Plate wrote:
Is the bond created using tin plated steel wire and tinmans solder
more resilient than that made with zinc plated wire. For use on zinc
plated, chrome or stainless spokes. Also copper plated wire.

A Muzi wrote:
A small area of solder after the ties are wrapped is simply to keep the
wire from unwinding. After soldering, the excess wire is snipped away.
This is not to advocate the technique, but only to clarify that the
solder should not adhere to the spoke itself. You can't readily solder
to stainless without silver (which is much hotter than lead solder) and
at any rate heating the spoke itself enough to wet with lead is also
more heat than is needed.
We use plain steel mechanic's wire, not tinned material. Finished wraps
get washed to remove any flux residue.
Although not a functional improvement to a wheel, some riders prefer
the
look, especially on period restorations. What's a Spence Wolf Cinelli
without tied spokes?

Nick L Plate wrote:
If there is no metallurgical bonding you cannot expect a gain in
lateral and torsional stiffness. The solder must bond to the spoke to
eliminate the relative longitudinal movement between the spokes. This
movement is evident in the wear at the crossing in a laced(woven)
wheel. I am doing it for 'functional improvement', not asthetics. It
also simplifies and speeds the swapping of a rim.

Other testing could find no such effect but, as I said, no harm if you
prefer that (tedious) process.

Magical things happen on Trevor's bicycles.


magical things happen to jobst.bigboy.brandt's bicycles too. fatigue
elimination in materials with no endurance limit for example.

Tim McNamara wrote:
[...]
The torsional load is transmitted along the spokes' axes, to that's a
red herring. Vertical loads are transmitted the same way, so that's
another red herring. Lateral loads are small to none unless you're
skidding sideways or performing some kind of cycle gymnastic (e.g,
sprinting like Abdu).[...]

Trevor swings 10 feet side-to-side while sprinting, as Carl Fogel likes
to remind us.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
LOCAL CACTUS EATS CYCLIST - datakoll

Tim McNamara wrote:
Izzat like binding feet?

Izzat you gene?

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
LOCAL CACTUS EATS CYCLIST - datakoll

In article
,
Nick L Plate wrote:

On 8 Mar, 00:33, Tim McNamara wrote: in his
recipe for today
In article
,
*Nick L Plate wrote:



On 7 Mar, 22:31, A Muzi wrote:
Nick L Plate wrote:

If there is no metallurgical bonding you cannot expect a gain in
lateral and torsional stiffness. The solder must bond to the
spoke to eliminate the relative longitudinal movement between the
spokes. *This movement is evident in the wear at the crossing in
a laced(woven) wheel. *I am doing it for 'functional
improvement', not asthetics. *It also simplifies and speeds the
swapping of a rim.

Other testing could find no such effect but, as I said, no harm if
you prefer that (tedious) process.

Testing for cosmetic ties will show little, if any gains in structure
stiffness. *Ties which have bonded at two crossings with steel
binding do raise the operational rigidity of the hub/spoke/rim
assembly.

Starting to fudge already? *That didn't take long, Trevor.

Sugar and cream.


What's the tensile strength of the solder you are advocating? *How much
movement do you think there is at the spoke junction under normal use?

There is no tensile strength for solder. There is joint strength.

Non sequitur.

Enough movement to make it worthwile to reduce.

How much? 0.0000001" 0.5"?

In article ,
Tom Sherman wrote:

Tim McNamara wrote:
Izzat like binding feet?

Izzat you gene?

SSSSHHHHHHHHH!

On 9 Mar, 03:31, Tim McNamara wrote:
In article
,
*Nick L Plate wrote:



On 8 Mar, 00:33, Tim McNamara wrote: in his
recipe for today
In article
,
*Nick L Plate wrote:

On 7 Mar, 22:31, A Muzi wrote:
Nick L Plate wrote:

If there is no metallurgical bonding you cannot expect a gain in
lateral and torsional stiffness. The solder must bond to the
spoke to eliminate the relative longitudinal movement between the
spokes. *This movement is evident in the wear at the crossing in
a laced(woven) wheel. *I am doing it for 'functional
improvement', not asthetics. *It also simplifies and speeds the
swapping of a rim.

Other testing could find no such effect but, as I said, no harm if
you prefer that (tedious) process.

Testing for cosmetic ties will show little, if any gains in structure
stiffness. *Ties which have bonded at two crossings with steel
binding do raise the operational rigidity of the hub/spoke/rim
assembly.

Starting to fudge already? *That didn't take long, Trevor.

Sugar and cream.

What's the tensile strength of the solder you are advocating? *How much
movement do you think there is at the spoke junction under normal use?

There is no tensile strength for solder. *There is joint strength.

Non sequitur.

Enough movement to make it worthwile to reduce.

How much? *0.0000001" *0.5"?

Enough to wear the spokes.

On 7 Mar, 20:04, jim beam wrote:
Nick L Plate wrote:
On 7 Mar, 19:19, jim beam wrote:
Nick L Plate wrote:
Is the bond created using tin plated steel wire and tinmans solder
more resilient than that made with zinc plated wire. For use on zinc
plated, chrome or stainless spokes. Also copper plated wire.
TJ
as long as the solder wets the spoke and the binding wire, it doesn't
really matter. since it's easy to solder to stainless if you use the
right flux, you may as well also use a stainless binding wire and
stainless spokes.

NEVER use chrome spokes - the plating cracks and initiates fatigue -
very short lived.

I have used chrome spokes (not soldered) without succumbing to
fatigue. *Do you mean there is a problem after soldering?
TJ

no, i mean that as you bend them to lace the wheel, the brittle chrome
plate which is not as elastic as its substrate, cracks. *each crack is
an initiation point for fatigue.

I don't think this is an issue with quality spokes. I have a wheel
probably 10 000+ miles with cracking of the chromed spokes, no fatigue
failure. And when a handful of spokes was ripped out of the wheel
they snapped at the butt nearest the hub.
TJ

On Mon, 9 Mar 2009 09:17:14 -0700 (PDT), Nick L Plate
wrote:

On 9 Mar, 03:31, Tim McNamara wrote:
In article
,
*Nick L Plate wrote:



On 8 Mar, 00:33, Tim McNamara wrote: in his
recipe for today
In article
,
*Nick L Plate wrote:

On 7 Mar, 22:31, A Muzi wrote:
Nick L Plate wrote:

If there is no metallurgical bonding you cannot expect a gain in
lateral and torsional stiffness. The solder must bond to the
spoke to eliminate the relative longitudinal movement between the
spokes. *This movement is evident in the wear at the crossing in
a laced(woven) wheel. *I am doing it for 'functional
improvement', not asthetics. *It also simplifies and speeds the
swapping of a rim.

Other testing could find no such effect but, as I said, no harm if
you prefer that (tedious) process.

Testing for cosmetic ties will show little, if any gains in structure
stiffness. *Ties which have bonded at two crossings with steel
binding do raise the operational rigidity of the hub/spoke/rim
assembly.

Starting to fudge already? *That didn't take long, Trevor.

Sugar and cream.

What's the tensile strength of the solder you are advocating? *How much
movement do you think there is at the spoke junction under normal use?

There is no tensile strength for solder. *There is joint strength.

Non sequitur.

Enough movement to make it worthwile to reduce.

How much? *0.0000001" *0.5"?

Enough to wear the spokes.

Dear Trevor,

We're still waiting for a photo of that wear.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

On 9 Mar, 16:48, wrote:
On Mon, 9 Mar 2009 09:17:14 -0700 (PDT), Nick L Plate




Enough movement to make it worthwile to reduce.

How much? *0.0000001" *0.5"?

Enough to wear the spokes.

We're still waiting for a photo of that wear.

That'll be wear of 1/3 of the diameter of the spoke.
I've not seen the wheel recently, I think the rim was requesitioned
for a wheel arch repair.
TJ