Shimano Nexus rear hub

On 16/12/15 08:20, Andre Jute wrote:


I wore out two Shimano 8 speed hub gearboxes under 5000 miles. By
contrast, a Rohloff box was just nicely run in approaching 10,000.
All the same, I liked the Shimano boxes as a cheap alternative to
derailleurs. At the actual street price for a Shimano gearbox and
fitting kit, you can afford to fit a new box every 5000 miles. The
Rohloff is superior in use and lasts forever, but at that price you
want to know you'll keep and use it for many years; it's not a
trivial, trendy purchase, like a Shimano 8 speed, nor for the sort of
people who change their bikes more often than their underwear.



Was that 5000 miles each?

What was worn out, and was the worn out bit repairable without replacing
the hub shell?

I get a lot more than 5000 miles from a cassette & two chains, and a
rear derailleur and freehub lasts many cassettes. Jockey wheels may
wear, but they're replaceable without wheel rebuilding.

Nothing I've read about IGHs other than a Rohloff makes me want to
invest time and money to try one. I suspect I'd kill anything other
than a Rohloff sooner than I'd expect, and be frustrated by ****
engineering.

--
JS

On Tue, 15 Dec 2015 08:09:11 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 12/15/2015 6:28 AM, John B. wrote:

I'm beginning to see these geared hubs on some of the cheaper flat bar
road bikes here and am sort of wondering whether they might be just
the thing for riding in Bangkok.

Bangkok is built on an alluvial plain and is essentially flat. The
largest "hills" I encounter riding here are the "hump back" bridges
and if a bike has three gears (assuming the right ratio) it would be
enough for the majority of my Bangkok riding.

Given the added complexities of the usual front/rear derailer system I
am wondering whether one of the various Shimano Nexus geared hubs
might not be "just the thing".

It seems to me that the chain would be similar to the old single speed
chains that lasted forever and no derailers to keep in tune and
sprockets and cogs to wear out.

I am thinking that a 5 or 7 speed hub would more then cover all city
riding assuming, of course, that the gear ratios were in the right
range. I believe that with an odd number of rear gears, probably 5 or
7, if the middle gear was, say 60 gear inches, and the ratios were in
say 10 - 15% steps that it would cover 99.9% of all the riding I do in
Bangkok.

Has anyone done this? Are rear cogs available in sufficient sizes to
be able to set up any initial gear ratio that one desires? Do the hubs
last? Any special loves/hates?

Any suggestions, advice?

--
cheers,

John B.


My daughter enjoys her Raleigh in Chicago with Shimano 8
gearbox on a flat bar road bike (discontinued model Alysa 8).

For regular city use, rider needs a wrench to change the
rear when flat but the Shimano gear linkage is simple and
quick with fingers only.

Maybe wing nuts?
--
cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 15 Dec 2015 13:57:35 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 12/15/2015 7:28 AM, John B. wrote:

I'm beginning to see these geared hubs on some of the cheaper flat bar
road bikes here and am sort of wondering whether they might be just
the thing for riding in Bangkok.

Bangkok is built on an alluvial plain and is essentially flat. The
largest "hills" I encounter riding here are the "hump back" bridges
and if a bike has three gears (assuming the right ratio) it would be
enough for the majority of my Bangkok riding.

Given the added complexities of the usual front/rear derailer system I
am wondering whether one of the various Shimano Nexus geared hubs
might not be "just the thing".

It seems to me that the chain would be similar to the old single speed
chains that lasted forever and no derailers to keep in tune and
sprockets and cogs to wear out.

I am thinking that a 5 or 7 speed hub would more then cover all city
riding assuming, of course, that the gear ratios were in the right
range. I believe that with an odd number of rear gears, probably 5 or
7, if the middle gear was, say 60 gear inches, and the ratios were in
say 10 - 15% steps that it would cover 99.9% of all the riding I do in
Bangkok.

Has anyone done this? Are rear cogs available in sufficient sizes to
be able to set up any initial gear ratio that one desires? Do the hubs
last? Any special loves/hates?

Any suggestions, advice?

I have no first-hand knowledge, but I thought that Shimano's 7 speed
hubs had a less-than-stellar reputation for reliability.

Possibly true, I hadn't done any research as to "what" hub to use and
am still in the "is it a good idea" part of the problem.

You might find this discussion interesting:
http://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-me...y-8-speed.html

I'm always ambiguous about discussion groups. The main complaint about
the hubs seems to be that if you don't lubricate the hubs and keep the
bearings adjusted it will likely fail... and it is just so much
trouble to do that, but one guy says he has been using the geared hubs
for 5 years with no problems.

(after all, reading here I discover that MTB bikes break regularly,
you gotta have special lights, and besides it is just sooo dangerous
to ride a bike that especial lanes are needed to be safe :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

On Tuesday, December 15, 2015 at 10:32:17 PM UTC, James wrote:
On 16/12/15 00:09, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/15/2015 6:28 AM, John B. wrote:

I'm beginning to see these geared hubs on some of the cheaper flat bar
road bikes here and am sort of wondering whether they might be just
the thing for riding in Bangkok.

Bangkok is built on an alluvial plain and is essentially flat. The
largest "hills" I encounter riding here are the "hump back" bridges
and if a bike has three gears (assuming the right ratio) it would be
enough for the majority of my Bangkok riding.

Given the added complexities of the usual front/rear derailer system I
am wondering whether one of the various Shimano Nexus geared hubs
might not be "just the thing".

It seems to me that the chain would be similar to the old single speed
chains that lasted forever and no derailers to keep in tune and
sprockets and cogs to wear out.

I am thinking that a 5 or 7 speed hub would more then cover all city
riding assuming, of course, that the gear ratios were in the right
range. I believe that with an odd number of rear gears, probably 5 or
7, if the middle gear was, say 60 gear inches, and the ratios were in
say 10 - 15% steps that it would cover 99.9% of all the riding I do in
Bangkok.

Has anyone done this? Are rear cogs available in sufficient sizes to
be able to set up any initial gear ratio that one desires? Do the hubs
last? Any special loves/hates?

Any suggestions, advice?

--
cheers,

John B.


My daughter enjoys her Raleigh in Chicago with Shimano 8 gearbox on a
flat bar road bike (discontinued model Alysa 8).

For regular city use, rider needs a wrench to change the rear when flat
but the Shimano gear linkage is simple and quick with fingers only.


Why not install large wingnuts on the axle ends, for wrench free wheel
removal? Worried about wheel theft?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Retro-bicycl.../dp/B008H0P5Z0

--
JS

Yo're misled by the misinformation already in this thread. Shimano's hub gearboxes, the premium 8sp versions anyhow, are not supplied with quick releases but with solid axles and domed nuts. There's nowhere to put the end of an Allen key into. And a common socket won't do it, you need a deep socket or a rather large, heavy flat spanner, in most cases two flat spanners. Thieves are too elegant to have two large flat spanners distort their clothes. But wingnuts would restore their opportunity. Wingnuts from the hardware store won't do, though: the axle nuts are serrated on the underside of their built-in collar, so wingnuts would require quite a bit of machining.

Andre Jute

On 16/12/15 14:43, Andre Jute wrote:
On Tuesday, December 15, 2015 at 10:32:17 PM UTC, James wrote:
On 16/12/15 00:09, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/15/2015 6:28 AM, John B. wrote:

I'm beginning to see these geared hubs on some of the cheaper
flat bar road bikes here and am sort of wondering whether they
might be just the thing for riding in Bangkok.

Bangkok is built on an alluvial plain and is essentially flat.
The largest "hills" I encounter riding here are the "hump back"
bridges and if a bike has three gears (assuming the right
ratio) it would be enough for the majority of my Bangkok
riding.

Given the added complexities of the usual front/rear derailer
system I am wondering whether one of the various Shimano Nexus
geared hubs might not be "just the thing".

It seems to me that the chain would be similar to the old
single speed chains that lasted forever and no derailers to
keep in tune and sprockets and cogs to wear out.

I am thinking that a 5 or 7 speed hub would more then cover all
city riding assuming, of course, that the gear ratios were in
the right range. I believe that with an odd number of rear
gears, probably 5 or 7, if the middle gear was, say 60 gear
inches, and the ratios were in say 10 - 15% steps that it would
cover 99.9% of all the riding I do in Bangkok.

Has anyone done this? Are rear cogs available in sufficient
sizes to be able to set up any initial gear ratio that one
desires? Do the hubs last? Any special loves/hates?

Any suggestions, advice?

-- cheers,

John B.


My daughter enjoys her Raleigh in Chicago with Shimano 8 gearbox
on a flat bar road bike (discontinued model Alysa 8).

For regular city use, rider needs a wrench to change the rear
when flat but the Shimano gear linkage is simple and quick with
fingers only.


Why not install large wingnuts on the axle ends, for wrench free
wheel removal? Worried about wheel theft?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Retro-bicycl.../dp/B008H0P5Z0



Yo're misled by the misinformation already in this thread. Shimano's
hub gearboxes, the premium 8sp versions anyhow, are not supplied with
quick releases but with solid axles and domed nuts. There's nowhere
to put the end of an Allen key into. And a common socket won't do it,
you need a deep socket or a rather large, heavy flat spanner, in most
cases two flat spanners. Thieves are too elegant to have two large
flat spanners distort their clothes. But wingnuts would restore their
opportunity. Wingnuts from the hardware store won't do, though: the
axle nuts are serrated on the underside of their built-in collar, so
wingnuts would require quite a bit of machining.


Did you look at the link I posted? They are not wingnuts from the
hardware store. They are designed for bicycle hubs with solid axle.

--
JS

On 16/12/15 00:08, James wrote:
On 16/12/15 08:20, Andre Jute wrote:


I wore out two Shimano 8 speed hub gearboxes under 5000 miles. By
contrast, a Rohloff box was just nicely run in approaching 10,000.
All the same, I liked the Shimano boxes as a cheap alternative to
derailleurs. At the actual street price for a Shimano gearbox and
fitting kit, you can afford to fit a new box every 5000 miles. The
Rohloff is superior in use and lasts forever, but at that price you
want to know you'll keep and use it for many years; it's not a
trivial, trendy purchase, like a Shimano 8 speed, nor for the sort of
people who change their bikes more often than their underwear.



Was that 5000 miles each?

What was worn out, and was the worn out bit repairable without replacing
the hub shell?

I get a lot more than 5000 miles from a cassette & two chains, and a
rear derailleur and freehub lasts many cassettes. Jockey wheels may
wear, but they're replaceable without wheel rebuilding.

Nothing I've read about IGHs other than a Rohloff makes me want to
invest time and money to try one. I suspect I'd kill anything other
than a Rohloff sooner than I'd expect, and be frustrated by ****
engineering.

Thisis an argument of sorts. The deraileur system, being exposed, is
easily replaceable. But I got tired of a new chain every year, a new
xasstette every othe year, and a new chain ring on the third.

The 8 was maintenance free. The 11 requires an oil change (if you
believe Shimano, I've did one at 18 months)m waiting for the next. But
new chains etc are a thing of the past.

The Rohloff requires annual oil changes as well :-(

On Wed, 16 Dec 2015 15:02:49 +1000, James
wrote:

On 16/12/15 14:43, Andre Jute wrote:
On Tuesday, December 15, 2015 at 10:32:17 PM UTC, James wrote:
On 16/12/15 00:09, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/15/2015 6:28 AM, John B. wrote:

I'm beginning to see these geared hubs on some of the cheaper
flat bar road bikes here and am sort of wondering whether they
might be just the thing for riding in Bangkok.

Bangkok is built on an alluvial plain and is essentially flat.
The largest "hills" I encounter riding here are the "hump back"
bridges and if a bike has three gears (assuming the right
ratio) it would be enough for the majority of my Bangkok
riding.

Given the added complexities of the usual front/rear derailer
system I am wondering whether one of the various Shimano Nexus
geared hubs might not be "just the thing".

It seems to me that the chain would be similar to the old
single speed chains that lasted forever and no derailers to
keep in tune and sprockets and cogs to wear out.

I am thinking that a 5 or 7 speed hub would more then cover all
city riding assuming, of course, that the gear ratios were in
the right range. I believe that with an odd number of rear
gears, probably 5 or 7, if the middle gear was, say 60 gear
inches, and the ratios were in say 10 - 15% steps that it would
cover 99.9% of all the riding I do in Bangkok.

Has anyone done this? Are rear cogs available in sufficient
sizes to be able to set up any initial gear ratio that one
desires? Do the hubs last? Any special loves/hates?

Any suggestions, advice?

-- cheers,

John B.


My daughter enjoys her Raleigh in Chicago with Shimano 8 gearbox
on a flat bar road bike (discontinued model Alysa 8).

For regular city use, rider needs a wrench to change the rear
when flat but the Shimano gear linkage is simple and quick with
fingers only.


Why not install large wingnuts on the axle ends, for wrench free
wheel removal? Worried about wheel theft?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Retro-bicycl.../dp/B008H0P5Z0



Yo're misled by the misinformation already in this thread. Shimano's
hub gearboxes, the premium 8sp versions anyhow, are not supplied with
quick releases but with solid axles and domed nuts. There's nowhere
to put the end of an Allen key into. And a common socket won't do it,
you need a deep socket or a rather large, heavy flat spanner, in most
cases two flat spanners. Thieves are too elegant to have two large
flat spanners distort their clothes. But wingnuts would restore their
opportunity. Wingnuts from the hardware store won't do, though: the
axle nuts are serrated on the underside of their built-in collar, so
wingnuts would require quite a bit of machining.


Did you look at the link I posted? They are not wingnuts from the
hardware store. They are designed for bicycle hubs with solid axle.

Does one leave one's 10K racing bike alone, in strange places, where
thieves lurk?
--
cheers,

John B.

On Wednesday, December 16, 2015 at 5:03:04 AM UTC, James wrote:
On 16/12/15 14:43, Andre Jute wrote:
On Tuesday, December 15, 2015 at 10:32:17 PM UTC, James wrote:
On 16/12/15 00:09, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/15/2015 6:28 AM, John B. wrote:

I'm beginning to see these geared hubs on some of the cheaper
flat bar road bikes here and am sort of wondering whether they
might be just the thing for riding in Bangkok.

Bangkok is built on an alluvial plain and is essentially flat.
The largest "hills" I encounter riding here are the "hump back"
bridges and if a bike has three gears (assuming the right
ratio) it would be enough for the majority of my Bangkok
riding.

Given the added complexities of the usual front/rear derailer
system I am wondering whether one of the various Shimano Nexus
geared hubs might not be "just the thing".

It seems to me that the chain would be similar to the old
single speed chains that lasted forever and no derailers to
keep in tune and sprockets and cogs to wear out.

I am thinking that a 5 or 7 speed hub would more then cover all
city riding assuming, of course, that the gear ratios were in
the right range. I believe that with an odd number of rear
gears, probably 5 or 7, if the middle gear was, say 60 gear
inches, and the ratios were in say 10 - 15% steps that it would
cover 99.9% of all the riding I do in Bangkok.

Has anyone done this? Are rear cogs available in sufficient
sizes to be able to set up any initial gear ratio that one
desires? Do the hubs last? Any special loves/hates?

Any suggestions, advice?

-- cheers,

John B.


My daughter enjoys her Raleigh in Chicago with Shimano 8 gearbox
on a flat bar road bike (discontinued model Alysa 8).

For regular city use, rider needs a wrench to change the rear
when flat but the Shimano gear linkage is simple and quick with
fingers only.


Why not install large wingnuts on the axle ends, for wrench free
wheel removal? Worried about wheel theft?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Retro-bicycl.../dp/B008H0P5Z0



Yo're misled by the misinformation already in this thread. Shimano's
hub gearboxes, the premium 8sp versions anyhow, are not supplied with
quick releases but with solid axles and domed nuts. There's nowhere
to put the end of an Allen key into. And a common socket won't do it,
you need a deep socket or a rather large, heavy flat spanner, in most
cases two flat spanners. Thieves are too elegant to have two large
flat spanners distort their clothes. But wingnuts would restore their
opportunity. Wingnuts from the hardware store won't do, though: the
axle nuts are serrated on the underside of their built-in collar, so
wingnuts would require quite a bit of machining.


Did you look at the link I posted? They are not wingnuts from the
hardware store. They are designed for bicycle hubs with solid axle.

--
JS

The link wouldn't open for me the first time. I went back and it worked. Thanks for repeating the headsup. Those wingnuts would make it tempting and easy for a thief to steal the wheels. They'd make fixing a flat easy though; on the other hand, a typical tyre to match to a Shimano hub gearbox is Marathon Plus or an equally flat-proof workalike, so flats are very rare indeed in a thoughfully specified bike of the type into which a 7- or 8-speed Nexus box fits naturally.

Andre Jute
Imperturbable

On Wednesday, December 16, 2015 at 9:03:50 AM UTC-5, Andre Jute wrote:
On Wednesday, December 16, 2015 at 5:03:04 AM UTC, James wrote:
Sipped
The link wouldn't open for me the first time. I went back and it worked. Thanks for repeating the headsup. Those wingnuts would make it tempting and easy for a thief to steal the wheels. They'd make fixing a flat easy though; on the other hand, a typical tyre to match to a Shimano hub gearbox is Marathon Plus or an equally flat-proof workalike, so flats are very rare indeed in a thoughfully specified bike of the type into which a 7- or 8-speed Nexus box fits naturally.

Andre Jute

There's this wonderful invention that really helps prevent the theft of unattended wheels on bicycles. It's called a lock! ;)

Pass the lock through the wheel as well as the frame and it doesn't matter what's used to secure the rear wheel to the frame. A dedicated thief will have a tool to fit any nut. Thus wingnuts are not that less secure than regular nuts.

Cheers

On Tuesday, December 15, 2015 at 11:08:36 PM UTC, James wrote:
On 16/12/15 08:20, Andre Jute wrote:


I wore out two Shimano 8 speed hub gearboxes under 5000 miles. By
contrast, a Rohloff box was just nicely run in approaching 10,000.
All the same, I liked the Shimano boxes as a cheap alternative to
derailleurs. At the actual street price for a Shimano gearbox and
fitting kit, you can afford to fit a new box every 5000 miles. The
Rohloff is superior in use and lasts forever, but at that price you
want to know you'll keep and use it for many years; it's not a
trivial, trendy purchase, like a Shimano 8 speed, nor for the sort of
people who change their bikes more often than their underwear.



Was that 5000 miles each?

The 5000 was someone else's reference point. My Shimano Nexus hub gear boxes boxes wore out/broke at 3200km/2000m and at less than that. You read that right; there isn't a zero missing. Reliable people on the Continent, in places where these Nexus gearboxes are almost the default fitment to everything but road bikes, say 50,000km (extra zero, right), about 30,000m, is the upper limit that those run with good service, and that poor service doesn't wreck them too fast.

What was worn out, and was the worn out bit repairable without replacing
the hub shell?

You're joking, aren't you? The service kit for a Shimano Nexus gearbox consists consists of a bowl-shaped pot with some oil in it; the idea is that your take the lid off the box and stand the box in the oil in the pot and then put the lid of the box back on. It cost £38 at retail. The tool to remove the lid was more than that. Add £18.50 for carriage and you're now up close to or sometimes more than the price of a new Nexus from a German surplus dealer. You still haven't bought any mechanical parts; just the service kit that will be required anyway if you drain the box and handle the parts to fix the mechanical.

Next problem, a consumer just about cannot get his hands on mechanical replacement parts. Even simple, external small parts, like the blocker for the Bowden cable, is not stocked by bike dealers. I found one source in the UK, Petra. Check the parts they sell. Their carriage isn't a rip and I recommend their service.

Shimano publishes excellent manuals, so in theory, until I started costing service and repairs, I could have opened those boxes and fixed them.

In practice, a Shimano Nexus box is a consumable item. If it breaks, you buy a new one, more pointedly, you buy a new wheel with the Nexus box already spoked in.

I get a lot more than 5000 miles from a cassette & two chains, and a
rear derailleur and freehub lasts many cassettes. Jockey wheels may
wear, but they're replaceable without wheel rebuilding.

Roundabout this time of the year you can buy surplus Shimano hub gear wheels built for manufacturers who didn't require them for peanuts in Germany and also in The Netherlands, though it is more difficult to deal with the Dutch as they're not so keen on international mailorder as the Germans.

Even so, a Shimano hub gearbox isn't about component replacement economy in the same way that my highly developed Rohloff installation is.

On my Shimano Nexus gearboxes, fitted with the complete Nexus groups, I was lucky to get 1600km/1000km (again, you're reading it right, there's no zero missing) out of a complete transmission drive group of crankset (crank and chainring in one unit), chain and rear sprocket. Utter crap. And that's inside an enclosed chaincase. You can see the chaincases at http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLING.html
on the Trek and Gazelle bikes.

Nothing I've read about IGHs other than a Rohloff makes me want to
invest time and money to try one. I suspect I'd kill anything other
than a Rohloff sooner than I'd expect, and be frustrated by ****
engineering.

The truth is, James, that in a way I was impressed by those Shimano gearboxes and the roller brakes, also from Shimano, they used, and still am. They're cheap and cheerful, and feel good while they work. While mean clocked out early, and there are reports of others breaking before 10,000m, plenty soldier on to 15k and 20k, at which point a Rohloff is just getting into its teenage years. But's futile to judge a Shimano Nexus or Alfine by Rohloff standards; they don't appeal to the same market and the price differential, comparing best street prices, approaches a factor of 10.

I agree that someone with your background and temperament will be "frustrated by **** engineering". But I like to see what people are marketing, and entirely different thing from engineering, and asking "HTF do they get away with it?"

And maybe I misused gearboxes intended for staid commuting for fast riding on rough lanes. And I'm a retired sportsman, rugby and polo, a 95kg masher long accustomed to breaking bigger machinery than a little Nexus HGB, which in part accounts for my expensive, but longlasting (heh-heh) attraction to agricultural-strength German vorsprung durch technik.

Andre Jute
....and those twee little Japanese cars that go fifty miles per rubber band.... -- Andre Jute in a hall absolutely stuffed with Toyota executives (who invited them?)