Truing Stand

On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 5:01:37 PM UTC-5, pH wrote:
On 2021-06-04, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/3/2021 8:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:

BTW I do most truing 'in the bike'. I only occasionally build wheels now
(when employees are 'too good' for some jobs and some customers). The
result is the same. Although a stand with good lighting can be more
convenient it's not essential.

I built my first wheel riding in a VW van during the long drive to the
airport for our first overseas bike tour. I used the inverted bike frame
as the truing stand.

Those were the days!

Did you use Jobst's book to do the lacing, Robert Wright's "Wright-built"
technique or are you just a super-genius who figured it out on his own?


I own and used the Jobst Brandt book to build my wheels.







I got loand the 'wright built' pamphlet by a coworker and used it to do the
lacing on my rims. I never used Jobst's published technique, but it look
like his way would have avoided the spoke weaving I had to do for the last
course of spokes.

The tensioning process was always tough...getting the 'hop' out.

I always took care to turn each nipple the same amount before tension began
being appreciable, but, still....

I ended up with a good result but I sure don't feel like natural.

How many spokes were your wheels? As a Clydesdale I do 40 in front and 48
in back.

pH in Aptos

On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 6:57:27 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 3:45:12 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 3:01:37 PM UTC-7, pH wrote:
On 2021-06-04, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/3/2021 8:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:

BTW I do most truing 'in the bike'. I only occasionally build wheels now
(when employees are 'too good' for some jobs and some customers). The
result is the same. Although a stand with good lighting can be more
convenient it's not essential.

I built my first wheel riding in a VW van during the long drive to the
airport for our first overseas bike tour. I used the inverted bike frame
as the truing stand.

Those were the days!

Did you use Jobst's book to do the lacing, Robert Wright's "Wright-built"
technique or are you just a super-genius who figured it out on his own?

I got loand the 'wright built' pamphlet by a coworker and used it to do the
lacing on my rims. I never used Jobst's published technique, but it look
like his way would have avoided the spoke weaving I had to do for the last
course of spokes.

The tensioning process was always tough...getting the 'hop' out.

I always took care to turn each nipple the same amount before tension began
being appreciable, but, still....

I ended up with a good result but I sure don't feel like natural.

How many spokes were your wheels? As a Clydesdale I do 40 in front and 48
in back.
I was originally shown by a bike builder in Hayward. In those day wheels were 36 and/or 32 spokes. The idea of the weaving was to keep the spokes from pinging against one another if they were done that way. Once you got the hang of it you didn't even have to look at it. You would cut the spokes the proper length and then tighten the nipples up to three threads from tight and then take a half turn on every spoke until you have them as tight as they would go, which wasn't very tight on a 36 spoke wheel. If you had a hop in the wheel you did something wrong.

You must be remarkably big if you need anything more than 36 spoke wheels.
Cut the spokes? WTF? Did you have a Phil spoke thread roller?

-- Jay Beattie.

I was confused by that comment too. I always just order the right spoke lengths, minus a couple millimeters to account for stretch. Spokes come in 2 millimeter increments I think. Sapim or Wheelsmith or DT.

On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 9:29:50 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/6/2021 10:08 PM, jbeattie wrote:

It was hard to screw-up 120mm/36 spoke wheels on SC Mod 52 or other robust rims of the era.

Apart from instruction from a friend and shop owner and the Wright pamphlet and later Jobst's book (which I bought at Cupertino Bike Shop immediately after its release), practically all my cohorts built wheels -- and we all hung out at the same shop owned by Mr. Wheel Guru, who ran twice-weekly shop rides (races) -- and half of them worked for brand-new Specialized Bicycle Components and lived and breathed bike stuff. I knew Phil Wood (his son was a friend), so that's the direction I went after probably '75/6, although I had some racing wheels with Campy hubs Anyway, wheel building was a thing back then -- as it was on this NG during Jobst's tenure. Now is wheels in a box. Things change.
And I'll bet that "wheels in a box" came about largely due to the
development of automated wheel building machines.


Long ago you could order pre built wheels from Excel and Colorado Cycling catalogs. Pick your hub (Shimano and Campagnolo were the options. Maybe Suntour too.), pick your rim, pick your type of spoke (straight, double, triple butted), gauge of spoke, number of spokes, cross. And they would send you the wheels in a box. Wheels in a box changed later on to mean the stylish Mavic and others. But originally you could get custom wheels built for yourself without much trouble.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EITEQLn8SUE

Thank God for engineers!


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 9:38:58 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:

For one-only jobs that will never make any sense compared to
a human. This is seen as well in chicken disassembly

Yeah for chicken, cow, hog production lines, humans are the automatic part. Although maybe they have added in some power saws or knives in there somewhere.



--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 6/7/2021 8:06 PM, wrote:
On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 6:57:27 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 3:45:12 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 3:01:37 PM UTC-7, pH wrote:
On 2021-06-04, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/3/2021 8:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:

BTW I do most truing 'in the bike'. I only occasionally build wheels now
(when employees are 'too good' for some jobs and some customers). The
result is the same. Although a stand with good lighting can be more
convenient it's not essential.

I built my first wheel riding in a VW van during the long drive to the
airport for our first overseas bike tour. I used the inverted bike frame
as the truing stand.

Those were the days!

Did you use Jobst's book to do the lacing, Robert Wright's "Wright-built"
technique or are you just a super-genius who figured it out on his own?

I got loand the 'wright built' pamphlet by a coworker and used it to do the
lacing on my rims. I never used Jobst's published technique, but it look
like his way would have avoided the spoke weaving I had to do for the last
course of spokes.

The tensioning process was always tough...getting the 'hop' out.

I always took care to turn each nipple the same amount before tension began
being appreciable, but, still....

I ended up with a good result but I sure don't feel like natural.

How many spokes were your wheels? As a Clydesdale I do 40 in front and 48
in back.
I was originally shown by a bike builder in Hayward. In those day wheels were 36 and/or 32 spokes. The idea of the weaving was to keep the spokes from pinging against one another if they were done that way. Once you got the hang of it you didn't even have to look at it. You would cut the spokes the proper length and then tighten the nipples up to three threads from tight and then take a half turn on every spoke until you have them as tight as they would go, which wasn't very tight on a 36 spoke wheel. If you had a hop in the wheel you did something wrong.

You must be remarkably big if you need anything more than 36 spoke wheels.
Cut the spokes? WTF? Did you have a Phil spoke thread roller?

-- Jay Beattie.

I was confused by that comment too. I always just order the right spoke lengths, minus a couple millimeters to account for stretch. Spokes come in 2 millimeter increments I think. Sapim or Wheelsmith or DT.


"right spoke lengths, minus a couple millimeters to account
for stretch"


We use stainless drawn spokes here which don't. How many
miles do you get on those pasta spokes?

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 6/7/2021 8:18 PM, wrote:
On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 9:38:58 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:

For one-only jobs that will never make any sense compared to
a human. This is seen as well in chicken disassembly

Yeah for chicken, cow, hog production lines, humans are the automatic part. Although maybe they have added in some power saws or knives in there somewhere.




Right. Chipping the marginal flesh[1] from beef bones was
mechanized years ago but carcass disassembly remains just
variable enough to resist robotics. Contrast vegetable
processing at canneries near me - almost zero hand work- no
one shucks corn or shells peas by hand. Robotics or
mechanization are very useful but cannot solve every problem.


[1] There was initially some concern for micro sized bone
chips and possible 'mad cow' contamination at one time. I
assume the process either got dialed in better, critics
decided it wasn't much of a problem or some materials found
non-human uses (hog feed? Salmon ponds? dunno)

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 2021-06-07, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 6:04:16 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/6/2021 6:01 PM, pH wrote:
On 2021-06-04, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/3/2021 8:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:

BTW I do most truing 'in the bike'. I only occasionally build wheels now
(when employees are 'too good' for some jobs and some customers). The
result is the same. Although a stand with good lighting can be more
convenient it's not essential.

I built my first wheel riding in a VW van during the long drive to the
airport for our first overseas bike tour. I used the inverted bike frame
as the truing stand.

Those were the days!

Did you use Jobst's book to do the lacing, Robert Wright's "Wright-built"
technique or are you just a super-genius who figured it out on his own?

I got loand the 'wright built' pamphlet by a coworker and used it to do the
lacing on my rims. I never used Jobst's published technique, but it look
like his way would have avoided the spoke weaving I had to do for the last
course of spokes.

The tensioning process was always tough...getting the 'hop' out.

I always took care to turn each nipple the same amount before tension began
being appreciable, but, still....

I ended up with a good result but I sure don't feel like natural.

How many spokes were your wheels? As a Clydesdale I do 40 in front and 48
in back.
This was very early in my adult cycling career, about three years after
I began riding avidly. The circumstances were unusual.

I was working in a small city that had a very unusual salvage store.
Much of the goods spread out on half an acre of tables was salvage stuff
lost or damaged by UPS, then sold very cheaply. Occasionally something
really nice appeared, such as a custom Reynolds 531 frame (by Lippy)
with a slight dent. That cost me $7, and is now the frame of my
about-town three speed. The find pertinent to this story was a
Campagnolo front hub, found just before we were to leave for our first
overseas tour in England and Scotland.

Being relatively poor at the time, we drove rather than flew the
hundreds of miles to Kennedy Airport. And being a nice guy very much in
love, I decided to give the hub to my wife, to replace the Normandy hub
in her front wheel. Our local bike shop sold me the proper spokes.

I knew how to true wheels (the junk wheels on my first "ten speed" had
taught me all about that) but not how to build them. I didn't have a
book. During the long drive, I just took my time and copied the lacing
scheme on my Raleigh Super Course. It worked fine.

Coincidentally, yesterday I saw that bike of hers for the first time in
many years. It had been passed on and passed on again, but yesterday we
happened to visit the current owner. The wheel is still just fine.

That is a lovely story. Gad, I remember Normandy hubs...nothing wrong with
all the good auld stuff.

I did the "tape the rims togetgher and xfer spokes one-at-a-time" thing for
my recumbent's front wheel after I ground the sidewalls (what *is* the right
terminology?) away from use.
Worked great. (from Jobst's book, but also common sense).

Again, lovely story...married longer than John S.? (36 years, here).


pH





It was hard to screw-up 120mm/36 spoke wheels on SC Mod 52 or other robust rims of the era.

Apart from instruction from a friend and shop owner and the Wright pamphlet and later Jobst's
book (which I bought at Cupertino Bike Shop immediately after its release), practically all my cohorts
built wheels -- and we all hung out at the same shop owned by Mr. Wheel Guru, who
ran twice-weekly shop rides (races) -- and half of them worked for brand-new Specialized Bicycle Components
and lived and breathed bike stuff. I knew Phil Wood (his son was a friend), so that's the direction
I went after probably '75/6, although I had some racing wheels with Campy hubs Anyway, wheel building
was a thing back then -- as it was on this NG during Jobst's tenure. Now is wheels in a box. Things change.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 2021-06-07, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/6/2021 10:08 PM, jbeattie wrote:

It was hard to screw-up 120mm/36 spoke wheels on SC Mod 52 or other robust rims of the era.

Apart from instruction from a friend and shop owner and the Wright pamphlet and later Jobst's book (which I bought at Cupertino Bike Shop immediately after its release), practically all my cohorts built wheels -- and we all hung out at the same shop owned by Mr. Wheel Guru, who ran twice-weekly shop rides (races) -- and half of them worked for brand-new Specialized Bicycle Components and lived and breathed bike stuff. I knew Phil Wood (his son was a friend), so that's the direction I went after probably '75/6, although I had some racing wheels with Campy hubs Anyway, wheel building was a thing back then -- as it was on this NG during Jobst's tenure. Now is wheels in a box. Things change.

And I'll bet that "wheels in a box" came about largely due to the
development of automated wheel building machines.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EITEQLn8SUE

Thank God for engineers!


Peter White of Peter White cycles is still building wheels and I'm sure our
Mr. Muzi gets to go home and lace a rim or three while watching TV once in
awhile (that's why my bike shop owning friend said he used to do).

Now I feel like taking a spare front wheel down, taking it apart and
building it, just for fun.

pH

On 6/7/2021 10:13 PM, pH wrote:
On 2021-06-07, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 6:04:16 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/6/2021 6:01 PM, pH wrote:
On 2021-06-04, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/3/2021 8:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:

BTW I do most truing 'in the bike'. I only occasionally build wheels now
(when employees are 'too good' for some jobs and some customers). The
result is the same. Although a stand with good lighting can be more
convenient it's not essential.

I built my first wheel riding in a VW van during the long drive to the
airport for our first overseas bike tour. I used the inverted bike frame
as the truing stand.

Those were the days!

Did you use Jobst's book to do the lacing, Robert Wright's "Wright-built"
technique or are you just a super-genius who figured it out on his own?

I got loand the 'wright built' pamphlet by a coworker and used it to do the
lacing on my rims. I never used Jobst's published technique, but it look
like his way would have avoided the spoke weaving I had to do for the last
course of spokes.

The tensioning process was always tough...getting the 'hop' out.

I always took care to turn each nipple the same amount before tension began
being appreciable, but, still....

I ended up with a good result but I sure don't feel like natural.

How many spokes were your wheels? As a Clydesdale I do 40 in front and 48
in back.
This was very early in my adult cycling career, about three years after
I began riding avidly. The circumstances were unusual.

I was working in a small city that had a very unusual salvage store.
Much of the goods spread out on half an acre of tables was salvage stuff
lost or damaged by UPS, then sold very cheaply. Occasionally something
really nice appeared, such as a custom Reynolds 531 frame (by Lippy)
with a slight dent. That cost me $7, and is now the frame of my
about-town three speed. The find pertinent to this story was a
Campagnolo front hub, found just before we were to leave for our first
overseas tour in England and Scotland.

Being relatively poor at the time, we drove rather than flew the
hundreds of miles to Kennedy Airport. And being a nice guy very much in
love, I decided to give the hub to my wife, to replace the Normandy hub
in her front wheel. Our local bike shop sold me the proper spokes.

I knew how to true wheels (the junk wheels on my first "ten speed" had
taught me all about that) but not how to build them. I didn't have a
book. During the long drive, I just took my time and copied the lacing
scheme on my Raleigh Super Course. It worked fine.

Coincidentally, yesterday I saw that bike of hers for the first time in
many years. It had been passed on and passed on again, but yesterday we
happened to visit the current owner. The wheel is still just fine.

That is a lovely story. Gad, I remember Normandy hubs...nothing wrong with
all the good auld stuff.

I did the "tape the rims togetgher and xfer spokes one-at-a-time" thing for
my recumbent's front wheel after I ground the sidewalls (what *is* the right
terminology?) away from use.
Worked great. (from Jobst's book, but also common sense).

Again, lovely story...married longer than John S.? (36 years, here).

Not much less than 50.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 6/7/2021 9:14 PM, wrote:
On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 9:29:50 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/6/2021 10:08 PM, jbeattie wrote:

It was hard to screw-up 120mm/36 spoke wheels on SC Mod 52 or other robust rims of the era.

Apart from instruction from a friend and shop owner and the Wright pamphlet and later Jobst's book (which I bought at Cupertino Bike Shop immediately after its release), practically all my cohorts built wheels -- and we all hung out at the same shop owned by Mr. Wheel Guru, who ran twice-weekly shop rides (races) -- and half of them worked for brand-new Specialized Bicycle Components and lived and breathed bike stuff. I knew Phil Wood (his son was a friend), so that's the direction I went after probably '75/6, although I had some racing wheels with Campy hubs Anyway, wheel building was a thing back then -- as it was on this NG during Jobst's tenure. Now is wheels in a box. Things change.
And I'll bet that "wheels in a box" came about largely due to the
development of automated wheel building machines.


Long ago you could order pre built wheels from Excel and Colorado Cycling catalogs. Pick your hub (Shimano and Campagnolo were the options. Maybe Suntour too.), pick your rim, pick your type of spoke (straight, double, triple butted), gauge of spoke, number of spokes, cross. And they would send you the wheels in a box. Wheels in a box changed later on to mean the stylish Mavic and others. But originally you could get custom wheels built for yourself without much trouble.

I was responding to Jay's phrase, which I took to mean mass produced
wheels, not custom ones.

I had two good friends who built wheels professionally for Bike Nashbar,
née Bike Warehouse. One was the engineer I consider the most competent
one I ever knew. He built his own truing stand, largely out of lumber.
He did this to help Arni out when Bike Warehouse was still pretty new.

--
- Frank Krygowski