Better design to adjust brake pads

On Sunday, August 16, 2020 at 9:36:43 PM UTC+1, Ralph Barone wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
On 8/15/2020 9:18 PM, AK wrote:
I have V-brakes and quite frankly, it is a pain to adjust them when they wear down.

It looks the same for other brake styles.

Can not someone come up with a better system?

Like adjust a nut to make the pads closer to the rim.

Andy


Great idea! Maybe you could devise some brake adjuster
which the rider could manipulate, without tools, while
riding. The world is waiting!

http://www.wigglestatic.com/product-...000&h=1000&a=7


That’s just crazy Andrew. That will never catch on.

You got that fifty percent right, Ralph. On the one hand, it isn't a crazy idea: Magura has been offering brakes that adjust from the brake lever for decades. They're the HS series of rim hydraulics, superb brakes that require no service of any kind except new brake blocks every few thousand miles; they're described by some (okay, by Chalo and me) as the world's largest hydraulic disc brakes, with the rim as the disk. On the other hand, you're right, it hasn't caught on: in a rational world, all bikes would be fitted with Magura's rim hydraulic brakes because they're more progressive than disk brakes and don't wear pads as fast as the tiny wheel-centre disks, it hasn't happened...

Andre Jute
The rational cyclist

On Monday, August 17, 2020 at 2:41:47 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, August 16, 2020 at 9:36:43 PM UTC+1, Ralph Barone wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
On 8/15/2020 9:18 PM, AK wrote:
I have V-brakes and quite frankly, it is a pain to adjust them when they wear down.

It looks the same for other brake styles.

Can not someone come up with a better system?

Like adjust a nut to make the pads closer to the rim.

Andy


Great idea! Maybe you could devise some brake adjuster
which the rider could manipulate, without tools, while
riding. The world is waiting!

http://www.wigglestatic.com/product-...000&h=1000&a=7


That’s just crazy Andrew. That will never catch on.

You got that fifty percent right, Ralph. On the one hand, it isn't a crazy idea: Magura has been offering brakes that adjust from the brake lever for decades. They're the HS series of rim hydraulics, superb brakes that require no service of any kind except new brake blocks every few thousand miles; they're described by some (okay, by Chalo and me) as the world's largest hydraulic disc brakes, with the rim as the disk. On the other hand, you're right, it hasn't caught on: in a rational world, all bikes would be fitted with Magura's rim hydraulic brakes because they're more progressive than disk brakes and don't wear pads as fast as the tiny wheel-centre disks, it hasn't happened...

What makes them any better than a pair of cable-actuated Shimano dual pivot rim brakes? Don't they require canti-bosses?

My reason for going to discs was to avoid wearing out my rims riding in rain and muck -- and for better wet weather stopping. A Magura hydro rim brake solves no problems for me.

Assuming there is a Magura set-up you can use on a bike without bosses, I doubt they work much better than a pair of Ultegra dual pivots on CF rims, which is another place where rim brakes are less than optimal. I can totally understand why they never caught on with most sport and utility riders.

Ordinary disc pads do wear to quickly, which is a whole other problem. Road discs are not perfect. They do save rims, however.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 07:15:13 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Monday, 17 August 2020 09:47:14 UTC-4, AK wrote:
On Monday, August 17, 2020 at 5:01:29 AM UTC-5, Roger Merriman wrote:
AK wrote:
I have V-brakes and quite frankly, it is a pain to adjust them when they wear down.

It looks the same for other brake styles.

Can not someone come up with a better system?

Like adjust a nut to make the pads closer to the rim.

Andy


All cable brake systems will need to be adjusted and normally have a barrel
adjuster.

V-brakes are bit fiddly, but if set up they are fine, but they have had
their day in the sun.

Disk brakes took over from V brakes from about 20 years or so ago

One of the advantages of hydraulic systems it adjusts for pad wear.

Roger Merriman

Can my rear brakes be converted to disc brakes?

If so, how expensive?

Andy

Sure you can convert to disc brakes. It involves getting a new frame and a new rear and front wheel if your existing frame does not have disc brake mounts.

Cheers

Question. Don't they make "clamp on" disc brake adapters to attach to
the frame? Of course assuming that the frame is strong enough.
Then all one would require is the disc brake hub and one could built
the new wheel.

Probably easier to add a small cable adjuster to the existing system.
https://tinyurl.com/y2ac3ghk
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 20:28:31 +0200, Tosspot
wrote:

On 17/08/2020 20:21, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, 17 August 2020 13:25:07 UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/17/2020 10:23 AM, Ralph Barone wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
On 8/17/2020 8:47 AM, AK wrote:
On Monday, August 17, 2020 at 5:01:29 AM UTC-5, Roger
Merriman wrote:
AK wrote:
I have V-brakes and quite frankly, it is a pain to adjust
them when they wear down.

It looks the same for other brake styles.

Can not someone come up with a better system?

Like adjust a nut to make the pads closer to the rim.

Andy


All cable brake systems will need to be adjusted and
normally have a barrel adjuster.

V-brakes are bit fiddly, but if set up they are fine, but
they have had their day in the sun.

Disk brakes took over from V brakes from about 20 years or
so ago

One of the advantages of hydraulic systems it adjusts for
pad wear.

Roger Merriman

Can my rear brakes be converted to disc brakes?

If so, how expensive?

Andy


Requirements include different frame, fork, wheels and a disc
brake set. As much or as little as you like.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Schwinn-2...lack/651876804



That BSO has one disc brake (!) but it's cheaper than a
decent set of hydraulic discs alone:

https://www.outsidepursuits.com/best-mtb-brakes/


But note that if you get mechanical disk brakes, you still need
to adjust them as they wear. Something like this might be a less
expensive alternative.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixe...r_Cycles_I.jpg




My fixie uses up front brake pads at a higher rate then my
other bicycles. YMMV and likely does.

p.s. Riding on the public roads fixed w/o an actual brake is a Very
Bad Idea. As always YMMV but please don't do that.

-- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1
April, 1971

It's also illegal in most areas if you ride a bicycle without a
mechanical brake of some sort.

And that is why I always carry an umbrella with me. Keeps the rain off
and stops you on a dime.

Does one simply poke the umbrella in the spokes to stop of open it and
use it as a drag chute?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Monday, August 17, 2020 at 3:26:11 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/17/2020 3:16 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
On 8/17/2020 10:23 AM, Ralph Barone wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
On 8/17/2020 8:47 AM, AK wrote:
On Monday, August 17, 2020 at 5:01:29 AM UTC-5, Roger Merriman wrote:
AK wrote:
I have V-brakes and quite frankly, it is a pain to adjust them when they wear down.

It looks the same for other brake styles.

Can not someone come up with a better system?

Like adjust a nut to make the pads closer to the rim.

Andy


All cable brake systems will need to be adjusted and normally have a barrel
adjuster.

V-brakes are bit fiddly, but if set up they are fine, but they have had
their day in the sun.

Disk brakes took over from V brakes from about 20 years or so ago

One of the advantages of hydraulic systems it adjusts for pad wear..

Roger Merriman

Can my rear brakes be converted to disc brakes?

If so, how expensive?

Andy


Requirements include different frame, fork, wheels and a
disc brake set. As much or as little as you like.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Schwinn-2...lack/651876804

That BSO has one disc brake (!) but it's cheaper than a
decent set of hydraulic discs alone:

https://www.outsidepursuits.com/best-mtb-brakes/


But note that if you get mechanical disk brakes, you still need to adjust
them as they wear. Something like this might be a less expensive
alternative.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixe...r_Cycles_I.jpg


My fixie uses up front brake pads at a higher rate then my
other bicycles. YMMV and likely does.

p.s. Riding on the public roads fixed w/o an actual brake is
a Very Bad Idea. As always YMMV but please don't do that.


Many people give advice on the internet, but there is always an implicit
responsibility on the receiver of said advice to ask themselves “Does this
advice actually make sense for me?â€

PS: I’m quite surprised that the OP actually has a bike without brake
adjusters. I thought they were ubiquitous.


We don't know that, OP was unclear.

OTOH there are new bicycles with no brake adjuster,
generally in the sub-$150 range and with sidepull or cheap
DP calipers. I don't know of any linear ('V') brake model
without an adjuster..

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

If by brake adjuster, you mean loosening the hex nut and pulling the brake cable, yes I have that.

But you may mean this.

https://imgur.com/a/DxEKTT2

On 8/17/2020 6:39 PM, AK wrote:
On Monday, August 17, 2020 at 3:26:11 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/17/2020 3:16 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
On 8/17/2020 10:23 AM, Ralph Barone wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
On 8/17/2020 8:47 AM, AK wrote:
On Monday, August 17, 2020 at 5:01:29 AM UTC-5, Roger Merriman wrote:
AK wrote:
I have V-brakes and quite frankly, it is a pain to adjust them when they wear down.

It looks the same for other brake styles.

Can not someone come up with a better system?

Like adjust a nut to make the pads closer to the rim.

Andy


All cable brake systems will need to be adjusted and normally have a barrel
adjuster.

V-brakes are bit fiddly, but if set up they are fine, but they have had
their day in the sun.

Disk brakes took over from V brakes from about 20 years or so ago

One of the advantages of hydraulic systems it adjusts for pad wear.

Roger Merriman

Can my rear brakes be converted to disc brakes?

If so, how expensive?

Andy


Requirements include different frame, fork, wheels and a
disc brake set. As much or as little as you like.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Schwinn-2...lack/651876804

That BSO has one disc brake (!) but it's cheaper than a
decent set of hydraulic discs alone:

https://www.outsidepursuits.com/best-mtb-brakes/


But note that if you get mechanical disk brakes, you still need to adjust
them as they wear. Something like this might be a less expensive
alternative.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixe...r_Cycles_I.jpg


My fixie uses up front brake pads at a higher rate then my
other bicycles. YMMV and likely does.

p.s. Riding on the public roads fixed w/o an actual brake is
a Very Bad Idea. As always YMMV but please don't do that.


Many people give advice on the internet, but there is always an implicit
responsibility on the receiver of said advice to ask themselves “Does this
advice actually make sense for me?â€

PS: I’m quite surprised that the OP actually has a bike without brake
adjusters. I thought they were ubiquitous.


We don't know that, OP was unclear.

OTOH there are new bicycles with no brake adjuster,
generally in the sub-$150 range and with sidepull or cheap
DP calipers. I don't know of any linear ('V') brake model
without an adjuster..


If by brake adjuster, you mean loosening the hex nut and pulling the brake cable, yes I have that.

But you may mean this.

https://imgur.com/a/DxEKTT2


Is that your bike? For some reason I thought you had linear
('V') brakes. The adjuster is that little whatzit at the
end of the outer casing. Oil it occasionally.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Monday, August 17, 2020 at 7:36:10 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/17/2020 6:39 PM, AK wrote:
On Monday, August 17, 2020 at 3:26:11 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/17/2020 3:16 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
On 8/17/2020 10:23 AM, Ralph Barone wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
On 8/17/2020 8:47 AM, AK wrote:
On Monday, August 17, 2020 at 5:01:29 AM UTC-5, Roger Merriman wrote:
AK wrote:
I have V-brakes and quite frankly, it is a pain to adjust them when they wear down.

It looks the same for other brake styles.

Can not someone come up with a better system?

Like adjust a nut to make the pads closer to the rim.

Andy


All cable brake systems will need to be adjusted and normally have a barrel
adjuster.

V-brakes are bit fiddly, but if set up they are fine, but they have had
their day in the sun.

Disk brakes took over from V brakes from about 20 years or so ago

One of the advantages of hydraulic systems it adjusts for pad wear.

Roger Merriman

Can my rear brakes be converted to disc brakes?

If so, how expensive?

Andy


Requirements include different frame, fork, wheels and a
disc brake set. As much or as little as you like.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Schwinn-2...lack/651876804

That BSO has one disc brake (!) but it's cheaper than a
decent set of hydraulic discs alone:

https://www.outsidepursuits.com/best-mtb-brakes/


But note that if you get mechanical disk brakes, you still need to adjust
them as they wear. Something like this might be a less expensive
alternative.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixe...r_Cycles_I.jpg


My fixie uses up front brake pads at a higher rate then my
other bicycles. YMMV and likely does.

p.s. Riding on the public roads fixed w/o an actual brake is
a Very Bad Idea. As always YMMV but please don't do that.


Many people give advice on the internet, but there is always an implicit
responsibility on the receiver of said advice to ask themselves “Does this
advice actually make sense for me?â€

PS: I’m quite surprised that the OP actually has a bike without brake
adjusters. I thought they were ubiquitous.


We don't know that, OP was unclear.

OTOH there are new bicycles with no brake adjuster,
generally in the sub-$150 range and with sidepull or cheap
DP calipers. I don't know of any linear ('V') brake model
without an adjuster..


If by brake adjuster, you mean loosening the hex nut and pulling the brake cable, yes I have that.

But you may mean this.

https://imgur.com/a/DxEKTT2


Is that your bike? For some reason I thought you had linear
('V') brakes. The adjuster is that little whatzit at the
end of the outer casing. Oil it occasionally.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

No, it is not my bike.

Andy

On Monday, August 17, 2020 at 11:34:09 PM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, August 17, 2020 at 2:41:47 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, August 16, 2020 at 9:36:43 PM UTC+1, Ralph Barone wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
On 8/15/2020 9:18 PM, AK wrote:
I have V-brakes and quite frankly, it is a pain to adjust them when they wear down.

It looks the same for other brake styles.

Can not someone come up with a better system?

Like adjust a nut to make the pads closer to the rim.

Andy


Great idea! Maybe you could devise some brake adjuster
which the rider could manipulate, without tools, while
riding. The world is waiting!

http://www.wigglestatic.com/product-...000&h=1000&a=7


That’s just crazy Andrew. That will never catch on.

You got that fifty percent right, Ralph. On the one hand, it isn't a crazy idea: Magura has been offering brakes that adjust from the brake lever for decades. They're the HS series of rim hydraulics, superb brakes that require no service of any kind except new brake blocks every few thousand miles; they're described by some (okay, by Chalo and me) as the world's largest hydraulic disc brakes, with the rim as the disk. On the other hand, you're right, it hasn't caught on: in a rational world, all bikes would be fitted with Magura's rim hydraulic brakes because they're more progressive than disk brakes and don't wear pads as fast as the tiny wheel-centre disks, it hasn't happened...

What makes them any better than a pair of cable-actuated Shimano dual pivot rim brakes?

I wouldn't know. I didn't say they're "any better than a pair of cable-actuated Shimano dual pivot rim brakes". Depends what your parameter for "better" is*. According to a fellow who used to come here, Clive George, (I think that was his name) there were always many different types of the Magura rim hydraulics, including racing versions for wishful thinkers. There still are.

*None of the brakes on my other bikes, or any of your bikes, above a certain competence level, and maybe price level too, for practical purposes stop any better than the Magura rim hydraulics or any worse. In all circumstance, with whatever brakes you have fitted, the coefficient of retardation -- the amount of braking you can expect -- will be limited by the friction between the road and the tyre. Given that other factors on the bicycle , particularly those which influence and effect weight transfer under braking -- are the same or close, the difference between brakes lies mainly in "feel", a subjective parameter.

I like the Magura rim hydraulics because because they're progressive and totally service free except for requiring new brake blocks (on my bike every 8500km or about 5000m); presumably a time will come when a new rim will be required. When I got mine, which will see me out, there were different calliper chamber volumes, so I chose the largest one to deliver the least instant pressure and by that choice achieved wonderfully progressive brakes, perfectly suitable for a distracted intellectual to slam on at the last moment and stop in time without any drama. I didn't even consider the racing version, and also passed by the sharper versions (smaller chamber for higher instant pressure) as clearly for people who wish to give the impression they're swinging dicks. Today the difference is only in the price and the availability of different trim on the brake levers. I also threw off the so-called "brake booster", the purpose of which is to stiffen the fork and allow sharper braking. My bike between the axles is stiffer than the body of a Rolls-Royce, so I didn't see the need.

Don't they require canti-bosses?

Don't all other brakes require fittings on the frame or fork? What sort of an argument is this from an adult?

My reason for going to discs was to avoid wearing out my rims riding in rain and muck -- and for better wet weather stopping. A Magura hydro rim brake solves no problems for me.

Actually, the range of brake blocks available for Magura rim hydraulics is the same as for any other kind of brake, and hydraulic assistance very likely makes the pressure you can apply higher than on mechanical rim or disk brakes. But, if you need disc brakes to preserve your rims, than that's that.. I dislike disc brakes on bicycles because it is quite difficult to make them progressive without making them weak, a factor of their small size, relative to rims.

Assuming there is a Magura set-up you can use on a bike without bosses, I doubt they work much better than a pair of Ultegra dual pivots on CF rims, which is another place where rim brakes are less than optimal. I can totally understand why they never caught on with most sport and utility riders.

You can doubt all you want, fellow, but I stop my 215 pounds plus about 70 pounds of painting gear on a downhill plus a bike that even with specially drawn Columbus tubes is fitted up with several times the weight of the roadie's trim in wider tyres and a hefty leather saddle and all kinds of heavyweight stuff, where I'm going faster than the roadie by the simple proof of passing him, and I start braking later and I'm not white about the gills, as he is when he overshoots the stop at the T junction where I'm waiting with two stopwatches running. People used to say of the Citroen SM that I kept in Europe, and the Citroen DS I drove in Australia, that I shoulda bought a Rolls instead (the SM cost more than a Rolls), because any time they drove them, they were uncomfortable with the brakes which stopped the car from very high speeds by simply resting your foot on it, not pressing -- if you were clumsy with the brake, you could frighten yourself quite ****less but I never heard of anyone who actually killed himself, which is why I didn't mind if others drove those cars, as long as they didn't expect me to come too. The Magura rim hydraulics are like that: once you get the hang of them (which consists of paying them no attention until you become accustomed to paying them no attention), you'll never want anything else ever again.

Ordinary disc pads do wear to quickly, which is a whole other problem. Road discs are not perfect. They do save rims, however.

Discs also require you to pay attention to how you brake. As I explained above, I pay no nevermind to theoretical road bike braking distances; I don't like machines that require too much of my attention or interrupt me when I'm speaking or thinking. When it is necessary, I just slam the Magura rim hydraulics on and between them and my Big Apple balloons, which for practical purposes are slicks with plenty of frictional area in contact with the road, they stop me without any drama, and in a shorter distance than any of the peloton type bikes. It's the difference between an Austin Healey Sprite and a Jensen Interceptor FF with ABS off a big Boeing jet. Once I got used to the four-wheel drive (off an F1 car by Ferguson) and ABS brakes (two decades before my Bentley Turbo had ABS... I'd throw that heavy touring car into corners in the Fens around Cambridge willy-nilly even in the rain and just stand up on the brakes under any condition; once when the air traffic controllers were on strike and my friend had to be at the Staatsoper for curtain rise of let her job go to her stand-in, I averaged over a 100mph through the midwinter snow on the passes from Rome to Vienna with the three singers in the party belting out arias to keep their minds off the chasms. The Utopia Kranich is like that, a nevermind bike, and the Magura rim hydraulic brakes make up a big part of its superiority over even the good Gazelle (disc brake) and Trek (roller brakes stronger than any discs known to me) I still have -- in the loft, three floors up.

-- Jay Beattie.

Personally, now that for the first time ever my daily bike has been the same one for more than two years, in fact over ten years for the Utopia Kranich, I wonder why people like you put up with the expensive but nasty crap that is so common in store-bought bikes. It takes only a little thought and costs very little more to specify a bike that suits you, rather than you trying to suit some thoughtless clown's extreme bike, and there are custom builders, presumably even in America, who will build you anything you desire. (Okay, I had to go as far away as Germany to get a first class bike, but maybe I just didn't explain what I wanted well enough to the braziers in England.) It's only too easy to conclude that most bicyclists are either overly impressionable or masochists.

Just in case anyone is in doubt still, the Magura Rim Hydraulic Brakes adjust on the HS33 with a thumbscrew on the brake lever while you're riding the bike. The ones I have, HS11, which I took to get the bigger chamber with less initial pressure, require a hex key applied to a recess on the brake lever for which obviously the bike has to stop, but there was no reason you couldn't swap the levers, which were also sold separately; I just never saw the point because once the brakes were set, I never touched the adjustment again until I replaced the blocks. On the modern Magura, the HS 11 and the HS33 are the same in hydraulics power if not price-wise but you can buy optional coloured covers to match your bike on the HS11. The racing version is (or was) the HS22 which is much more expensive, presumably for the bragging rights.

Andre Jute
Not running for election!

On Monday, August 17, 2020 at 7:28:34 PM UTC+1, Tosspot wrote:
On 17/08/2020 20:21, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

It's also illegal in most areas if you ride a bicycle without a
mechanical brake of some sort.

And that is why I always carry an umbrella with me. Keeps the rain off
and stops you on a dime.

I like the image... Heh-heh! Soon there will be umpteen different designs of umbrella stoppers made expressly for bicyclists, all with their unique selling point, at least for the marketeers, and each more useless than the last.

Andre Jute
Ask me about it -- I used to get my kicks on Madison Avenue.

On 17/08/2020 22:16, Ralph Barone wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
On 8/17/2020 10:23 AM, Ralph Barone wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
On 8/17/2020 8:47 AM, AK wrote:
On Monday, August 17, 2020 at 5:01:29 AM UTC-5, Roger Merriman wrote:
AK wrote:
I have V-brakes and quite frankly, it is a pain to adjust them when they wear down.

It looks the same for other brake styles.

Can not someone come up with a better system?

Like adjust a nut to make the pads closer to the rim.

Andy


All cable brake systems will need to be adjusted and normally have a barrel
adjuster.

V-brakes are bit fiddly, but if set up they are fine, but they have had
their day in the sun.

Disk brakes took over from V brakes from about 20 years or so ago

One of the advantages of hydraulic systems it adjusts for pad wear.

Roger Merriman

Can my rear brakes be converted to disc brakes?

If so, how expensive?

Andy


Requirements include different frame, fork, wheels and a
disc brake set. As much or as little as you like.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Schwinn-2...lack/651876804

That BSO has one disc brake (!) but it's cheaper than a
decent set of hydraulic discs alone:

https://www.outsidepursuits.com/best-mtb-brakes/


But note that if you get mechanical disk brakes, you still need to adjust
them as they wear. Something like this might be a less expensive
alternative.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixe...r_Cycles_I.jpg


My fixie uses up front brake pads at a higher rate then my
other bicycles. YMMV and likely does.

p.s. Riding on the public roads fixed w/o an actual brake is
a Very Bad Idea. As always YMMV but please don't do that.


Many people give advice on the internet, but there is always an implicit
responsibility on the receiver of said advice to ask themselves “Does this
advice actually make sense for me?�

PS: I’m quite surprised that the OP actually has a bike without brake
adjusters. I thought they were ubiquitous.

The picture he posted clearly showed them.