#71
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Belt drive
On 28/4/19 12:12 am, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-26 08:33, AMuzi wrote: That's true but how different to the rider from a broken chain, driveshaft, crank or pedal? Chains usually do not snap without some serious lack of maintenance or running them way past prime. Never heard of a driveshaft break except once on a heavy vehicle (bus). Belts usually snap out of the blue. Out cycling one day I came upon a Ford F150 or F250 perhaps, where the driver had come to a stop at a side road to my left. Before I rode in front, the driver revved the engine and, I assume, dumped the clutch. There was a bang and ting ting ting sound, as the broken drive shaft continued to spin while the vehicle remained practically stationary. I know of a front wheel drive vehicle that suffered a broken drive shaft. I broke a shaft in a gearbox once. It's a shaft. It broke. -- JS |
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#72
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Belt drive
On 28/04/2019 23.07, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 07:46:33 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-27 15:55, John B. wrote: On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 07:59:25 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-26 16:12, John B. wrote: On Fri, 26 Apr 2019 07:27:05 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-25 16:32, John B. wrote: On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 14:16:28 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-25 14:03, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Thursday, April 25, 2019 at 3:22:36 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-25 11:00, Roger Merriman wrote: Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-12 07:27, db wrote: My son is set on getting a belt drive for the bike he is building. What is good about them? You have to have the exact length for your bike, and if it breaks, it is very expensive to replace. So, why? Dad gave him too much money :-) Now, a shaft drive, that would be great. Imagine it would be much heavier and complicated, they have been tried and used on MTB but don’t seem to have been cracked, I think generally the extra weight/cost though a E-MTB would mitigate that? Motorcycle manufacturers have figured it out, most of all BMW. That company should also build MTB, they know how it's done. Weight doesn't always matter, especially not for many MTB riders. We just want less wear and most importanly not have to clean and lube the chain every 50 miles. It often takes the bicycle industry decades longer to figure something out. Such as decent heavy-duty rack space on FS MTB and central-battery powered lighting where, no surprise, I had to build it all myself. Beats me why one still cannot buy this: http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Muddy5.JPG It's lasted many thousand hard miles now which included heavy loads. Yeah, that bike is heavy but it never breaks down anymore. Given a choice I’d love a belt drive bike for the commute as I clock up fairly respectable distances per day which does chew though the drive chain. I'd be careful ... https://www.thelocal.se/20180524/ike...-lead-to-falls -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ Weight of an MTB doesn't matter? What a crock full of El Toro Poo Poo! Maybe weight doesn't matter in your world but it sure does to a LOT of other MTB users. I keep telling you Joerg; your best bet to get the durability that you say YOU need is to buy a small gasoline powered dirt motorcycle and convert it to pedal power. After all, weight doesn't matter to you. Within reason, of course. There are people who rather ride a bicycle that weighs 10lbs more than customary but in contrast to others they generally arrive at their destinations on time, due to a lack of breakdowns. I happen to be one of those. The only times during the last years (!) that I didn't arrive on time were when I assisted others during repairs. Because they didn't have thorn-resistant tubes et cetera. But Joerg, I ride a conventional steel frame bicycle and I haven't had a breakdown, or even something that came loose so I couldn't ride, in 20 years or more. In fact, in thinking back I can't even remember a time that my bike broke and I couldn't ride it. No flats in 20 years? I didn't say anything about flat tires but I don't judge a flat tire to be a "breakdown" or "came loose" A flat tire without any tools _is_ a breakdown. He get to hoof it out of the wilderness for then next 10-20 miles. But in all the years I've been riding a bicycle I have NEVER had a flat tire that I couldn't fix in a matter of minutes. Way back in the old "sew-up" tire days you didn't even need any tools. Fix it with your bare hands. Now try that with a Gatorskin or a Vee Rubber 700c 25mm. Yeah, it can be done but you won't be able to feel some of your fingertips for a while. I bought a pair of Gatorskin tires, oh probably 10 years ago, and contrary to their advertised proof against flats promptly had two flats in less than 5 Km of riding. I haven't used a gatorskin since. As for Vee tires, I have the feeling that they are a very cheap Thai made tire or at least I saw some for sale in a store called "Super Cheap" for something like 3 dollars each, so I don't use those either. This is also my experience of them, albeit a long time ago. I've been told that the cheap tires in Thailand all made from a rubber mix that contains a lot of carbon black, which makes them harder and they wear less and thus are very well regarded by those who can't afford to buy tires frequently. Unfortunately hard tires also "grip the road" less well and have minimal traction. The Marathon 'Tour' type tyres are remarkably hard wearing, and if you get wider ones, I at least have experience no grip problems. |
#73
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Belt drive
On 28/04/2019 23.29, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 15:01:56 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt wrote: John B. wrote: :On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 07:27:33 -0700, Joerg :wrote: :On 2019-04-26 16:20, John B. wrote: : On Fri, 26 Apr 2019 07:40:39 -0700, Joerg : wrote: : : On 2019-04-25 16:27, John B. wrote: : On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 12:22:41 -0700, Joerg : wrote: : : :[...] : : : It's lasted many thousand hard miles now which included heavy loads. : Yeah, that bike is heavy but it never breaks down anymore. : : The carbon-fiber bicycles are so popular is because they are light :-) : : I doubt that marketing a bike because it is heavier than all the rest : would be a real smart marketing move :-) : : : No, it has to be marketed as sturdier than the others. That gets : customers. Why do you think heavy SUVs sell so well in some areas? : : The reason that USV's were invented was to circumvent U.S. : regulations about fuel economy (if I remember correctly). By building : a vehicle on a truck chassis and classifying it as a truck the fuel : consumption limits for automobiles didn't apply. : : :That sounds like fake news. My SUV is classified as a passenger vehicle, :else it would require a different kind of license plate like the pickup :truck of a neighbor does. He also has to pay more tax on it. :No it isn't. I was alive and well when the SUV's were "invented" and :it was common knowledge then. the first vehicle stated to be a SYV :seems to have been the International Harvester Travelall in 1956 credited as being the first full-size SUV). Land-Rover were selling long wheelbase models with station wagon bodies before that. Several companies built things that could have been called SUV's but they weren't. The first "SUV's" were invented - a pickup frame and running gear with a car body - specifically to evade U.S. regulations about fuel consumption. Similar thing was true in Norway for a while where vans incurred less tax. Definition of a van? No rear windows. So a cottage industry sprung up with high tech black sticky tape to get what was a car in any way you looked at it, classified as a van. Didn't last long, you pays your taxes one way or another... |
#74
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Belt drive
There's a remarkable amount of misinformation being thrown about here.
The Land Rover long wheelbase closed model with the little curved windows above the doors was not a relative of a modern SUV; it lacked the power and the sophistication and comfort. The modern SUV originated in the LM002 fast desert car Lamborghini built around their V12 engine for an Arab army. They did not call it an SUV but a "personnel carrier". They sold a few to private individuals to recoup their design and development costs. Andre Jute Meanwhile back at the monkey farm |
#75
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Belt drive
John B. wrote:
On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 19:42:11 -0400, Joy Beeson wrote: On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 15:15:48 -0700, John B. wrote: Good Lord! You say that you are riding a bicycle, not on some sort of odyssey where one needs to carry provisions. Just eat, than ride, than eat when you get home again. I used to do 4 to 6 hour rides without stopping for lunch. You obviously can't do this on tea and toast but a good breakfast should see you through to lunch. Or at least it used to back in the day when farmers actually worked all day :-) I have to be fed every four hours. It was worse when I weighed a hundred and twenty on a frame that now carries a hundred and sixty pounds and a lot less muscle -- I had to keep a hard candy in my mouth most of the time that I was riding, or I'd feel like a puppet with cut strings when I got off the bike at home. Riding 4-6 hours at any sort of pace with no nourishment is a recipe for bonking for most people. I’m too lazy to prepare dried fruits and stuff so I take a cliff bar and and energy shots. Never needed a Swiss Army knife with a can opener though. Don’t carry cans. Even when I used to tour I used dried meals that were pretty decent but light weight. Really? I ask as my wife (75 years, 5'4", ~65 kg.) eats two meals a day and seems to get along pretty well. But she is a Buddhist and one of the Buddhists beliefs is that gluttony is a sin :-) Admirable. But not really relevant if she’s not cycling any distance. -- cheers, John B. Riding 4-6 hours at any sort of pace with no nourishment is a recipe for bonking for most people. -- duane |
#76
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Belt drive
On Monday, April 29, 2019 at 2:26:15 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Saturday, April 27, 2019 at 9:12:38 AM UTC-5, Joerg wrote: Chains usually do not snap without some serious lack of maintenance or running them way past prime. Never heard of a driveshaft break except once on a heavy vehicle (bus). Belts usually snap out of the blue. I've been on two rides where bicycle chains broke. One was mine. Hit a small bump/curb on the trail when crossing a street and the chain jumped off its cogs/pulleys/rings and got lodged somehow and it broke when I started pedaling again. Used the chain tool to remove the broken link and put in one of the quick links to reconnect everything. Other time was on a group ride and one of the riders broke his chain. I used my chain tool to remove the broken link and gave him my quick link to put everything back together.. Took a few minutes on the side of the road to get everything working again. But it was all resolved successfully. So people who think chains don't break on rides are living in some make believe fantasy land. I broke one on a mountain bike ride when I missed a sudden shift to the granny. My wife cracked one quick link a couple years ago. I remember one club ride where someone broke a chain. So I can't say chains don't break. But I can say that those are the only incidents I remember since 1972, when I started adult riding. That includes many hundreds of club rides with anywhere from three to a couple dozen people. That includes my decades of running, then sagging a fair-sized century ride.. (We had up to 600 riders.) So I'm talking about 3 chains in hundreds of thousands of rider miles, I'm sure. It's not a common event. - Frank Krygowski |
#77
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Belt drive
On 2019-04-28 15:07, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 07:46:33 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-27 15:55, John B. wrote: On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 07:59:25 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-26 16:12, John B. wrote: On Fri, 26 Apr 2019 07:27:05 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-25 16:32, John B. wrote: On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 14:16:28 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-25 14:03, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Thursday, April 25, 2019 at 3:22:36 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-25 11:00, Roger Merriman wrote: Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-12 07:27, db wrote: My son is set on getting a belt drive for the bike he is building. What is good about them? You have to have the exact length for your bike, and if it breaks, it is very expensive to replace. So, why? Dad gave him too much money :-) Now, a shaft drive, that would be great. Imagine it would be much heavier and complicated, they have been tried and used on MTB but don’t seem to have been cracked, I think generally the extra weight/cost though a E-MTB would mitigate that? Motorcycle manufacturers have figured it out, most of all BMW. That company should also build MTB, they know how it's done. Weight doesn't always matter, especially not for many MTB riders. We just want less wear and most importanly not have to clean and lube the chain every 50 miles. It often takes the bicycle industry decades longer to figure something out. Such as decent heavy-duty rack space on FS MTB and central-battery powered lighting where, no surprise, I had to build it all myself. Beats me why one still cannot buy this: http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Muddy5.JPG It's lasted many thousand hard miles now which included heavy loads. Yeah, that bike is heavy but it never breaks down anymore. Given a choice I’d love a belt drive bike for the commute as I clock up fairly respectable distances per day which does chew though the drive chain. I'd be careful ... https://www.thelocal.se/20180524/ike...-lead-to-falls -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ Weight of an MTB doesn't matter? What a crock full of El Toro Poo Poo! Maybe weight doesn't matter in your world but it sure does to a LOT of other MTB users. I keep telling you Joerg; your best bet to get the durability that you say YOU need is to buy a small gasoline powered dirt motorcycle and convert it to pedal power. After all, weight doesn't matter to you. Within reason, of course. There are people who rather ride a bicycle that weighs 10lbs more than customary but in contrast to others they generally arrive at their destinations on time, due to a lack of breakdowns. I happen to be one of those. The only times during the last years (!) that I didn't arrive on time were when I assisted others during repairs. Because they didn't have thorn-resistant tubes et cetera. But Joerg, I ride a conventional steel frame bicycle and I haven't had a breakdown, or even something that came loose so I couldn't ride, in 20 years or more. In fact, in thinking back I can't even remember a time that my bike broke and I couldn't ride it. No flats in 20 years? I didn't say anything about flat tires but I don't judge a flat tire to be a "breakdown" or "came loose" A flat tire without any tools _is_ a breakdown. He get to hoof it out of the wilderness for then next 10-20 miles. But in all the years I've been riding a bicycle I have NEVER had a flat tire that I couldn't fix in a matter of minutes. Way back in the old "sew-up" tire days you didn't even need any tools. Fix it with your bare hands. Now try that with a Gatorskin or a Vee Rubber 700c 25mm. Yeah, it can be done but you won't be able to feel some of your fingertips for a while. I bought a pair of Gatorskin tires, oh probably 10 years ago, and contrary to their advertised proof against flats promptly had two flats in less than 5 Km of riding. I haven't used a gatorskin since. I never use them anymore either. I found them a bit undersized, a bear to get on. The running surface is sturdy and no flats there. Also, one of them made it to a record 2500mi while no others ever exceeded 2000mi by much on the rear. However, all other Gatorskins I had failed prematurely in their sidewalls and that's what makes them unacceptable to me. As for Vee tires, I have the feeling that they are a very cheap Thai made tire or at least I saw some for sale in a store called "Super Cheap" for something like 3 dollars each, so I don't use those either. Just because something is cheap does not mean it is a bad product. I've been told that the cheap tires in Thailand all made from a rubber mix that contains a lot of carbon black, which makes them harder and they wear less and thus are very well regarded by those who can't afford to buy tires frequently. Unfortunately hard tires also "grip the road" less well and have minimal traction. I do not need Tour de France level cornering performance and found them to be quite adequate for riding. Especially the MTB tires because there durability and sturdiness counts a lot more than sqeezing the last tenth of an mph out of a ride. On both the road bike and the MTB I want beefy sidewalls and so far tires made in Thailand gave me that, plus a decent number of miles in terms of wear. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#78
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Belt drive
On 2019-04-28 15:19, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 09:51:42 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-28 08:58, AMuzi wrote: On 4/28/2019 9:51 AM, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-27 15:51, John B. wrote: On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 07:54:56 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-26 16:24, Roger Merriman wrote: Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-25 15:48, Roger Merriman wrote: Joerg wrote: [...] It often takes the bicycle industry decades longer to figure something out. Such as decent heavy-duty rack space on FS MTB and central-battery powered lighting where, no surprise, I had to build it all myself. Beats me why one still cannot buy this: http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Muddy5.JPG Probably because if your using the bike differently to others, my commute bike though a hardtail is closer to that set up with panniers and a barbag as I found the weight on the rear effected the handling though with the weight spread even fully Laden the bike can be some fun in the woods if one wants. But for the Nice MTB I don’t need to take so much gear and as a leisure rather than transport it’s a much nicer ride unladen. Even during fun rides I carry a full tool kit, a big lock, some spare parts and most of all water. The water alone can be north of a gallon in summer because many MTB trails have no opportunity to refill (safely). How often or likely is a full tool kit needed? Personally I do take some Allen keys but can’t remember the last time they where needed. You could have asked the guy whose shifter cable snapped and the limit screws had Allen heads so were not adjustable via Swiss Army knife. Err... the five Allan wrenches that I carry allow me to tighten or loosen every threaded fastener on the bike and weigh considerably less than a "Swiss Army Knife". ... If you have the right size among them. I like to have it all. Now in the shape of a Crankbrothers M19 tool which ... drum roll ... even contains a chain breaker. https://www.crankbrothers.com/products/m19 Plus a Swiss Army knife. Always. And a first aid kit. And a lock. And ... ... But of course I can't fight off a raging mountain lion with my Allan wrench.... Or a rattlesnake. The other shortcoming of Allen wrenches is that they do not have a bottle opener or corkscrew. They also lack a can opener, for example, if you like to have anchovies on your sandwich. You can't foresee every potential hazard. Ride with a snake bite kit, Narcan, Cipro, a pistol, flares, iodine tablets? Sheesh I don't. I know I should have added a smiley. ... As the great sage Willie Dixon wrote about a $50 bill, "Grant will get you out of whatever you're in". Traveling light works for me, YMMV. That part of my baggage is for beer. Strictly beer. And maybe a pretzel with Obatzda or at least some melted cheese. So you are a lush that can't function for even a short time without a drink? Another one of your premature conclusions. The last ride with beer was 45mi at an average speed of 15mph, running average more like 17mph. Is that your definition of a lush? Having a beer with the guys is part of a fun, a social event. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#79
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Belt drive
On 2019-04-29 04:56, Duane wrote:
John B. wrote: On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 19:42:11 -0400, Joy Beeson wrote: On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 15:15:48 -0700, John B. wrote: Good Lord! You say that you are riding a bicycle, not on some sort of odyssey where one needs to carry provisions. Just eat, than ride, than eat when you get home again. I used to do 4 to 6 hour rides without stopping for lunch. You obviously can't do this on tea and toast but a good breakfast should see you through to lunch. Or at least it used to back in the day when farmers actually worked all day :-) I have to be fed every four hours. It was worse when I weighed a hundred and twenty on a frame that now carries a hundred and sixty pounds and a lot less muscle -- I had to keep a hard candy in my mouth most of the time that I was riding, or I'd feel like a puppet with cut strings when I got off the bike at home. Riding 4-6 hours at any sort of pace with no nourishment is a recipe for bonking for most people. ... Exactly. A bonk is no fun especially if you need to be back by a certain time and your body refuses to deliver the Watts required for that. BTDT and to make matters worse the last 15mi were in the hills. Same for riding 4-6h on a sunny 105F day with no more than a couple of water bottles and no chance of replenishing anywhere. ... I’m too lazy to prepare dried fruits and stuff so I take a cliff bar and and energy shots. I carry a sandwich from home-baked bread prepared by my sweetheart. Other riders often have to suppress a drool when they see that. Never needed a Swiss Army knife with a can opener though. The standard ones all have that, it is required for any army purpose. It's shown he https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNGtJ5a42Pk ... Don’t carry cans. Even when I used to tour I used dried meals that were pretty decent but light weight. It's just that the regular knives have it and opening a small (lightweight) can of anchovies does add a nice gourmet touch to lunch during a ride. I haven't yet carried white table linen but my wife and I once did during a camping trip in a National Park and that turned some heads :-) Really? I ask as my wife (75 years, 5'4", ~65 kg.) eats two meals a day and seems to get along pretty well. But she is a Buddhist and one of the Buddhists beliefs is that gluttony is a sin :-) Admirable. But not really relevant if she’s not cycling any distance. Especially if cycling hard, a few hours at elevated heart rate. That needs fuel no matter what. Regarding gluttony most of us do sin though and, full confession, that includes me. I could and should drop another 20lbs. That's in the works. At older age it is a fine line. During a recent MTB ride where I ate only one lunch sandwich instead of the two like in the olden days I started feeling a bonk coming up during the last 5mi. Slowed down a bit, got home, but almost had to throw up. So that was too close. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#80
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Belt drive
On 2019-04-28 13:47, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/28/2019 3:12 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Saturday, April 27, 2019 at 7:12:38 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-26 08:33, AMuzi wrote: On 4/26/2019 9:44 AM, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-25 16:23, John B. wrote: On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 18:00:49 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman wrote: [...] Given a choice I’d love a belt drive bike for the commute as I clock up fairly respectable distances per day which does chew though the drive chain. See: https://momentummag.com/commuter-bik...-carbon-drive/ https://www.veercycle.com/ or perhaps even better see https://www.cyclingabout.com/belt-dr...manufacturers/ I wouldn't want a belt drive. If that belt snaps it generally does so without warning and then it can be a nasty crash. That's true but how different to the rider from a broken chain, driveshaft, crank or pedal? Chains usually do not snap without some serious lack of maintenance or running them way past prime. Never heard of a driveshaft break except once on a heavy vehicle (bus). Belts usually snap out of the blue. As for cranks a friend of mine had an expensive Campagnolo crank break and it was clearly a manufacturing defect but they refused to even do a warranty exchange. He landed towards the middle of the road but luckily no cars came along. I've broken four or five Campy NR cranks, two or three Shimano Ultegra cranks, an Ofmega track crank, an old Stronglight 93. I had two CF cranks with pedal eyes that cracked and separated from the CF layup (SRAM Red and FSA). I bent first generation Dura Ace/Look pedal spindle, snapped a Ti ER platform pedal spindle, snapped a spindle on a Look pedal. I broke chains, but usually because I had been sloppy reinstalling a pin or because a shift side-loaded a quick link. Conventional drive trains can and do break. I've scootered home or to the nearest bike shop or hitch-hiked (broken too-light-for-touring 5sp chain in the middle of nowhere Washington) too many times. BTW, none of those failures landed me on the road, even though all of the crank failures were during out of the saddle efforts. -- Jay Beattie. http://www.yellowjersey.org/jayscranks.html Yikes! And here people are saying that I am the buy breaking bike parts. I never managed to break a crank yet I am what many cyclists probably would consider a clyde and also often ride with cargo in hilly terrain. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
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