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Salzburg + southeast Germany



 
 
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  #1  
Old September 23rd 06, 03:23 AM posted to rec.bicycles.rides
Ken Roberts
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Posts: 241
Default Salzburg + southeast Germany

Sharon and I finally got to try out riding in Austria and Germany, and we
were very impressed. I put some photos up at
http://www.roberts-1.com/t/b06/a/k
What struck us:
* incredibly organized routes and trailways for bicycling.
* more people out riding than anywhere we've been so far.
* high quality of the riding + scenery off the main river routes.
* high density of quiet roads to explore with freedom.
* new long distance cycle-touring routes that do not follow the rivers.

What we found was lots of pretty farms with flowers and horses and cows,
with mountains with pointy peaks as a background, variety of hills, some
steep but most moderate, seemed like most of the climbs were led to nice
views and/or fun downhills. Some lakes, lots of pretty villages with those
funny-round-ish church steeples and bakeries. Roads mostly good-quality
asphalt and sufficiently wide for the amount of vehicle traffic.

We had been hesitant to go there because the reports we'd seen were about
trailways along the major rivers like the Donau, Inn, Salzach -- and that's
not our style. Instead we did our usual kind of riding like home in the
Hudson valley, exploring out on the roads in the hills and valleys and
villages of pretty farm country and finishing each day back where we
started. Lots of fun for us, and we saw lots of local riders doing the same
kind of thing.

We stayed in a hotel near on the outskirts of Salzburg. A couple of days we
rode from our hotel, a couple of other days we put the bicycle in our rental
car to start somewhere else (in the Salzkammergut lakes and in the Czech
republic). We started out planning our bicycling loops by choosing roads
marked scenic green on our Michelin map which sorta took us to some
objective that sounded interesting like a lake or a town -- so the first
afternoon we picked the Obertrumer See, and another day we picked the
Wagingersee.

We soon discovered that the non-river areas were full of signed bicycle
routes. Then on our way to the Wagingersee we stopped at a bookstore in
Traunstein and they prominently displayed detailed bicycling maps -- usually
two competing maps for any nearby region we could think of -- and that's not
counting the computer CDs we could have bought. Actually trying to follow
all those maps and signs was more entertaining. We eventually figured out
that if we followed road signs naming villages we could find on our map,
then at least we'd have a good clue where we were.

other things:
* long distance cycle-tourism: Two non-river routes which we happened to
find ourselves on sections of -- which seemed nice we Mozart radweg
(wanders around the Chiemgau area of Germany and in Austria within 150km of
Salzburg) and Bodensee-to-Koenigssee radweg (from Lake Constance to
Berchtesgaden) -- both have obvious websites.
* Salzkammergut lakes were indeed pretty, and despite being surrounded by
serious hills, much of the riding was gentle. We found some quiet pretty
roads following a bicycle route with the romantic designation "R2".
* the lengths to which Salzkammergut goes to be bicycle-friendly are
amazing: a little bicycle ferry to make it more convenient to visit St
Wolfgang, a separate bicycle tunnel (with view areas) next to the car
tunnel. I do not know how other bicycling destinations intend to compete.
* a large percentage of the off-road bicycle trails which do not follow
rivers are next to vehicle roads. For my own bicycling I'd have been happy
if they'd just used the same amount of space to make a wider roadway -- but
if having a separated path gets lots more people out bicycling, I guess it
must be good.
* we were glad to find some nice bicycle paths in the city of Salzburg
itself.
* the number of people we saw out bicycling on weekdays was amazing. I don't
know where people got the idea that Italy was a big bicycling country
compared with this, and it seemed like clearly more riders than most places
I've been in France.

Ken

P.S. We also spent a couple of days doing the same style of riding far west
near the Bodensee and St Gallen (Switzerland + Germany around Lake
Constance). Most of the same observations apply, except that the mountain
peaks weren't as close. Lots more fun + pretty bicycling-friendly terrain to
be explored -- except next time we ride around the west end of the Bodensee
from Konstanz to Meersburg, we'll choose a non-weekend day so we won't have
to deal with so much bicycling traffic.



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  #2  
Old September 23rd 06, 08:23 AM posted to rec.bicycles.rides
[email protected]
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Posts: 51
Default Salzburg + southeast Germany


Ken Roberts wrote:

* the number of people we saw out bicycling on weekdays was amazing. I don't
know where people got the idea that Italy was a big bicycling country
compared with this,


I don't know either.
As a matter of fact in Italy it is usually quite hard to find a
reasonable way to bike from one place to another It takes a lot of
experience and ingenuity in map reading, if not luck.
Road signs are never put up for riders' benefit; tunnels are unlit or
poorly so and detours simply forgotten about, if not just blocked off;
trains that let you take a bike on are becoming rarer and rarer on most
important lines; bicycle paths are put up to hit the headlines on the
newspapers, for political reasons in fact: they are just a joke.
Beware!

Sergio
Pisa

  #4  
Old September 25th 06, 01:25 PM posted to rec.bicycles.rides
Ken Roberts
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Posts: 241
Default Salzburg + southeast Germany

R Brickston wrote
Next Euro trip, GPS is at the top of the packing list.


I have not found navigation in Europe harder than in USA, and in one way
easier -- based on riding so far in France, Italy, Switzerland, Austria,
Germany, Spain, and a day in the Czech republic.

The key difference I find is that road signs in USA tend to be based on the
_road_ -- its name or number. Road signs in Europe tend to be based on the
_place_ or places the road is going toward -- though some areas, especially
France, are adding lots of road numbers. Navigation by either system can
break down if signs are missing or misleading, or if the name on the sign
doesn't agree with your out-of-date or inaccurate map.

Advantage of the European approach is that if the name of the place you want
to get to has been selected to appear on the road signs, you can mostly just
keep following that place name thru several intersections and turns to get
to where you're going, not worry about changes in road names.

Most of the time in Europe, Sharon and I have some 1:200000 map, and we find
that if we stick to roads shown and places named on that scale of map (which
does not show all the little roads), we don't have much problem with
navigation and we find pretty + interesting riding (and for us this works in
Italy just as well as in other countries).

The tricky part comes when we see some interesting little road or bike route
sign that lures us onto the smaller roads, and then things don't look like
we expected -- especially if it's getting late in the day or the weather is
turning bad.

So I have not used GPS for navigation in Europe, and have not thought I
needed it. I briefly tried GPS in USA, but found it more of hassle than it
was worth, so now I'm back to maps and road signs for both.

Ken


  #5  
Old September 25th 06, 03:41 PM posted to rec.bicycles.rides
[email protected]
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Posts: 51
Default Salzburg + southeast Germany


Ken Roberts wrote:
I have not found navigation in Europe harder than in USA, and in one way
easier -- based on riding so far in France, Italy, Switzerland, Austria,
Germany, Spain, and a day in the Czech republic.


Europe is rather varied, I reckon.
Let me talk Italy.
Identification numbers of the roads are not always easy, nor possible,
to spot.
You invariable have to rely on signs telling destination towns: these
are always there.
Which towns in that direction is up to the Authority that put up the
signs; so often they are simply stupid, and they can be quite
misleading.
More often than not, when a new road has been opened to avoid through
traffic, you simply cannot identify the most direct road, usually the
old road, that you want to stay on. So, if you follow the signs, you
might be taken on a long detour and, in some cases, to the entrance of
a tunnel that you are not allowed to enter, and in fact you would not
want to challange.
In short, you often simply must ignore signs put up for motorists; nor
are there so many of them for bike riders.

Sergio
Pisa

  #6  
Old September 25th 06, 11:37 PM posted to rec.bicycles.rides
Ken Roberts
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Posts: 241
Default Salzburg + southeast Germany

Sergio wrote
Let me talk about Italy


I do not remember navigating in Italy to be significantly harder or easier
than other European countries or the United States -- and I've cycled and
skated on roads in lots of places around Italy -- though surely not as many
places and as many days as Sergio.

So maybe I've just been lucky. Or maybe since I'm just a visitor, I don't
attempt as sophisticated routes and difficult goals as Sergio. Or maybe
since I'm from USA, I don't expect much support for bicyclists or
road-skaters. Anyway I sure hope I'll get the chance to go to Italy for more
bicycle touring.

I do bring one special piece of equipment for safer + better cycling in
Europe:
GSM mobile phone
with SIM card(s) that works in the countries I'm visiting.

Ken



  #7  
Old September 26th 06, 12:52 AM posted to rec.bicycles.rides
[email protected]
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Posts: 3,751
Default Salzburg + southeast Germany

Ken Roberts writes:

Let me talk about Italy


I do not remember navigating in Italy to be significantly harder or
easier than other European countries or the United States -- and
I've cycled and skated on roads in lots of places around Italy --
though surely not as many places and as many days as Sergio.


Typically in south Tirol between Merano and Bolzano, roundabouts have
been built at many road junctions with signs that try to direct people
to their toll autostrada with no alternative sign for the conventional
highway. I've learned to follow my nose in those area and not the
signs.

In addition, a destination at one road junction often has no distance
given and is not present on the sign at the next road junction. This
was once better and may again get better as enough complaints are
registered.

So maybe I've just been lucky. Or maybe since I'm just a visitor, I
don't attempt as sophisticated routes and difficult goals as Sergio.
Or maybe since I'm from USA, I don't expect much support for
bicyclists or road-skaters. Anyway I sure hope I'll get the chance
to go to Italy for more bicycle touring.


The route I described is not complex and was once easily understood.

I do bring one special piece of equipment for safer + better cycling
in Europe:


GSM mobile phone with SIM card(s) that works in the countries I'm
visiting.


You can do that with Cingular, for instance, the expanded service
costs $5.60/mo and works like a charm. You can enter phone numbers
into your directory with the international and country area code and
they will work everywhere. I had no problem telephoning from Praha or
Slovenia, tho the USA, local calls, and to my riding companion who
also had international service.

Jobst Brandt
  #8  
Old September 26th 06, 02:17 AM posted to rec.bicycles.rides
R Brickston
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Posts: 1,582
Default Salzburg + southeast Germany

On 25 Sep 2006 23:52:47 GMT, wrote:

Ken Roberts writes:

Let me talk about Italy


I do not remember navigating in Italy to be significantly harder or
easier than other European countries or the United States -- and
I've cycled and skated on roads in lots of places around Italy --
though surely not as many places and as many days as Sergio.


Typically in south Tirol between Merano and Bolzano, roundabouts have
been built at many road junctions with signs that try to direct people
to their toll autostrada with no alternative sign for the conventional
highway. I've learned to follow my nose in those area and not the
signs.

In addition, a destination at one road junction often has no distance
given and is not present on the sign at the next road junction. This
was once better and may again get better as enough complaints are
registered.

So maybe I've just been lucky. Or maybe since I'm just a visitor, I
don't attempt as sophisticated routes and difficult goals as Sergio.
Or maybe since I'm from USA, I don't expect much support for
bicyclists or road-skaters. Anyway I sure hope I'll get the chance
to go to Italy for more bicycle touring.


The route I described is not complex and was once easily understood.

I do bring one special piece of equipment for safer + better cycling
in Europe:


GSM mobile phone with SIM card(s) that works in the countries I'm
visiting.


You can do that with Cingular, for instance, the expanded service
costs $5.60/mo and works like a charm. You can enter phone numbers
into your directory with the international and country area code and
they will work everywhere. I had no problem telephoning from Praha or
Slovenia, tho the USA, local calls, and to my riding companion who
also had international service.

Jobst Brandt


Unless Cingular has significantly dropped their international roaming
rates, it is cheaper to buy the SIM card and use an unlocked GSM
phone.
  #9  
Old September 26th 06, 07:00 AM posted to rec.bicycles.rides
Kenny
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Posts: 206
Default Salzburg + southeast Germany


Ken Roberts wrote:

I do not remember navigating in Italy to be significantly harder or easier
than other European countries or the United States -- and I've cycled and
skated on roads in lots of places around Italy -- though surely not as many
places and as many days as Sergio.

So maybe I've just been lucky. Or maybe since I'm just a visitor, I don't
attempt as sophisticated routes and difficult goals as Sergio. Or maybe
since I'm from USA, I don't expect much support for bicyclists or
road-skaters. Anyway I sure hope I'll get the chance to go to Italy for more
bicycle touring.

I do bring one special piece of equipment for safer + better cycling in
Europe:
GSM mobile phone
with SIM card(s) that works in the countries I'm visiting.

Ken


I also didn't have any problem finding my way in northern Italy. Near
the end of my two week bike tour of northern Italy, I ride into Trento
and from Trento I put my bike and myself on the train to Milan. At
Milan central station I had intended to ride to Milan international
airport. Couldn't do it. I don't think it's possible. The roads are too
maze-like. I ended up putting my bike in a taxi .

  #10  
Old September 26th 06, 09:35 AM posted to rec.bicycles.rides
[email protected]
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Posts: 51
Default Salzburg + southeast Germany


wrote:
Ken Roberts writes:
Let me talk about Italy

I do not remember navigating in Italy to be significantly harder or
easier than other European countries or the United States

Typically in south Tirol between Merano and Bolzano,


I just won't annoy you with the many examples I could recounter. A few
will suffice, though.
Between Merano and Bolzano if you follow plainly the signs you will
detour so many little villages and find yoursef into unnecessary
tunnels.
I have had problemsf finding my way out of Bolzano heading to Lana
d'Adige.
Going back to downtown Milano from near Lecco, and following the most
obvious signs, I found myself on a Superstrada, where bikes are not
allowed.
Nevertheless, I have biked from downtown Milano almost into any
direction successfully when navigating by feeling. However I got lost
when I tried to stay on, marked!, bike paths going through the much
advertised Parco del Ticino. I gave up and rode down to Magenta to hit
the SS del Sempione.

But Italy is not at all the only bad example. Why is it that, both
times I was there in recent years, I felt forced onto the fast divided
highway to descend from Chamonix to Saint Gervais?
One system I particularly appreciated was the one in Hungary, Those
roads bear a number and how many digits tell you the category of the
road.

Cheers

Sergio
Pisa

 




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