"Pump Peg" Still Usefull?

landotter wrote:
On Jun 6, 1:09 pm, Lou Holtman wrote:
landotter wrote:
On Jun 6, 1:47 am, "Lou Holtman" wrote:
"Colin Campbell" wrote in message
...
Grow up and use C02 or, better yet, convert your bike into a boat
anchor and take up shuffleboard.
Exactly backward reasoning, in my opinion.
Why would anyone who rides a bike (it's pretty good exercise, and uses a
lot of calories, I've heard) want or need to use a CO2 cartridge system?
With a pump, you get to use more of your own energy to compress air to
fill your tire. With a CO2 cartridge, you are using energy that was
undoubtedly produced by burning hydrocarbons.
CO2 may be faster, but there's a big price for that. If you like paying
it, go ahead. But "real cyclists" are out there conserving the world's
energy resources by using their own energy, and as a reward, they get to
eat more goodies!
When I visit my LBS I always look at the frames waiting for parts to build
them up in their display cabinet (they only do build ups). One day I am
admiring a custom made titanium Seven. 'Very nice welds' I said to him. He
looked over his glasses behind his desk and said 'we are sending it back'.
'Why?' I asked. 'Those American morons welded a pumppeg on', he replied.
'So?' I asked. 'We ordered a custom frame for the customer and he didn't
want that little clit, so we sending it back so they solve that problem' he
said.
'How long did you wait for that frame?', since we live in the Netherlands .
'Three months'.
'Isn't it a long time to wait maybe another three months?'
'That doesn't matter, custom, is custom and the customer is paying for
that'.
Three weeks later I was admiring a build up Seven with no pumppeg....
Hé, how about that commitment? I like those guys.
Commitment? Ten minutes with a Dremel cut off disc and a buffing
attachment and that clit's gone. Sounds like a really crap shop to me--
let me guess, they probably don't know how to build a wheel from
scratch either?
Who allows even a very competent LBS dremel on a new multi thousand euro
custom Ti Seven frame?

That's pretty much what Seven will do and send it back to you. Check
out the thread from a few weeks ago where Andy Muzi needed semi-
horizontal rear dropouts on a mixte Rivendell frame. Did he waste the
customer's time and send it back to Rivendell? No! Yellow Jersey,
unlike the Dutch shop you mentioned, is competent--he brazed in some
new drops himself, color matched the paint, sprayed the drops to
match, and got the customer out the door in a reasonable amount of
time. Sending a frame back stateside to have a pump peg removed??
You've got to be joking--did Seven claim that it was anchored with
special Seven materials only removable at their factory??

Well no way I would let Andy braze, grind or spray paint on a brand new
frame. I would wait another three weeks, like this customer. Maybe we
are more patient in The Old World.


You must have low quality/aesthetic standards.

No, looks like you bought into the Seven marketing hype. You use a
cutoff disc, grind clean, and finish the spot to whatever level of
buff that particular ti finish has. There's nothing magical about a
Seven frame other than their glossy brochures.

It wasn't my frame so I'm not bought into the Seven marketing hype. The
welds are beautiful though but their frames are to expensive for what
they offer.


And boy, you are wrong about the wheels they build.


Perhaps--but if they need to send a frame overseas to remove a pump
peg--they're not a full service shop.

Boy you are wrong again, but lets leave it here. It was just an anecdote

Lou

"Colin Campbell" wrote in message
Grow up and use C02 or, better yet, convert your bike into a boat
anchor and take up shuffleboard.
Exactly backward reasoning, in my opinion.
Why would anyone who rides a bike (it's pretty good exercise, and
uses a
lot of calories, I've heard) want or need to use a CO2 cartridge
system?
With a pump, you get to use more of your own energy to compress air to
fill your tire. With a CO2 cartridge, you are using energy that was
undoubtedly produced by burning hydrocarbons.
CO2 may be faster, but there's a big price for that. If you like
paying
it, go ahead. But "real cyclists" are out there conserving the world's
energy resources by using their own energy, and as a reward, they
get to
eat more goodies!

"Lou Holtman" wrote:
When I visit my LBS I always look at the frames waiting for parts to
build
them up in their display cabinet (they only do build ups). One day I am
admiring a custom made titanium Seven. 'Very nice welds' I said to
him. He
looked over his glasses behind his desk and said 'we are sending it
back'.
'Why?' I asked. 'Those American morons welded a pumppeg on', he replied.
'So?' I asked. 'We ordered a custom frame for the customer and he didn't
want that little clit, so we sending it back so they solve that
problem' he
said.
'How long did you wait for that frame?', since we live in the
Netherlands .
'Three months'.
'Isn't it a long time to wait maybe another three months?'
'That doesn't matter, custom, is custom and the customer is paying for
that'.
Three weeks later I was admiring a build up Seven with no pumppeg....
Hé, how about that commitment? I like those guys.

landotter wrote:
Commitment? Ten minutes with a Dremel cut off disc and a buffing
attachment and that clit's gone. Sounds like a really crap shop to me--
let me guess, they probably don't know how to build a wheel from
scratch either?

Lou Holtman wrote:
Who allows even a very competent LBS dremel on a new multi thousand euro
custom Ti Seven frame? You must have low quality/aesthetic standards.
And boy, you are wrong about the wheels they build.

landotter wrote:
Three months waiting for the customer because they
don't know how to operate tools? Very lame.

Lou Holtman wrote:
It took Seven three months to build and ship that custom frame to the
Netherlands. Three weeks return time to get rid of the pump peg and
finishing the bike.

I'm with Lou. Shop did the right thing. On custom work, it's either
right or it is not. Period. We've been in roughly the same position
ourselves and made the exact same decision.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

On Jun 6, 1:14*pm, Lou Holtman wrote:
wrote:
On Jun 6, 1:47 am, "Lou Holtman" wrote:

Hé, how about that commitment? I like those guys.

Get the customer what he wants...

I'm having (a very minor) problem making "Dutch, Holland, bicycle"
jibe with rejecting a bigbux custom frame (waiting, transp. risk
factor, can you see where they ground it off, etc. etc.) for having a
pump peg on it, plus wondering at what kind of "riding crowd" one
would have to mingle with where a pump peg, in use or not, would be a
social liability.

Well, like they say, every half a gram or so counts! * --D-y

My English is not that good to understand what you are trying to say.
If you order a red car and they deliver exactly the same model only in
purple you take it anyway and spray paint it red by yourself?

I'll attempt to translate into "real" (or wouldyoubelieve clear?) Eng:
If there's anything one associates with bicycles used in Holland (esp.
Amsterdam, for me), it's "utilitarian". Except for no air in the
tires, of course.

Just working on stereotypes and generalities here, and of course the
Seven in question is probably someone's special go-fast ride that will
never be placed at risk of being tossed into a canal, but the Dutch
just seem so _practical_, you know? And CO2 (and minipumps) seem to be
much less down-to-earth, surefire ways to inflate bike tires than a
good full-length frame-mount pump.

I once had a guy borrow my Zefal, after his CO2 blew off (operator
error) or he had the Second Flat, whatever. He pumped up his tire, put
the wheel back in, reached in his back pocket and brought out a dollar
bill, handed it to me along with the pump, said "That's how much the
next CO2 cartridge would have cost me, keep it!" and I thought it was
a pretty good joke so I did. I don't remember what kind of bike he had
but I got the feeling that he had just made a decision to start
carrying a pump again, using either the pump or the CO2 for backup.

I also wonder, somewhat, at returning the frame-- although I certainly
do understand sending something back to have it made right as we had
to do with my wife's recent Guru Ti custom frame. If something
happened to the frame on the way over or back, as is not entirely rare
in the shipping business... why yes, the customer would expect to get
what he paid for, certainly, but then it would take even longer, say,
if the bike had to be made over from scratch (I wouldn't want a frame
that had been crunched, like when they drive a fork lift truck tine
through the side of the box to be merely repaired).

To each their own. Someone at Seven is light on lunch money, I'm
guessing. --D-y

In article ,
A Muzi wrote:

"Colin Campbell" wrote in message
Grow up and use C02 or, better yet, convert your bike into a boat
anchor and take up shuffleboard.
Exactly backward reasoning, in my opinion.
Why would anyone who rides a bike (it's pretty good exercise, and
uses a
lot of calories, I've heard) want or need to use a CO2 cartridge
system?
With a pump, you get to use more of your own energy to compress air to
fill your tire. With a CO2 cartridge, you are using energy that was
undoubtedly produced by burning hydrocarbons.
CO2 may be faster, but there's a big price for that. If you like
paying
it, go ahead. But "real cyclists" are out there conserving the world's
energy resources by using their own energy, and as a reward, they
get to
eat more goodies!

"Lou Holtman" wrote:
When I visit my LBS I always look at the frames waiting for parts to
build
them up in their display cabinet (they only do build ups). One day I am
admiring a custom made titanium Seven. 'Very nice welds' I said to
him. He
looked over his glasses behind his desk and said 'we are sending it
back'.
'Why?' I asked. 'Those American morons welded a pumppeg on', he replied.
'So?' I asked. 'We ordered a custom frame for the customer and he didn't
want that little clit, so we sending it back so they solve that
problem' he
said.
'How long did you wait for that frame?', since we live in the
Netherlands .
'Three months'.
'Isn't it a long time to wait maybe another three months?'
'That doesn't matter, custom, is custom and the customer is paying for
that'.
Three weeks later I was admiring a build up Seven with no pumppeg....
Hé, how about that commitment? I like those guys.

landotter wrote:
Commitment? Ten minutes with a Dremel cut off disc and a buffing
attachment and that clit's gone. Sounds like a really crap shop to me--
let me guess, they probably don't know how to build a wheel from
scratch either?

Lou Holtman wrote:
Who allows even a very competent LBS dremel on a new multi thousand euro
custom Ti Seven frame? You must have low quality/aesthetic standards.
And boy, you are wrong about the wheels they build.

landotter wrote:
Three months waiting for the customer because they
don't know how to operate tools? Very lame.

Lou Holtman wrote:
It took Seven three months to build and ship that custom frame to the
Netherlands. Three weeks return time to get rid of the pump peg and
finishing the bike.

I'm with Lou. Shop did the right thing. On custom work, it's either
right or it is not. Period. We've been in roughly the same position
ourselves and made the exact same decision.

Do you speak with the customer first?
One case the customer directly specified no pump peg;
another case the option was not discussed.

--
Michael Press

In article ,
Lou Holtman wrote:

Michael Press wrote:
In article ,
"Lou Holtman" wrote:

"Colin Campbell" wrote in message
...
Grow up and use C02 or, better yet, convert your bike into a boat
anchor and take up shuffleboard.
Exactly backward reasoning, in my opinion.

Why would anyone who rides a bike (it's pretty good exercise, and uses a
lot of calories, I've heard) want or need to use a CO2 cartridge system?

With a pump, you get to use more of your own energy to compress air to
fill your tire. With a CO2 cartridge, you are using energy that was
undoubtedly produced by burning hydrocarbons.

CO2 may be faster, but there's a big price for that. If you like paying
it, go ahead. But "real cyclists" are out there conserving the world's
energy resources by using their own energy, and as a reward, they get to
eat more goodies!
When I visit my LBS I always look at the frames waiting for parts to build
them up in their display cabinet (they only do build ups). One day I am
admiring a custom made titanium Seven. 'Very nice welds' I said to him. He
looked over his glasses behind his desk and said 'we are sending it back'.
'Why?' I asked. 'Those American morons welded a pumppeg on', he replied.
'So?' I asked. 'We ordered a custom frame for the customer and he didn't
want that little clit, so we sending it back so they solve that problem' he
said.
'How long did you wait for that frame?', since we live in the Netherlands .
'Three months'.
'Isn't it a long time to wait maybe another three months?'
'That doesn't matter, custom, is custom and the customer is paying for
that'.
Three weeks later I was admiring a build up Seven with no pumppeg....

Hé, how about that commitment? I like those guys.

From your report it does not sound as if he asked the customer.

He did. I know that guy.

OK.


And if that is the case, he mistreating his own customer.

No he didn't. I would have done the same in that case.

But the tone of your report: first words are "Those American morons..."
Now you say everyone involved is a nice guy, but the tone of the
original report is different.

We would need to see every bit of paperwork to understand this.

--
Michael Press

In article ,
Lou Holtman wrote:

Michael Press wrote:
In article ,
"Lou Holtman" wrote:

"Colin Campbell" wrote in message
...
Grow up and use C02 or, better yet, convert your bike into a boat
anchor and take up shuffleboard.
Exactly backward reasoning, in my opinion.

Why would anyone who rides a bike (it's pretty good exercise, and uses a
lot of calories, I've heard) want or need to use a CO2 cartridge system?

With a pump, you get to use more of your own energy to compress air to
fill your tire. With a CO2 cartridge, you are using energy that was
undoubtedly produced by burning hydrocarbons.

CO2 may be faster, but there's a big price for that. If you like paying
it, go ahead. But "real cyclists" are out there conserving the world's
energy resources by using their own energy, and as a reward, they get to
eat more goodies!
When I visit my LBS I always look at the frames waiting for parts to build
them up in their display cabinet (they only do build ups). One day I am
admiring a custom made titanium Seven. 'Very nice welds' I said to him. He
looked over his glasses behind his desk and said 'we are sending it back'.
'Why?' I asked. 'Those American morons welded a pumppeg on', he replied.
'So?' I asked. 'We ordered a custom frame for the customer and he didn't
want that little clit, so we sending it back so they solve that problem' he
said.
'How long did you wait for that frame?', since we live in the Netherlands .
'Three months'.
'Isn't it a long time to wait maybe another three months?'
'That doesn't matter, custom, is custom and the customer is paying for
that'.
Three weeks later I was admiring a build up Seven with no pumppeg....

Hé, how about that commitment? I like those guys.

From your report it does not sound as if he asked the customer.

He did. I know that guy.

And if that is the case, he mistreating his own customer.

No he didn't. I would have done the same in that case.

And from the tone of your report he is mostly miserable with everybody.

He is a very relaxed guy.

Really. I admire a piece of equipment in his shop and he starts
bitching out of the gate. I cannot do business in that type
of atmosphere.

If you don't want to do business with him, he probably don't want
business with you either. No problem.
They have the best wrench in the area. The only guy I let service my
bikes. No piercings or tattoo's ;-)

I said I do not do business in the kind of atmosphere the original
report suggests; not the revised old-world craftsmanship atmosphere.
What is it to you what the "American morons" did unless you share
a prejudice? The welds are still beautiful. And do you really care
about his business problems? I go into a shop with my own problems
and unless they concern the proprietor I keep schtum; I expect him
to return the favor.

--
Michael Press

"Colin Campbell" wrote in message
Grow up and use C02 or, better yet, convert your bike into a boat
anchor and take up shuffleboard.
Exactly backward reasoning, in my opinion.
Why would anyone who rides a bike (it's pretty good exercise, and
uses a
lot of calories, I've heard) want or need to use a CO2 cartridge
system?
With a pump, you get to use more of your own energy to compress air to
fill your tire. With a CO2 cartridge, you are using energy that was
undoubtedly produced by burning hydrocarbons.
CO2 may be faster, but there's a big price for that. If you like
paying
it, go ahead. But "real cyclists" are out there conserving the world's
energy resources by using their own energy, and as a reward, they
get to
eat more goodies!
"Lou Holtman" wrote:
When I visit my LBS I always look at the frames waiting for parts to
build
them up in their display cabinet (they only do build ups). One day I am
admiring a custom made titanium Seven. 'Very nice welds' I said to
him. He
looked over his glasses behind his desk and said 'we are sending it
back'.
'Why?' I asked. 'Those American morons welded a pumppeg on', he replied.
'So?' I asked. 'We ordered a custom frame for the customer and he didn't
want that little clit, so we sending it back so they solve that
problem' he
said.
'How long did you wait for that frame?', since we live in the
Netherlands .
'Three months'.
'Isn't it a long time to wait maybe another three months?'
'That doesn't matter, custom, is custom and the customer is paying for
that'.
Three weeks later I was admiring a build up Seven with no pumppeg....
Hé, how about that commitment? I like those guys.
landotter wrote:
Commitment? Ten minutes with a Dremel cut off disc and a buffing
attachment and that clit's gone. Sounds like a really crap shop to me--
let me guess, they probably don't know how to build a wheel from
scratch either?
Lou Holtman wrote:
Who allows even a very competent LBS dremel on a new multi thousand euro
custom Ti Seven frame? You must have low quality/aesthetic standards.
And boy, you are wrong about the wheels they build.
landotter wrote:
Three months waiting for the customer because they
don't know how to operate tools? Very lame.
Lou Holtman wrote:
It took Seven three months to build and ship that custom frame to the
Netherlands. Three weeks return time to get rid of the pump peg and
finishing the bike.

A Muzi wrote:
I'm with Lou. Shop did the right thing. On custom work, it's either
right or it is not. Period. We've been in roughly the same position
ourselves and made the exact same decision.

Michael Press wrote:
Do you speak with the customer first?
One case the customer directly specified no pump peg;
another case the option was not discussed.

It should be to customer's taste.

If a customer orders a new touring bike but writes the paint code number
from the chip below the number, not above, he gets the wrong shade of
green. That's a workable situation and in fact he accepted it. (changed
his mind a year later for a respray. On us) Hey it happens, it's not a
crime to be ditzy.

I spoke with a painter yesterday who had a 1968 Paramount restoration
returned because the seat tube panel was a half inch too high (compared
to original spec). I think that customer was being unreasonable (I had
no dog in that fight)

We are respraying a Gios now which we sold new in 1978. It came to us
with a brand new good quality respray, original decals and clear done in
a workmanlike manner. Except it was done in a nice not-quite-Gios blue.
Our customer knows the difference. And cares. Gios Blue is a unique and
difficult color but the first painter should have cleared it with the
customer before spraying.

Parts go on or off as required (and customers notoriously vacillate!)
but a frame spec or finish is harder to rectify when it's off-spec.

I don't know if Seven drills a locating hole before welding a pump peg
and I would not like to find out on a new custom frame. Even so,
finishing across a titanium weld will leave a different texture in a
small spot.

Generally, it should be ruled by customer's taste but, yes, every
incident is a special case.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

Michael Press wrote:
In article ,
A Muzi wrote:

"Colin Campbell" wrote in message
Grow up and use C02 or, better yet, convert your bike into a boat
anchor and take up shuffleboard.
Exactly backward reasoning, in my opinion.
Why would anyone who rides a bike (it's pretty good exercise, and
uses a
lot of calories, I've heard) want or need to use a CO2 cartridge
system?
With a pump, you get to use more of your own energy to compress air to
fill your tire. With a CO2 cartridge, you are using energy that was
undoubtedly produced by burning hydrocarbons.
CO2 may be faster, but there's a big price for that. If you like
paying
it, go ahead. But "real cyclists" are out there conserving the world's
energy resources by using their own energy, and as a reward, they
get to
eat more goodies!
"Lou Holtman" wrote:
When I visit my LBS I always look at the frames waiting for parts to
build
them up in their display cabinet (they only do build ups). One day I am
admiring a custom made titanium Seven. 'Very nice welds' I said to
him. He
looked over his glasses behind his desk and said 'we are sending it
back'.
'Why?' I asked. 'Those American morons welded a pumppeg on', he replied.
'So?' I asked. 'We ordered a custom frame for the customer and he didn't
want that little clit, so we sending it back so they solve that
problem' he
said.
'How long did you wait for that frame?', since we live in the
Netherlands .
'Three months'.
'Isn't it a long time to wait maybe another three months?'
'That doesn't matter, custom, is custom and the customer is paying for
that'.
Three weeks later I was admiring a build up Seven with no pumppeg....
Hé, how about that commitment? I like those guys.
landotter wrote:
Commitment? Ten minutes with a Dremel cut off disc and a buffing
attachment and that clit's gone. Sounds like a really crap shop to me--
let me guess, they probably don't know how to build a wheel from
scratch either?
Lou Holtman wrote:
Who allows even a very competent LBS dremel on a new multi thousand euro
custom Ti Seven frame? You must have low quality/aesthetic standards.
And boy, you are wrong about the wheels they build.
landotter wrote:
Three months waiting for the customer because they
don't know how to operate tools? Very lame.
Lou Holtman wrote:
It took Seven three months to build and ship that custom frame to the
Netherlands. Three weeks return time to get rid of the pump peg and
finishing the bike.
I'm with Lou. Shop did the right thing. On custom work, it's either
right or it is not. Period. We've been in roughly the same position
ourselves and made the exact same decision.

Do you speak with the customer first?
One case the customer directly specified no pump peg;

It was. The pumpeg checkbox in the orde form was NOT checked.

Lou

Michael Press wrote:
In article ,
Lou Holtman wrote:

Michael Press wrote:
In article ,
"Lou Holtman" wrote:

"Colin Campbell" wrote in message
...
Grow up and use C02 or, better yet, convert your bike into a boat
anchor and take up shuffleboard.
Exactly backward reasoning, in my opinion.

Why would anyone who rides a bike (it's pretty good exercise, and uses a
lot of calories, I've heard) want or need to use a CO2 cartridge system?

With a pump, you get to use more of your own energy to compress air to
fill your tire. With a CO2 cartridge, you are using energy that was
undoubtedly produced by burning hydrocarbons.

CO2 may be faster, but there's a big price for that. If you like paying
it, go ahead. But "real cyclists" are out there conserving the world's
energy resources by using their own energy, and as a reward, they get to
eat more goodies!
When I visit my LBS I always look at the frames waiting for parts to build
them up in their display cabinet (they only do build ups). One day I am
admiring a custom made titanium Seven. 'Very nice welds' I said to him. He
looked over his glasses behind his desk and said 'we are sending it back'.
'Why?' I asked. 'Those American morons welded a pumppeg on', he replied.
'So?' I asked. 'We ordered a custom frame for the customer and he didn't
want that little clit, so we sending it back so they solve that problem' he
said.
'How long did you wait for that frame?', since we live in the Netherlands .
'Three months'.
'Isn't it a long time to wait maybe another three months?'
'That doesn't matter, custom, is custom and the customer is paying for
that'.
Three weeks later I was admiring a build up Seven with no pumppeg....

Hé, how about that commitment? I like those guys.
From your report it does not sound as if he asked the customer.
He did. I know that guy.

OK.

And if that is the case, he mistreating his own customer.
No he didn't. I would have done the same in that case.

But the tone of your report: first words are "Those American morons..."
Now you say everyone involved is a nice guy, but the tone of the
original report is different.

The guy was ****ed at that moment, you can understand that can't you? I
would and if you are ****ed you say stupid things sometimes. He would
not say that to a complete stranger of course. I'm am a good customer there.


We would need to see every bit of paperwork to understand this.

No it isn't that important. Like I sain it was just an anecdote.

Lou

Lou Holtman wrote:
-snip pump peg-
It was. The pumpeg checkbox in the orde form was NOT checked.

"YES-NO" boxes make better forms!
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **