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Another doctor questions helmet research



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 6th 04, 06:58 PM
JFJones
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Default Another doctor questions helmet research

An article in the Irish Medical Times written by a cycling doctor
questions the validity of commonly quoted helmet studies:

http://www.imt.ie/displayarticle.asp...724&NS=1&SID=1
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  #2  
Old August 6th 04, 09:21 PM
steve
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Default Another doctor questions helmet research

I don't get why anyone points this out any more. If you want to wear a
helmet wear one. If not don't. If you live in a country where it's the
law then talk to your legislators media and acquaintances.

Statistics have nothing to do with it at all. I could care less if I
have a 1 in 440 chance of killing myself with a helmet on or off. If
you think that if you hitting your head with your helmet off will hurt
less than hitting it with the helmet on, please do so repeatedly.

It's not brain sugery you know. Or is it?

steve

In article , JFJones
wrote:

http://www.imt.ie/displayarticle.asp...724&NS=1&SID=1

  #3  
Old August 7th 04, 03:46 AM
psycholist
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Default Another doctor questions helmet research


"steve" wrote in message
...
I don't get why anyone points this out any more. If you want to wear a
helmet wear one. If not don't. If you live in a country where it's the
law then talk to your legislators media and acquaintances.

Statistics have nothing to do with it at all. I could care less if I
have a 1 in 440 chance of killing myself with a helmet on or off. If
you think that if you hitting your head with your helmet off will hurt
less than hitting it with the helmet on, please do so repeatedly.

It's not brain sugery you know. Or is it?

steve


Very well said, Steve.

Bob C.


  #4  
Old August 7th 04, 05:54 AM
RogerDodger
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Default Another doctor questions helmet research


steve Wrote:
I don't get why anyone points this out any more. If you want to wear a
helmet wear one. If not don't. If you live in a country where it's the
law then talk to your legislators media and acquaintances.

steve



In contrast to Steve I do know why people point this out and the reason
is to point out that that although Helmetitus is widespread and popular,
it is nethertheless, a delusion. Delusions need to be shown as such - of
course.

Roger


--
RogerDodger

  #5  
Old August 7th 04, 04:34 PM
Michael Warner
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Default Another doctor questions helmet research

On Fri, 06 Aug 2004 20:21:22 GMT, steve wrote:

I don't get why anyone points this out any more. If you want to wear a
helmet wear one. If not don't. If you live in a country where it's the
law then talk to your legislators media and acquaintances.


ISTM that non-helmet-wearers see entire nations of
compulsory-helmet-wearers as a threat to their civil liberties. That's
why they rail against it, and compile stats designed to show it in
a bad light. But data can be selected and massaged to show anything,
of course.

--
bpo gallery at http://www4.tpgi.com.au/users/mvw1/bpo
  #6  
Old August 7th 04, 04:37 PM
Frank Krygowski
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Default Another doctor questions helmet research

steve wrote:

[regarding http://www.imt.ie/displayarticle.asp...724&NS=1&SID=1 ]

I don't get why anyone points this out any more. If you want to wear a
helmet wear one. If not don't. If you live in a country where it's the
law then talk to your legislators media and acquaintances.

Statistics have nothing to do with it at all. I could care less if I
have a 1 in 440 chance of killing myself with a helmet on or off. If
you think that if you hitting your head with your helmet off will hurt
less than hitting it with the helmet on, please do so repeatedly.

It's not brain sugery you know. Or is it?


People point this out because there's a tremendous amount of
misinformation being published by helmet promoters. The misinformation
makes people believe that bicycling is very dangerous, and that helmets
are very effective. Both ideas are wrong.

When people believe those mistaken ideas, people cycle less, and
legislators are easily convinced to make cycling illegal unless a helmet
is worn. And getting legislators to rescind an action based on false
premises is much harder than Steve seems to think. (WMD invasion, anyone?)

Furthermore, because of the misinformation, cyclists who are injured
through no fault of their own get attacked by motorist's lawyers for
doing something as "dangerous" as riding a bike, or for doing it with
the wrong style hat.

Anyone is free to wear a helmet if they choose, even if it's only
because they don't understand statistics. But it does seem a shame that
such a well-reasoned, well-documented letter as the one at
http://www.imt.ie/displayarticle.asp...724&NS=1&SID=1 would draw such
hostile, unthinking reaction.

--
--------------------+
Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com,
replace with cc.ysu dot edu]

  #7  
Old August 7th 04, 05:47 PM
Luigi de Guzman
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Default Another doctor questions helmet research

On Sat, 07 Aug 2004 11:37:26 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:


Anyone is free to wear a helmet if they choose, even if it's only
because they don't understand statistics. But it does seem a shame that
such a well-reasoned, well-documented letter as the one at
http://www.imt.ie/displayarticle.asp...724&NS=1&SID=1 would draw such
hostile, unthinking reaction.


Postmodern society pays lipservice to rationality, but worships at the
altar of avoiding pain.

No weight of statistics nor empirical data will convince scared people
to go out and do what they've been told not to do. That requires an
irrational act of will.

My father won't ride his bicycle in the street because he's scared--no
matter how persuasive I am with the statistical arguments for accident
rates, visibility, etcetera.

I should make a full disclosure of my hypocrisy: I wear a helmet for
protection not entirely related to impact: it's big and white, and
fairly bright in most lighting conditions. I'd like to think it makes
me a bit more visible. And should anything bad happen to me, I'll
never get the miscreant to pay out unless I have one on, since
otherwise I'd be vulnerable to charges of contributory negligence.
All the rational argumentation in the world is for naught when you're
in front of ignorant people who are (even temporarily) empowered to
deny you justice.

=-Luigi
  #8  
Old August 7th 04, 06:38 PM
Doug Purdy
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Default Another doctor questions helmet research

"Luigi de Guzman" wrote in message
...
My father won't ride his bicycle in the street because he's scared--no
matter how persuasive I am with the statistical arguments for accident
rates, visibility, etcetera.

I should make a full disclosure of my hypocrisy: I wear a helmet for
protection not entirely related to impact: it's big and white, and
fairly bright in most lighting conditions. I'd like to think it makes
me a bit more visible. And should anything bad happen to me, I'll
never get the miscreant to pay out unless I have one on, since
otherwise I'd be vulnerable to charges of contributory negligence.
All the rational argumentation in the world is for naught when you're
in front of ignorant people who are (even temporarily) empowered to
deny you justice.


Seeing as how people in general are just as convinced that riding a bicycle
on the street is suicide, do we have to worry about "contributory
negligence" because we were riding a bike?

Doug


  #9  
Old August 7th 04, 08:09 PM
Frank Krygowski
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Default Another doctor questions helmet research

Michael Warner wrote:

ISTM that non-helmet-wearers see entire nations of
compulsory-helmet-wearers as a threat to their civil liberties.


I see such people as more a threat to bicycling. It disturbs me greatly
when people portray cycling as SO dangerous that it's foolish to take a
neighborhood spin without protective headgear.

It disturbs me more when people believe that, and cycle less because of it.

That's
why they rail against it, and compile stats designed to show it in
a bad light. But data can be selected and massaged to show anything,
of course.


Sigh When someone makes that "data can show anything" argument, I
lament for the state of scientific education.

Certainly, one can _say_ data can show anything, just as one can say the
sun rises in the west. One must examine the data and conclusions and
resulting discussions to make an informed judgement about what's true
and what's not.

Some issues are pretty definite. A person saying the sun rises in the
west is easily proven wrong, and the discussion doesn't last long.
Other issues (like this one) are more complicated, and require more
thinking to understand.

Unfortunately, there's a large pool of people who stand to make money by
selling helmets, and another large pool of "safety missionaries" bent on
having everyone conform to their idea of risk. There's also a big
number of True Believers, who latch onto the first idea that comes their
way and never question it. These people greatly outnumber the pool of
people who love cycling, and have the scientific competentence to see
through the bull****.


Here's an example of some of the discussion, regarding a pro-helmet
paper published in a well-respected journal - but rife with mistakes.
Read on only if you're math-competent.

http://ip.bmjjournals.com/cgi/eletters/9/3/266

[Note that the page shows letters in reverse cronological order. IOW,
start reading at the bottom.]


--
Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com.
Substitute cc dot ysu dot
edu]

  #10  
Old August 8th 04, 05:33 AM
RonSonic
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Default Another doctor questions helmet research

On Sat, 07 Aug 2004 17:38:13 GMT, "Doug Purdy" wrote:

"Luigi de Guzman" wrote in message
.. .
My father won't ride his bicycle in the street because he's scared--no
matter how persuasive I am with the statistical arguments for accident
rates, visibility, etcetera.

I should make a full disclosure of my hypocrisy: I wear a helmet for
protection not entirely related to impact: it's big and white, and
fairly bright in most lighting conditions. I'd like to think it makes
me a bit more visible. And should anything bad happen to me, I'll
never get the miscreant to pay out unless I have one on, since
otherwise I'd be vulnerable to charges of contributory negligence.
All the rational argumentation in the world is for naught when you're
in front of ignorant people who are (even temporarily) empowered to
deny you justice.


Seeing as how people in general are just as convinced that riding a bicycle
on the street is suicide, do we have to worry about "contributory
negligence" because we were riding a bike?


Depends on how good the other guys lawyer is.

"There he was balanced on two wheels, just asking for it."

"Have you ever fallen without being hit by my client?" Wait for answer.... "Well
there ya go."

"My client's dog could not have bitten him - he is toothless and was tied up in
the backyard. Furthermore, my client does not own a dog."

Ron

 




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