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Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries



 
 
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  #111  
Old February 12th 18, 04:59 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
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Posts: 4,854
Default Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries

On 2018-02-11 10:17, sms wrote:
On 2/11/2018 10:03 AM, Joerg wrote:

snip

Does it at least have a low-battery warning?


Yes, the LEDs get dimmer.


Great. So yet another flawed design.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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  #112  
Old February 12th 18, 05:03 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
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Posts: 4,854
Default Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries

On 2018-02-11 12:33, sms wrote:
On 2/11/2018 10:26 AM, Ralph Barone wrote:
Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-11 09:28, sms wrote:
On 2/11/2018 8:19 AM, Joerg wrote:

snip

Or in my case real electrical systems such as cars had them for
decades. Though I was surprised how few cyclists do this and that
still holds true today. Most just have blinkers with some tiny AAA
cells in there. The designers of those things usually weren't even
smart enough to integrate a low-battery warning so I often see riders
where the rear light has fizzled to the power of a glowing
cigarette tip.

Those AAA cell lights are really annoying.

My favorite tail light is the CatEye TL-LD1100 which uses two AA cells.
It also is one of the few tail lights that still has side-pointing LEDs
as well are rear pointing LEDs.

Still available from Asia.
https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/CATEYE-Bike-Bicycle-6-LED-Rear-Tail-Laser-Light-Bike-Back-Red-Light-Safety-Warning-Flashing/434036_32786881487.html.



Does it at least have a low-battery warning?


Sure. There are six red LEDs at the back of the unit. When they get
really
dim, your battery is low.


LOL, that's what I said.

PS: What is the use of a low battery indicator on a device that is
mounted
where you can't see it?



Simple: When clicking the light on you must stand over it or near it. It
could, for example, issue three short flashes after turn-on for batt-ok,
two flashes for "enough but not for more than a few hours" and on flash
for "it'll be empty very soon".


True. Plus sticking a couple of AA cells in your tool bag is not a big
deal.



And then the light gets dimmer and dimmer and runs out while on a long ride.


Running wires all over the bicycle to power lights from a central
power source has its drawbacks.


My road bike even has wires inside the tubes.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #113  
Old February 12th 18, 05:07 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
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Posts: 6,977
Default Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries

On Monday, February 12, 2018 at 10:55:40 AM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-12 00:13, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 11 Feb 2018 13:33:47 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On 2/11/2018 10:55 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-10 18:25, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 10 Feb 2018 19:25:57 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On 2/10/2018 4:03 PM, Joerg wrote:

Everyone installing a high-powered LED light on a bicycle, front or
rear, should walk towards their lit bike during daylight and then again
at night. If the light is annoying, do something about it.

I agree with this.

But I'd add, before buying high powered LED lights, check out any more
ordinary lights you have in a similar way. Have a friend ride your bike
as you observe. I've done this many times with friends.

Contrary to current myths, you do not need super-powerful lights to be
plenty visible. Any headlight that shows the road sufficiently will be
perfectly visible to motorists, and taillights need far, far less power
to make you safe.


I had plenty of opportunity to compare StVZO tail lights versus the over
there "illegal" lights such as PDW DangerZone or Radbot. HUGE difference
in visibility.
Joerg, I don't think anyone disagrees that super-bright, non-compliant,
glaring lights make you more visible. Using an aircraft landing light
would make you more visible. Using an emergency vehicle light bar
http://www.fleetsafety.com/federal-s...led-light-bar/
would make you more visible.

What many people are arguing is that your extremes are not necessary and
not even appropriate. They are detrimental to other road users,
including other cyclists, and their promotion constitutes more fear
mongering. You're being no smarter than the asses who always drive their
jacked-up pickups with high beams, light bars and fog lights glaring.
It's MFFY behavior.

A bicyclist does NOT need headlights as bright as those on a 75 mph car,
just as he does not need 10 gauge spokes, motorcycle-strength chains,
solid flat-proof tires or all the other extreme equipment you call for.


- Frank Krygowski


In the morning I see 20 or 25 bicycles in my "hood" every day and to
date I've yet to see a light turned on although nearly all of them
have a dynamo and head light mounted on the front wheel, and even with
the fleets of motorcycle taxi's and the kids going to school and all
the folks buying their daily provisions I've yet to see a bicycle
collide with anything.

How can this be" No lights and no collisions?



Can be summed up in one expression: Safety in numbers.

We don't have that in most of America. People are more lazy and
human-powered propelling is frowned upon as too stressful and too lowly.
So hardly anyone does it and car drivers do not anticipate a cyclist.
Most towns have mode shares between 0% and 1%. Classic example
yesterday. A driver in a parking lot pulled out, me full brakes, she was
sorry, nothing happened. She had clearly seen me because 8W into an LED
can't be missed. She probably just didn't know that cyclists can be a
lot faster in their approach than a pedestrian.


How odd. Your 8 Watt daytime running light didn't prevent a near collision.
Yet I never ride without a daytime running light, and I never suffer your near
misses.

Of course, I tend to use a very conspicuous lane position. You've argued that
you need to ride in the gutter.

- Frank Krygowski
  #114  
Old February 12th 18, 05:11 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
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Posts: 6,977
Default Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries

On Monday, February 12, 2018 at 3:13:46 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 11 Feb 2018 13:33:47 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On 2/11/2018 10:55 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-10 18:25, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 10 Feb 2018 19:25:57 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On 2/10/2018 4:03 PM, Joerg wrote:

Everyone installing a high-powered LED light on a bicycle, front or
rear, should walk towards their lit bike during daylight and then again
at night. If the light is annoying, do something about it.

I agree with this.

But I'd add, before buying high powered LED lights, check out any more
ordinary lights you have in a similar way. Have a friend ride your bike
as you observe. I've done this many times with friends.

Contrary to current myths, you do not need super-powerful lights to be
plenty visible. Any headlight that shows the road sufficiently will be
perfectly visible to motorists, and taillights need far, far less power
to make you safe.


I had plenty of opportunity to compare StVZO tail lights versus the over
there "illegal" lights such as PDW DangerZone or Radbot. HUGE difference
in visibility.

Joerg, I don't think anyone disagrees that super-bright, non-compliant,
glaring lights make you more visible. Using an aircraft landing light
would make you more visible. Using an emergency vehicle light bar
http://www.fleetsafety.com/federal-s...led-light-bar/
would make you more visible.

What many people are arguing is that your extremes are not necessary and
not even appropriate. They are detrimental to other road users,
including other cyclists, and their promotion constitutes more fear
mongering. You're being no smarter than the asses who always drive their
jacked-up pickups with high beams, light bars and fog lights glaring.
It's MFFY behavior.

A bicyclist does NOT need headlights as bright as those on a 75 mph car,
just as he does not need 10 gauge spokes, motorcycle-strength chains,
solid flat-proof tires or all the other extreme equipment you call for.


- Frank Krygowski


In the morning I see 20 or 25 bicycles in my "hood" every day and to
date I've yet to see a light turned on although nearly all of them
have a dynamo and head light mounted on the front wheel, and even with
the fleets of motorcycle taxi's and the kids going to school and all
the folks buying their daily provisions I've yet to see a bicycle
collide with anything.

How can this be" No lights and no collisions?


What's the street lighting like?

In many city areas, lighting is bright enough that bicyclists can be visible
even without lights. Not that I recommend riding without lights - but it
can be survivable.

- Frank Krygowski
  #115  
Old February 12th 18, 05:40 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
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Posts: 8,107
Default Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries

On 2/12/2018 7:58 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-11 10:15, sms wrote:
On 2/11/2018 10:02 AM, Joerg wrote:

That is how I used dynamos in the past and would like to do that
again. However, in the US it is hard to find a reasonably priced
complete front wheel with a hub dynamo and I don't want to spoke up my
own. So it'll have to be a bottle dynamo (rollers went the way of the
dinosuars) and then I'd like to try Frank's mode with an O-ring and
run it on the brake surface nstead of the tire.


If we were ever to move to dynamos in the U.S. it would require that
bicycle manufacturers have their dealers offer a dynamo wheel upgrade
and light on new bikes at a reasonable price. Spending $200 on a new
wheel and another $200 on a decent dynamo light is just not going to
happen for almost anyone. Yet the extra cost to a bicycle manufacturer
would be small, $50 max for a higher-end SP or Shimano dynamo plus a 200
lumen headlight and a tail light. The shop could mark it up to $100.



You are right, it's not going to happen in the US. Mostly because the
majority of riders sees their bikes as fitness training devices and not
as transportation for use at any time of the day or night.


If you exclude small kids bikes, it may still be a majority, but not as
large as you think, depending on the area. On weekdays, there is a big
transportational cycling percentage, almost certainly much larger than
recreational riders, and I'm including students riding to school.

  #116  
Old February 12th 18, 05:51 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,107
Default Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries

On 2/12/2018 8:03 AM, Joerg wrote:

snip

Simple: When clicking the light on you must stand over it or near it. It
could, for example, issue three short flashes after turn-on for batt-ok,
two flashes for "enough but not for more than a few hours" and on flash
for "it'll be empty very soon".


That's reasonable for a USB powered light with Li-Ion batteries. For a
device running on AA or AAA batteries, not really, because different
chemistry AA batteries have very different voltages and discharge curves.

Battery voltage for primary D, C, AA, AAA, AAAA cells:
Alkaline-manganese dioxide: 1.5V. Linear voltage degradation
NiMH: 1.2V with almost do voltage degradation until fully discharged.
Primary Lithium (LiFeS2): up to 1.83V, typically 1.7V, discharged
if 1.6V or less. Decreasing voltage during discharge, not quite linear.

I have seen a device where there was a switch to flip for NiMH versus
Alkaline to account for the different voltages in order to provide a
more accurate low battery warning, though no option for LiFeS2.
  #117  
Old February 12th 18, 06:13 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,854
Default Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries

On 2018-02-12 08:40, sms wrote:
On 2/12/2018 7:58 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-11 10:15, sms wrote:
On 2/11/2018 10:02 AM, Joerg wrote:

That is how I used dynamos in the past and would like to do that
again. However, in the US it is hard to find a reasonably priced
complete front wheel with a hub dynamo and I don't want to spoke up my
own. So it'll have to be a bottle dynamo (rollers went the way of the
dinosuars) and then I'd like to try Frank's mode with an O-ring and
run it on the brake surface nstead of the tire.

If we were ever to move to dynamos in the U.S. it would require that
bicycle manufacturers have their dealers offer a dynamo wheel upgrade
and light on new bikes at a reasonable price. Spending $200 on a new
wheel and another $200 on a decent dynamo light is just not going to
happen for almost anyone. Yet the extra cost to a bicycle manufacturer
would be small, $50 max for a higher-end SP or Shimano dynamo plus a 200
lumen headlight and a tail light. The shop could mark it up to $100.



You are right, it's not going to happen in the US. Mostly because the
majority of riders sees their bikes as fitness training devices and
not as transportation for use at any time of the day or night.


If you exclude small kids bikes, it may still be a majority, but not as
large as you think, depending on the area. On weekdays, there is a big
transportational cycling percentage, almost certainly much larger than
recreational riders, and I'm including students riding to school.


Yes, students must be included because that is clearly commuting.
Hwoever, the percentage of kids cycling to our local high school is
practically zero. In part because the two-lane roads going there have no
shoulder and are dangerous for cyclists. I wouldn't encourage kids to
use those.

Down in the valley where they have wider roads, bike lanes and bike path
systems I see a slowly increasing number of high school kids use a bike.
Still, a lot more training riders in fancy jerseys. Most go in evenings
and some as a lunch hour ride. It was the same at the company I used to
work at, numerous lunch hour riders but nobody commuted by bike.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #118  
Old February 12th 18, 06:23 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,854
Default Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries

On 2018-02-12 08:51, sms wrote:
On 2/12/2018 8:03 AM, Joerg wrote:

snip

Simple: When clicking the light on you must stand over it or near it.
It could, for example, issue three short flashes after turn-on for
batt-ok, two flashes for "enough but not for more than a few hours"
and on flash for "it'll be empty very soon".


That's reasonable for a USB powered light with Li-Ion batteries. For a
device running on AA or AAA batteries, not really, because different
chemistry AA batteries have very different voltages and discharge curves.

Battery voltage for primary D, C, AA, AAA, AAAA cells:
Alkaline-manganese dioxide: 1.5V. Linear voltage degradation
NiMH: 1.2V with almost do voltage degradation until fully discharged.
Primary Lithium (LiFeS2): up to 1.83V, typically 1.7V, discharged
if 1.6V or less. Decreasing voltage during discharge, not quite linear.

I have seen a device where there was a switch to flip for NiMH versus
Alkaline to account for the different voltages in order to provide a
more accurate low battery warning, though no option for LiFeS2.



You could provide a zero-cost alkaline-NiMH function swap by, for
example, pressing the on-off button for 3sec. Not necessary though
because more rear lights are a bit dim with 1.2V NiMH and I bet 99% of
riders use AAA cells. So just provide a lo-bat warning for alkaline and
that goes a long way.

Of course, for that to work the IC designers must be competent enough to
include a decent bandgap reference. You wouldn't believe how many aren't.

It doesn't have to be accurate, just ballpark. Mainly because almost
nobody remembers how many hours the recent set of batteries has been used.

Another near-zero cost method would be to provide a coarse timer.
5h-10-15h-20h-25h. Simple RC or relaxation oscillator, one through five
flashes for status, done. Or just count the number of blinks. Serious
riders know how long batteries of their choice will last so they can
then decide at 15h or 20h to change them out.

Product design can be quite simple and cheap if we just think outside
the box and most of all try the designed products ourselves. A bike
accessory manufacturer should preferably hire ... riders.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #119  
Old February 12th 18, 06:38 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 2,900
Default Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries

On Monday, February 12, 2018 at 7:56:20 AM UTC-8, sms wrote:
On 2/12/2018 7:20 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, February 12, 2018 at 5:25:55 AM UTC-8, sms wrote:
On 2/12/2018 5:00 AM, Sepp Ruf wrote:

No, Joerg is claiming that ordinary StVZO tail lights that are visible from
500 meters in Europe are not good enough for his and fellow Californians'
impaired sense of vision, and why he feels tail lights that feature 5000 ft+
visibility are preferable. And he is trying to confuse what can actually be
powered by dynamo with what he "remembers" seeing, back then, on inspecified
cycles in traffic.

The StVZO lights are woefully inadequate. Don't forget that you need one
that is visible in the daytime as well. You don't need a 1500 lumen tail
light, but many are ridiculously weak, 10 lumens, or even less.


I don't know if I've seen a StVZO tail light, but I've see a lot that are invisible either by design or because of dying batteries and a lot that are too bright to ride behind at night. Most fall somewhere in between and are plentiful -- from PDW, Lesyne, L&M, etc. The chronically nervous sometimes have two or three tail lights, which is kind of humorous -- unless they're blinding. Again, in sunshine, I always see the jersey first. I ride up behind someone and notice the tail light when I'm five feet away. It's like a fashion accessory.


"Seeing the jersey first" is great if you're riding with recreational
riders all wearing yellow or orange fluorescent jerseys. For
transportational cycling, which there's a lot of in my area, the riders
aren't typically wearing highly visible clothes like that.


That's fine, and around here, people don't worry. I'm saying if you worry about being seen, be visible. Lights aren't as good as high-viz clothing in daytime. Typical PDX garb: http://deepgreenmovie.com/wp-content...PDX-Bikers.jpg Who is most visible? Note absence of DRLs.


The key to getting more people out on bicycles is to promote equipment
that allows them to ride to work or school in normal clothes, and
provide routes that make the ride practical.

If you've been to Palo Alto, the cross-town bicycle boulevard is
probably about the most usable infrastructure I've seen, and there is no
bicycle lane. It continues through Mountain View. We are working on a
bicycle boulevard system for Cupertino, and in the last election, the
two winners were both in favor of this, while the other three serious
candidates had no interest in bicycle infrastructure at all.


I have been trying to get a bicycle light giveaway going, even though
most riders could afford lights they don't get them. Especially bad is
students riding to school in the early morning when it's dark.


You need lights to see when it is dark and to be seen when it is dark or overcast, assuming you're not wearing bright clothes. A light is useless on sunny days, except in rare instances with hard dappled light caused by tree canopy or similar conditions generally lacking from inner-cities where all the "transportational" cyclists ride.



-- Jay Beattie.
  #120  
Old February 12th 18, 06:42 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,854
Default Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries

On 2018-02-12 07:56, sms wrote:
On 2/12/2018 7:20 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, February 12, 2018 at 5:25:55 AM UTC-8, sms wrote:
On 2/12/2018 5:00 AM, Sepp Ruf wrote:

No, Joerg is claiming that ordinary StVZO tail lights that are
visible from
500 meters in Europe are not good enough for his and fellow
Californians'
impaired sense of vision, and why he feels tail lights that feature
5000 ft+
visibility are preferable. And he is trying to confuse what can
actually be
powered by dynamo with what he "remembers" seeing, back then, on
inspecified
cycles in traffic.

The StVZO lights are woefully inadequate. Don't forget that you need one
that is visible in the daytime as well. You don't need a 1500 lumen tail
light, but many are ridiculously weak, 10 lumens, or even less.



That was also my impression. I thought LED technology would have made
them better but maybe they reduced the power so much that it didn't
increase brightness much. A bicycle rear light must be as bright as a
motorcycle rear light, else the risk of being rear-ended increases, as
does the number of close calls. Most of all it must be as wide because
motorists often subconsciously gauge their distance to other vehicles in
front by the "fatness" of the lights.


I don't know if I've seen a StVZO tail light, but I've see a lot that
are invisible either by design or because of dying batteries and a lot
that are too bright to ride behind at night. Most fall somewhere in
between and are plentiful -- from PDW, Lesyne, L&M, etc. The
chronically nervous sometimes have two or three tail lights, which is
kind of humorous -- unless they're blinding. Again, in sunshine, I
always see the jersey first. I ride up behind someone and notice the
tail light when I'm five feet away. It's like a fashion accessory.


"Seeing the jersey first" is great if you're riding with recreational
riders all wearing yellow or orange fluorescent jerseys. For
transportational cycling, which there's a lot of in my area, the riders
aren't typically wearing highly visible clothes like that.

The key to getting more people out on bicycles is to promote equipment
that allows them to ride to work or school in normal clothes, and
provide routes that make the ride practical.


Amen! Many people do not understand this and that includes a lot here in
the NG.


If you've been to Palo Alto, the cross-town bicycle boulevard is
probably about the most usable infrastructure I've seen, and there is no
bicycle lane.



A bicycle boulevard without a bicycle lane? What is a bicycle boulevard
then?

scratching head


... It continues through Mountain View. We are working on a
bicycle boulevard system for Cupertino, and in the last election, the
two winners were both in favor of this, while the other three serious
candidates had no interest in bicycle infrastructure at all.


Those three others are unfortunately typical, sounds like our village :-(


I have been trying to get a bicycle light giveaway going, even though
most riders could afford lights they don't get them. Especially bad is
students riding to school in the early morning when it's dark.



Won't help much. I dread going through Davis with my car but sometimes
had to because of carrying a heavy load. At night cyclists dart around
willy-nilly. Traffic rules? Red lights? Phhht, that ain't meanin'
nuthin'. Many have rear lights and they are mostly either off or are
very dim and have depleted alkalines in them that have been leaking for
weeks.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
 




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