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Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries



 
 
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  #81  
Old February 11th 18, 03:45 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
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Posts: 5,507
Default Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries

On 2018-02-10 16:22, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/10/2018 3:54 PM, Joerg wrote:

On roads and also in towns where people tend to not pay enough
attention to cyclists I ride with full lumens, day or night...
I would not ride one mile in traffic without those.


We know. "Danger! Danger!"


This is a classic example of you falsifying quotes. I wrote, quote "I
have installed diffusor lenses so people won't be blinded. I would not
ride one mile in traffic without those".

Out of courtesy to _others_ and not me.

Ever heard of brackets and dots to do a legit snip? And even then you'd
have been at tabloid quality.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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  #82  
Old February 11th 18, 03:55 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
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Posts: 5,507
Default Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries

On 2018-02-10 18:25, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 10 Feb 2018 19:25:57 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/10/2018 4:03 PM, Joerg wrote:

Everyone installing a high-powered LED light on a bicycle, front or
rear, should walk towards their lit bike during daylight and then again
at night. If the light is annoying, do something about it.


I agree with this.

But I'd add, before buying high powered LED lights, check out any more
ordinary lights you have in a similar way. Have a friend ride your bike
as you observe. I've done this many times with friends.

Contrary to current myths, you do not need super-powerful lights to be
plenty visible. Any headlight that shows the road sufficiently will be
perfectly visible to motorists, and taillights need far, far less power
to make you safe.



I had plenty of opportunity to compare StVZO tail lights versus the over
there "illegal" lights such as PDW DangerZone or Radbot. HUGE difference
in visibility. This was as a motorist in Germany. Since I am also a
cyclist I paid particular attention to bicycle equipment because I
wanted to know. I also wanted to see if the purchase of some lights from
there would make sense since those wouldn't need electronics up front to
connect to the 8.4VDC power bus on my bicycles. My conclusion was that
it does not.


I've read the comments about blindingly bright bicycle lights and
always wondered about it. Basically, sitting on my bike my eye line is
higher then the driver of a Toyota - ...



Unless you are sitting in an americanized Toyota Tundra with extra big
tires :-)


... I've checked this a number of
times - thus a light that was blinding to me, sitting on my bike, must
certainly be blinding to a guy driving a Toyota.... which doesn't seem
like a good thing to do, at least blinding the other driver seems
counterproductive to being seen.

What I've always done with bar mounted lights was to set the light
horizontal which puts the beam at almost exactly the same height as
the stop light lenses on my example Toyota Taxi.

So far, at least, I've had no indication that auto drivers didn't see
me, or see me in a timely manner.


The trick is, when you walk towards your bicycle, move a bit towards the
squatting position, just enough to get to the typical seat height of a
sports car like a Mazda Miata. If it doesn't blind then, you are ok.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #83  
Old February 11th 18, 03:59 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
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Posts: 8,323
Default Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries

On 2/8/2018 12:08 PM, Joerg wrote:

Ye olde 2.4W + 0.6W with a dynamo? When riding at a good clip, meaning
north of 15mph, those never lasted much longer than a month for me. Even
if they didn't blow their filament right away the bulbs turned black
inside and became dimmer than they were already to begin with. When I
was a teenager I started equipping my bikes with what the automotive
industry already understood over 100 years ago, brighter lights, a
battery and charging system. Soon the German police wanted to give me a
ticket for "non-standard" lighting. Luckily by that time I was a Dutch
resident and they had to let me go.


LOL, in the U.S. I think the police are so thrilled that a cyclist has a
light at all that the last thing they worry about is if it's as bright
as a vehicle light. However, a couple of months ago my son was home from
college and driving my car and he got pulled over. I had replaced my
7443 incandescent brake light bulbs with these
https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/tail-brake-turn/7443-led-bulb-w-brake-flasher-dual-function-1-high-power-led-wedge-retrofit-car/925/
which flash prior to going solid. They were not illegal so he didn't get
a ticket. I don't know what the real reason they pulled him over was.

Those 2.4W bulbs were a joke. My bikes (after my teenage years) always
had better lighting than that. Now it's all LED on my bikes but the real
stuff with more than 500 lumens.


I recall that the lights back then came with a clip to hold a spare
bulb. Then people began coming out with home-brew protection circuits.
  #84  
Old February 11th 18, 04:09 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
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Posts: 5,507
Default Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries

On 2018-02-10 16:57, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/10/2018 3:27 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-08 16:50, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Then I realized my bottom bracket dynamo had snapped on because of
the jolt.
It was a near-perfect test of dynamo drag. Riding with it on cost me
one mile
per hour. Big deal!


If you are willing to give up 1mph this easy, fine. I am not and I
have found a much better solution.


Joerg, your arguments are monuments to inconsistency.

You've rhapsodized about stopping to smell the flowers, stopping to pet
the dogs and horses, taking time to find a nail and rock for a
Flinstone-style chain repair instead of using a chain tool... Yet now,
being slowed one mile per hour is somehow critical??


In the valley, yes. As you should have figured out by now riding along
major thoroughfares, even if they have bike lanes, is no fun at all for
me. I want to get that behind me and the faster the better. Vrooom,
vrooom, Diesel stench, yuck. Horses, dogs and so on are not to be met
there. They are met on singletrack here in the hills and on MUP in the
valley. Even on the long MUP along the American River I am sometimes in
a hurry when on an errand run.

To sum it up: _I_ want to be the decision maker on how fast the journey
goes, not some poorly engineered piece of equipment.


So is that the only place you ride?? You give the impression of
oh-so-gnarly
riding. Once again, your song changes wildly depending on your argument.


If you had followed more carefully you'd have know that there are two
places I ride a lot: Here in the hills and then down in the Sacramento
Valley. As I wrote many times that valley is huge and very flat.
Nearly all errand rides have to head in that direction because that's
where nearly all stores are.


Yes, and you've given photos and videos of hilly off-road trails, and
said that your mountain bike has to be super-rugged to survive them, so
you've reinforced racks, built stout battery boxes, choose heavy tires
etc. because weight doesn't matter to you.


Weight indeed does not matter, sturdiness is all that counts for me. So
I have modified the MTB and to some extent the road bike (some of our
roads wouldn't be considered roads in the east).

On the MTB I do not care much if a ride on singletrack takes 15 minutes
longer. As happened on Wednesday where I spent 15mins with a horse and
then 5mins with another down the trail. Also watched a hawk who did fun
aerobatics which is a rare sight. I looked at the time at a particular
point where I'd normally barrel through at 1320h and it was already
1335h. So what?

When I use the road bike and have to be at a meeting at a particular
time that is obviously different.


Perhaps you'd make more sense if you took notes on what you've already
posted, then reviewed them before the next time you post.

Perhaps.


No, it would make more sense if you paid more attention to detail. Some
of us are not restricted to same old same old when it comes to riding.
Some of us have a road bike _and_ an MTB, and they use both kinds of
routes. The riding is _very_ different and so is the terrain turf. You
might also try to grasp the difference between utility rides and fun rides.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #85  
Old February 11th 18, 04:19 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
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Posts: 5,507
Default Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries

On 2018-02-11 07:59, sms wrote:
On 2/8/2018 12:08 PM, Joerg wrote:

Ye olde 2.4W + 0.6W with a dynamo? When riding at a good clip, meaning
north of 15mph, those never lasted much longer than a month for me.
Even if they didn't blow their filament right away the bulbs turned
black inside and became dimmer than they were already to begin with.
When I was a teenager I started equipping my bikes with what the
automotive industry already understood over 100 years ago, brighter
lights, a battery and charging system. Soon the German police wanted
to give me a ticket for "non-standard" lighting. Luckily by that time
I was a Dutch resident and they had to let me go.


LOL, in the U.S. I think the police are so thrilled that a cyclist has a
light at all that the last thing they worry about is if it's as bright
as a vehicle light. ...



Though I am waiting until I get stopped because from a distance one of
my rear lights (there are two) looks like the flashing lights on a
police cruiser or fire engine.


... However, a couple of months ago my son was home from
college and driving my car and he got pulled over. I had replaced my
7443 incandescent brake light bulbs with these
https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/tail-brake-turn/7443-led-bulb-w-brake-flasher-dual-function-1-high-power-led-wedge-retrofit-car/925/
which flash prior to going solid. They were not illegal so he didn't get
a ticket. I don't know what the real reason they pulled him over was.

Those 2.4W bulbs were a joke. My bikes (after my teenage years) always
had better lighting than that. Now it's all LED on my bikes but the
real stuff with more than 500 lumens.


I recall that the lights back then came with a clip to hold a spare
bulb.



The ones I knew didn't but many riders had spare bulbs wadded in tissue
stuffed into the empty space of the shell. Both 2.4W and 0.6W because
when the front blew at high speed the rear was usually gone a second later.


Then people began coming out with home-brew protection circuits.



Or in my case real electrical systems such as cars had them for decades.
Though I was surprised how few cyclists do this and that still holds
true today. Most just have blinkers with some tiny AAA cells in there.
The designers of those things usually weren't even smart enough to
integrate a low-battery warning so I often see riders where the rear
light has fizzled to the power of a glowing cigarette tip.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #86  
Old February 11th 18, 04:25 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,323
Default Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries

On 2/8/2018 4:25 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-08 16:01, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Thursday, February 8, 2018 at 4:14:47 PM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-08 12:20, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/8/2018 2:08 PM, Joerg wrote:


Those 2.4W bulbs were a joke. My bikes (after my teenage
years) always had better lighting than that. Now it's all
LED on my bikes but the real stuff with more than 500 lumens.


For years with a Margil cover or, after a Krygowski mod with O ring,
and
without a switch (always on) I have no complaints about function or
longevity. YMMV.


How much does that O-ring reduce the drag? In the old days (with a real
power bus on the bike) I often rode the first miles with the dynamo off
because of the drag. I only put it back to the wheel when the "steam
gauge needle" (remember those?) got too close to the red range.


First, the terrors of dyno drag are mostly a myth. This article deals
with it:
http://www.myra-simon.com/bike/dynotest.html
"the slowing down has more to do with psychology than the actual power
required
to turn it."
and
"All of the generators were easier to turn than riding up a 1 in 300
slope.
Another way of putting that is a rise of 18 feet per mile; and there's
quite a
cluster of sidewall and hub-driven models around the 1/500 line, or 10
ft per
mile."


Well, take another look at your link. I routinely ride at 30km/h at
which bottle dynamos waste 15W or more. That is nothing to sneeze at.


I find it odd that a guy routinely tells us weight doesn't matter to
him, but is
afraid of dyno drag equivalent to riding a 1 in 300 slope.


Hint: In the flatlands and with a nice high tire pressure weight doesn't
make much of a difference. In hilly terrain it's tougher to get uphill
but you win most of that back going back down on the other side. The
only time I feel weight is when I buy something at the brew supply place
or hardware store in the valley and then have to schlepp it up 1300ft.


Regarding the O-ring solution - that is, cutting a groove in the dyno
drive
wheel, snapping in a suitable O-ring and running that on the rim sidewall
instead of the tire - it makes the dyno almost silent. That should
greatly
reduce your psychological stress, Joerg, but it probably reduces the
drag a bit,
too. The deformation and scrubbing of the contact patch between the
tire and
the dyno's roller is responsible for a significant portion of dyno
drag. I think
the O-ring has a lot less scrubbing and a lot less hysteresis loss.


Yeah, I should give that a try. Still got a dynamo on the road bike from
the days when I had NiCd batteries which didn't have the capacity of
Li-Ion. Only issue is, it's a Soubitez dynamo where the wheel is not
removable. I'd have to figure a way to grab it at its outside diameter
with a hose or something and then drive that hose with a power drill at
a speed the dynamo can stomach for a while, then hold the corner of a
file to it.

Also, my last front Gatorskin is still on there and those have
paper-thin sidewalls. I'd have to mount another tire.


The drag on bottle dynamos and roller dynamos is significant, though I
have only owned Sanyo roller and Union bottle, not the high-end German
bottle dynamos. For the hub dynamos it's hard to quantify the
difference. I rode my Dahon yesterday which has an SP hub dynamo
(rebranded as "Joule") but it'd be hard, without special equipment, to
run it with the original wheel, and measure the difference. I have a
high-end LED light on the Dahon, but like most StVZO compliant,
European, LED lights there is no DRL flasher. My back-up dynamo light on
my commute bike has a DRL flasher, but it's too weak to use by itself.
Have to look at this one:
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/us/en/exposure-revo-dynamo-light-only/rp-prod110884.

You're absolutely right regarding waste of excess power, and there's no
reason for this with a better design. A dynamo charging a 2P Li-Ion
power pack with a buck switcher would solve this problem, at least until
the batteries are fully charged, but then you could choose to disconnect
the dynamo from the load.
  #87  
Old February 11th 18, 04:29 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,323
Default Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries

On 2/11/2018 4:32 AM, wrote:
On Sunday, February 11, 2018 at 2:57:31 AM UTC+1, sms wrote:
On 2/10/2018 12:01 AM,
wrote:
On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 10:35:27 PM UTC+1, sms wrote:
On 2/8/2018 12:21 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-06 20:48, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 6 Feb 2018 10:52:50 -0800, sms
wrote:


[...]


It's a 2 cell 18650 pack with the batteries in parallel, and a
protection circuit board shared between the two cells. The cells are
allegedly 2800mAH, for a total of 5600mAH.

Seems rather high.


Probably a Chinese spec :-)

Just like with lights where there are lumens and then there are Chilumens.


**************** ... Note that batteries are tested at a 0.2C
discharge, which yields larger numbers than the usual headlight
discharge rate.* The Lezyne Deca 1500XXL claims 1500 lumens, which
also seems a bit high.* Assuming 120 lumens/watt at a nominal
3.7V/battery, that's:
*** 1500 / 120 / 3.7 = 3.4A
to run the headlight at full brightness, or 1.7A per cell.
Meanwhile, the cell capacity is tested at:
*** 0.2 * 2800 = 0.56A


Classic American answer: Then you need a bigger battery. On my road bike
I use eight 18650 cells, four in parallel and two of those packs in
series so the current on the cable to the front light doesn't exceed 1A,
at least not by much.

I decided to do run-time tests on my two Lezyne Decadrive 1500xxl lights.

I think that I have never before experienced a light manufacturer that
significantly under-stated run times.

Running both in "Overdrive Race Mode" the run time was much higher than
the manual stated. mtbr.com measured "Overdrive Race Mode" at 1390
lumens, a little less than the claimed 1500 lumens. The manual says 100
minutes in "Overdrive Race Mode."

On the light with the new 5200mAH battery back, one test gave 157
minutes, one 162 minutes.

On the light with the old 5600mAH battery pack, one test gave 193
minutes, one test gave 216 minutes.

I did not run the battery all the way down. When the "10% remaining"
indicator occurred I stopped the test.

I am going to do a third test as well, as soon as the batteries are
recharged.

Did you also measured the light output over time? Otherwise the numbers mean nothing to me.


The entire test was at maximum power and the lights never dimmed. The
light does not automatically reduce output based on remaining battery
capacity, and it's not as smart as a smart phone which tracks battery
performance over time and then throttles back. It might reduce power if
it overheats but it has an excellent thermal solution of finned
aluminum--it does not use a plastic enclosure.


So the light has the same light output at 10% battery capacity as it has at 100% battery capacity. That is not my experience (I did the same test). You must have magic batteries and/or light over there.


Remember the "10%" indication is almost certainly NOT 10% battery
capacity remaining. It's what the light manufacturer decided to bring
the batteries down to before shutting down. The remaining capacity is
more. It's the same as what electric vehicle manufacturers do in order
to prolong battery life, they don't charge to the maximum and they don't
discharge to the minimum.
  #88  
Old February 11th 18, 04:34 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,323
Default Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries

On 2/11/2018 7:45 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-10 16:22, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/10/2018 3:54 PM, Joerg wrote:

On roads and also in towns where people tend to not pay enough
attention to cyclists I ride with full lumens, day or night...
I would not ride one mile in traffic without those.


We know.* "Danger! Danger!"


This is a classic example of you falsifying quotes. I wrote, quote "I
have installed diffusor lenses so people won't be blinded. I would not
ride one mile in traffic without those".

Out of courtesy to _others_ and not me.

Ever heard of brackets and dots to do a legit snip? And even then you'd
have been at tabloid quality.


Every time Frank can't respond to an argument with facts and logic he
resorts to "Danger! Danger!." I am subjected to more and more Frank-like
non-logic lately, and my Usenet experience was good training.
  #89  
Old February 11th 18, 05:28 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,323
Default Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries

On 2/11/2018 8:19 AM, Joerg wrote:

snip

Or in my case real electrical systems such as cars had them for decades.
Though I was surprised how few cyclists do this and that still holds
true today. Most just have blinkers with some tiny AAA cells in there.
The designers of those things usually weren't even smart enough to
integrate a low-battery warning so I often see riders where the rear
light has fizzled to the power of a glowing cigarette tip.


Those AAA cell lights are really annoying.

My favorite tail light is the CatEye TL-LD1100 which uses two AA cells.
It also is one of the few tail lights that still has side-pointing LEDs
as well are rear pointing LEDs.

Still available from Asia.
https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/CATEYE-Bike-Bicycle-6-LED-Rear-Tail-Laser-Light-Bike-Back-Red-Light-Safety-Warning-Flashing/434036_32786881487.html.
  #90  
Old February 11th 18, 06:02 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,507
Default Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries

On 2018-02-11 08:25, sms wrote:
On 2/8/2018 4:25 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-08 16:01, Frank Krygowski wrote:


[...]


I find it odd that a guy routinely tells us weight doesn't matter to
him, but is
afraid of dyno drag equivalent to riding a 1 in 300 slope.


Hint: In the flatlands and with a nice high tire pressure weight
doesn't make much of a difference. In hilly terrain it's tougher to
get uphill but you win most of that back going back down on the other
side. The only time I feel weight is when I buy something at the brew
supply place or hardware store in the valley and then have to schlepp
it up 1300ft.


Regarding the O-ring solution - that is, cutting a groove in the dyno
drive
wheel, snapping in a suitable O-ring and running that on the rim
sidewall
instead of the tire - it makes the dyno almost silent. That should
greatly
reduce your psychological stress, Joerg, but it probably reduces the
drag a bit,
too. The deformation and scrubbing of the contact patch between the
tire and
the dyno's roller is responsible for a significant portion of dyno
drag. I think
the O-ring has a lot less scrubbing and a lot less hysteresis loss.


Yeah, I should give that a try. Still got a dynamo on the road bike
from the days when I had NiCd batteries which didn't have the capacity
of Li-Ion. Only issue is, it's a Soubitez dynamo where the wheel is
not removable. I'd have to figure a way to grab it at its outside
diameter with a hose or something and then drive that hose with a
power drill at a speed the dynamo can stomach for a while, then hold
the corner of a file to it.

Also, my last front Gatorskin is still on there and those have
paper-thin sidewalls. I'd have to mount another tire.


The drag on bottle dynamos and roller dynamos is significant, though I
have only owned Sanyo roller and Union bottle, not the high-end German
bottle dynamos. For the hub dynamos it's hard to quantify the
difference. I rode my Dahon yesterday which has an SP hub dynamo
(rebranded as "Joule") but it'd be hard, without special equipment, to
run it with the original wheel, and measure the difference. I have a
high-end LED light on the Dahon, but like most StVZO compliant,
European, LED lights there is no DRL flasher. My back-up dynamo light on
my commute bike has a DRL flasher, but it's too weak to use by itself.
Have to look at this one:
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/us/en/exposure-revo-dynamo-light-only/rp-prod110884.


Nice but I am not willing to pay $200 just for a front light when I can
buy a fully adequate one for under $20. Swapping the lens is needed but
done in minutes.


You're absolutely right regarding waste of excess power, and there's no
reason for this with a better design. A dynamo charging a 2P Li-Ion
power pack with a buck switcher would solve this problem, at least until
the batteries are fully charged, but then you could choose to disconnect
the dynamo from the load.



That is how I used dynamos in the past and would like to do that again.
However, in the US it is hard to find a reasonably priced complete front
wheel with a hub dynamo and I don't want to spoke up my own. So it'll
have to be a bottle dynamo (rollers went the way of the dinosuars) and
then I'd like to try Frank's mode with an O-ring and run it on the brake
surface nstead of the tire.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
 




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