on Bush and his crashes

Mark Hickey wrote:

(Eagle Jackson) wrote:


Tom Sherman wrote in message ...

It's a lot easier to blame a "conspiracy of the upper classes" and
"being brainwashed by the media" for one's own circumstances than to
accept the personal responsibility for failing to have the sense and
discipline to get a good education, work hard, make personal sacrifice
in order to invest for the future.

In America, the opportunity is there for the taking. Millions of
immigrants come here every year to grab their own slice of the
American dream. (And millions more if we'd let them g) It may not
be easy but for those willing to work hard for it, they can achieve
it.

If you don't like your circumstances and are looking for someone to
blame, look in the mirror.


What he said.

What I said in reply.

--
Tom Sherman – Quad City Area

Tom Sherman wrote:
When over 40% of a person's paycheck goes towards student loan payments,
it is very difficult to save for a home purchase, retirement or some
other purpose - say becoming a LBS owner or small volume bicycle
manufacturer.

whoa .. where'd you get that number from? being generous say $46,000 student
loan (the max for an independent student for their undergrad) over 10 years
(the max) at 6% is $510 a month. for that to be 40% of your take home
paycheck you'd have to be making $15,300/yr after taxes or roughly $19,000/yr
before (given a 15% federal tax + 5% state at this income level) which ain't
middle class in my book. actually if you have two kids and a spouse it's
at the poverty level.
--
david reuteler

David Reuteler wrote:

Tom Sherman wrote:

When over 40% of a person's paycheck goes towards student loan payments,
it is very difficult to save for a home purchase, retirement or some
other purpose - say becoming a LBS owner or small volume bicycle
manufacturer.


whoa .. where'd you get that number from? being generous say $46,000 student
loan (the max for an independent student for their undergrad) over 10 years
(the max) at 6% is $510 a month. for that to be 40% of your take home
paycheck you'd have to be making $15,300/yr after taxes or roughly $19,000/yr
before (given a 15% federal tax + 5% state at this income level) which ain't
middle class in my book. actually if you have two kids and a spouse it's
at the poverty level.

Try older undergraduate GSL/Stafford loans and newer graduate
Direct/Ford loans at a total of $60,000.

--
Tom Sherman – Quad City Area

Tom Sherman wrote:

David Reuteler wrote:

Tom Sherman wrote:

When over 40% of a person's paycheck goes towards student loan payments,
it is very difficult to save for a home purchase, retirement or some
other purpose - say becoming a LBS owner or small volume bicycle
manufacturer.


whoa .. where'd you get that number from? being generous say $46,000 student
loan (the max for an independent student for their undergrad) over 10 years
(the max) at 6% is $510 a month. for that to be 40% of your take home
paycheck you'd have to be making $15,300/yr after taxes or roughly $19,000/yr
before (given a 15% federal tax + 5% state at this income level) which ain't
middle class in my book. actually if you have two kids and a spouse it's
at the poverty level.

Try older undergraduate GSL/Stafford loans and newer graduate
Direct/Ford loans at a total of $60,000.

tom, that still doesn't change my point.

$666 a month for an income of $17,500 a year after taxes .. or about $22,000
before to make payments 40% of your after tax income. brother, if you spent
$60,000 on an education to make $22k you either made the wrong choice or
income wasn't even part of the equation. if it's the latter your complaint
is with your chosen occupation.
--
david reuteler

in article , Mark Hickey at
wrote on 8/9/04 8:37 PM:

Let me sum it up this way. You're wrong. Hard work and ability are
what is needed to get ahead. Doesn't mean that you can go into the
wrong business and do so (say, bicycles...) though... ;-)

So, are you saying that every single American is born with the exact same
opportunities?

Todd Kuzma
Heron Bicycles
Tullio's Big Dog Cyclery
LaSalle, IL
http://www.heronbicycles.com/
http://www.tullios.com/

David Reuteler wrote:

Tom Sherman wrote:

David Reuteler wrote:


Tom Sherman wrote:


When over 40% of a person's paycheck goes towards student loan payments,
it is very difficult to save for a home purchase, retirement or some
other purpose - say becoming a LBS owner or small volume bicycle
manufacturer.


whoa .. where'd you get that number from? being generous say $46,000 student
loan (the max for an independent student for their undergrad) over 10 years
(the max) at 6% is $510 a month. for that to be 40% of your take home
paycheck you'd have to be making $15,300/yr after taxes or roughly $19,000/yr
before (given a 15% federal tax + 5% state at this income level) which ain't
middle class in my book. actually if you have two kids and a spouse it's
at the poverty level.

Try older undergraduate GSL/Stafford loans and newer graduate
Direct/Ford loans at a total of $60,000.


tom, that still doesn't change my point.

$666 a month for an income of $17,500 a year after taxes .. or about $22,000
before to make payments 40% of your after tax income. brother, if you spent
$60,000 on an education to make $22k you either made the wrong choice or
income wasn't even part of the equation. if it's the latter your complaint
is with your chosen occupation.

You are forgetting payroll taxes and possibly the lower deductions for
those with no dependents. Also, the interest rates on the older loan
programs (and unsubsidized loans) are higher. My example was $40,000
gross, $27,000 net, and $850/month in loan payments.

--
Tom Sherman – Quad City Area

Tom Sherman wrote:
You are forgetting payroll taxes and possibly the lower deductions for
those with no dependents. Also, the interest rates on the older loan
programs (and unsubsidized loans) are higher. My example was $40,000
gross, $27,000 net, and $850/month in loan payments.

you're getting screwd .. your interest rate for $60,000 over 10 years is
11.75% -- that's within the realm of credit card debt. mine were around 6%
which was less than the original 8/10% terms (the current stafford is capped
at 8.25% and based on the 91 day t-bill + 2.30%) .. might want to think about
consolidating. unsubsidized loans don't typically have higher interest
rates than subsidized loans you're just responsible for the interest payments
while in school (sure you know that, tho).
--
david reuteler

Tom Sherman wrote in message ...
I don't know your personal circumstances, your chosen job or career,
or how you spend your money -- nor is it any of my business. But it
sounds like you took a lot of loans and then took a job which you're
staying in that doesn't pay very much. It's certainly not the fault
of an "upper class conspiracy" or "brainwashing by the media." That's
just a trap to deflect responsibility.

It sounds more like you could benefit from some career counseling
and/or some financial consulting, and turn your energy from bitterness
against the "system" and towards improving your circumstances in life.

Todd Kuzma wrote:

in article , Mark Hickey at
wrote on 8/9/04 8:37 PM:

Let me sum it up this way. You're wrong. Hard work and ability are
what is needed to get ahead. Doesn't mean that you can go into the
wrong business and do so (say, bicycles...) though... ;-)

So, are you saying that every single American is born with the exact same
opportunities?

Of course not - but every single American is born with a minimum level
of opportunity that (judging by immigration levels) is the envy of the
world.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

Tom Sherman wrote:

Yes, look at the millions murdered in post WW2 Scandinavia and Benelux,
where higher education is free, a minimum income, health care and
housing are guaranteed, workers are protected from the abuses of the
free market, and poverty is practically non-existent. That is why all
the people in those countries can not wait to emigrate to the US. [End
sarcasm].

Wanna tell us all what the tax rates are in Scandanavia and Benelux?

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame