Anyone here built their own wheels?

Originally posted by mfhor:

Just be really careful with hubs. Campag are NOT, NEVER HAVE, AND WILL
NEVER BE (and proud of it too) compatible with Shimano, except by
accident (viz 9-speed wheels).

9 speed Campy and 9 speed Shimano are pretty close to the same spacing.
I've known people with Shimano drivetrains who run Campy wheels, simply
because they prefer them. Using a few Shimano 9 or Campy 10 speed
spacers in the stack gets the sprocket spacing to Shimano spec.

And some non-eyeletted: Ritchey, some Velocity, Ambrosio, Vuelta etc.,
Torricelli in the US are getting a good rap.

Eyelets are good. The only reason not to use them is to make the rim
cheaper to assemble. They make truing the wheel considerably easier, as
they act as a hard bearing surface under the nipple.

Have to disagree with you there. A 16/20/24 spoke setup, or
combination of the above patterns has to be built spot-on to survive.

Dunno what you're disagreeing with. I agree that low spoke count wheels
have to be built well with very high spoke tension. Trouble is, to
sustain the high spoke tension you need heavier rims, so there's no
advantage, except for lower assembly costs. The disadvantages are
considerable. I've seen a number of people with low spoke count wheels
stop riding because of a broken spoke.

BTW - Spoke lube: linseed oil? Yuk. Not enough shear strength under
compression loading. IM(H?)O.

Sounds like garbage to me. Linseed is very useful for oiling spoke
threads and nipple seats. It provides good lubrication while you're
truing the wheel, then sets slightly tacky, to prevent nipples loosening
off if you're slack and don't keep your wheels properly tensioned. It
needs no shear strength at all, especially under compressive loading, as
it's acting as a lubricant.

And even better than that, a bottle of Linseed oil costs a few dollars
from any old arts supply house, and is enough to keep you going all your
life, unlike the magic voodoo spoke prep products that bike shops sell.

Regards,

Suzy



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suzyj wrote:
Originally posted by mfhor:
Just be really careful with hubs. Campag are NOT, NEVER HAVE, AND WILL
NEVER BE (and proud of it too) compatible with Shimano, except by
accident (viz 9-speed wheels).
9 speed Campy and 9 speed Shimano are pretty close to the same spacing.
I've known people with Shimano drivetrains who run Campy wheels, simply
because they prefer them. Using a few Shimano 9 or Campy 10 speed
spacers in the stack gets the sprocket spacing to Shimano spec.
And how do you determine that? Suck it and see? You can waste a lot of
time doing that, unless you've got an up to date copy of Sutherland's
close by, or an easier solution, like getting the right hubs for the
right drivetrain. And why would they prefer them? Coz they didn't want
to stump up for new wheels? Dishing asymmetry is much less in Shimano
hubs. It's a problem to eliminate shifting glitches in drivetrains at
the best of times, and jerry-rigging your own cassette stack with
combinations of 8/9/10-spd is a fairly hit and miss affair. Even the cog
thicknesses are different, and as I said, sometimes the gaps co-incide
closely enough to allow them to work together, but often, over the total
width of a stack, the resulting .2 or .3 mm difference can make the
choice and maintenance of the rest of the drivetrain frustrating.
And some non-eyeletted: Ritchey, some Velocity, Ambrosio, Vuelta etc.,
Torricelli in the US are getting a good rap.
Eyelets are good. The only reason not to use them is to make the rim
cheaper to assemble. They make truing the wheel considerably easier, as
they act as a hard bearing surface under the nipple.
And not all non-eyelets are bad. Thin pressed steel is about as hard as
anodised alloy, as the head of the nipple sees it. As I said, newer,
harder, stronger alloys don't deform or crack at spoke holes like older
alloys you may be familiar with do. Yes, eyelets are good for thin rim
walls, but thin rim walls are prone to cracking at the eyelets anyway.
Have to disagree with you there. A 16/20/24 spoke setup, or
combination of the above patterns has to be built spot-on to survive.
Dunno what you're disagreeing with. I agree that low spoke count wheels
have to be built well with very high spoke tension. Trouble is, to
sustain the high spoke tension you need heavier rims, so there's no
advantage, except for lower assembly costs. The disadvantages are
considerable. I've seen a number of people with low spoke count wheels
stop riding because of a broken spoke.
Not necessarily heavier, but stiffer for a given section of rim arc. The
key is the ability to withstand high tension is superior material
properties (stiffness), and EVEN SPOKE TENSION. Off Centre Rims.
Respaced hub flanges. Better design and quality control of spokes. No
black art. Just materials science.
Fewer spokes do NOT mean lower assembly costs. You have to take time to
incrementally tension LSC (low spoke count ) wheels, rather than in just
2 or 3 goes. If you do lots of riding on LSC wheels, you're asking for
trouble, unless you have a spares vehicle somewhere behind you. They're
not for that. They're for racing and posing, as I said.
What about rotating weight (accelaration), and wind resistance? This is
the whole reason why low spoke count wheels exist. No good for plugging
over potholes, but great for a fast 90km slug into a side/headwind.
BTW - Spoke lube: linseed oil? Yuk. Not enough shear strength under
compression loading. IM(H?)O.
Sounds like garbage to me. Linseed is very useful for oiling spoke
threads and nipple seats. It provides good lubrication while you're
truing the wheel, then sets slightly tacky, to prevent nipples loosening
off if you're slack and don't keep your wheels properly tensioned. It
needs no shear strength at all, especially under compressive loading, as
it's acting as a lubricant.
And even better than that, a bottle of Linseed oil costs a few dollars
from any old arts supply house, and is enough to keep you going all your
life, unlike the magic voodoo spoke prep products that bike shops sell.
Hang on, you're showing your biases. Just because you don't understand
it, doesn't mean it's garbage. Why be rude?
All the last 40 years of lubrication chemistry is voodoo? Wasn't it
you who was praising name brand hubs because their bearings are good -
including, not least importantly, the excellent grease they put in
them nowadays?
If a load is applied to a metal object, pushing it against another, then
friction results if the two metal objects are forced to slide over one
another, yes? This is compression, yes? Shear is the sideways loading on
the liquid membrane between the two. The vegetable oils in Linseed oil
are not very resistant to the shear applied by the nipple head via the
oil to the rim, or the nipple via the oil to the spoke thread, the
membrane breaks down, and metal to metal contact results, leading to
binding (micro-welding) of the two parts.
Linseed oil is full of non-slippy particles that eventually form the
gluey residue. Even this is not a good thread-locker. When the volatile
parts of the oil have evaporated, leaving behind the rest, the glug is
there for life. It makes subsequent truing of the wheel very hit and
miss, especially if it gets hot, as the residue breaks down into a
powdery mess, and there is no more of the slippery fraction of the oil
left. And you can't apply any more lube if you want to retrue later,
'coz the glug has taken up all the capilliary space for the new lube to
get into. I prefer something a bit more reliable, and you can buy
DriLube from the hardware for $2.20 a stick.
You wouldn't have an ancestor called Ned, would you? N. Ludd, esq.?
Not all new stuff is bad. If it were, we'd still be riding screw-on 5
speed 36/40 hole solid axle wheels. With linseed oil as nipple lube.
Regards,
Suzy



Mark "tried and true is good, but intelligently engineered is
better" Horner



--

Originally posted by mfhor:

And how do you determine that? Suck it and see?

Aren't we gunning for a fight? For "has anyone got a wheel" use, like
you get in races when someone punctures, the 0.2mm difference per
sprocket is small enough that the guy riding probably won't notice it's
different.

Otherwise, a quick glance at Sheldon Browns website tells you that the
spacing for Campy 9 is 4.55, whereas that for Shimano 9 is 4.34, so
knocking 0.2mm per spacer off will make a Campy cassette mesh perfectly
on a Shimano derailleur.

Or in simple English, substitute a few 10 speed spacers in the stack.
There's about 1mm play in the upper derailluer pulley anyway, so it will
work nicely.

And not all non-eyelets are bad. Thin pressed steel is about as hard
as anodised alloy, as the head of the nipple sees it. As I said,
newer, harder, stronger alloys don't deform or crack at spoke holes
like older alloys you may be familiar with do. Yes, eyelets are good
for thin rim walls, but thin rim walls are prone to cracking at the
eyelets anyway.

Why _not_ use an eyelet, except for reducing cost? Eyelets spread the
load over a greater section of rim, allowing a thinner rim to be used
with higher spoke tension. That means the rim weighs less, so the wheel
then weighs less.

The key is the ability to withstand high tension is superior material
properties (stiffness), and EVEN SPOKE TENSION. Off Centre Rims.
Respaced hub flanges. Better design and quality control of spokes. No
black art. Just materials science.

I agree 100%. The difference in tension between drive and non-drive
spokes in a 9 or 10 speed wheel is crazy. I reckon we should go back to
seven speed. That was plenty. Even better, my fixed wheel bikes have
perfectly even spoke tension right and left.

All the last 40 years of lubrication chemistry is voodoo?

If I for a moment believed that chemistry went into the stuff that the
LBS sells, both for oiling your chain and for more obscure applications
like oiling spoke threads, then I'd agree. However I'll remain
comfortable in the knowledge that marketing hype is the main ingredient
in pretty much all these things.

Linseed oil works extremely well, is environmentaly friendly, easily
obtainable, and cheap.

You wouldn't have an ancestor called Ned, would you? N. Ludd, esq.?

Not all new stuff is bad. If it were, we'd still be riding screw-
on 5 speed
36/40 hole solid axle wheels. With linseed oil as nipple lube.

Stuff that. Both my nicest bikes are fixed wheel. One even has 32 spokes
in the front and 40 in the rear.

Cheers,

Suzy



--

suzyj wrote in news:T%rEc.86174$HT5.50379
@fe43.usenetserver.com:

Linseed oil works extremely well, is environmentaly friendly, easily
obtainable, and cheap.

Not tried that, but I use chainsaw oil on all the relevant bits of my bike.
Also pretty cheap and you're not paying for marketing hype. Environmentally
friendly? Hmmm... maybe if all the cyclists switched to using chainsaw oil
there'd be a world shortage meaning no more logging of old growth forests
due to gummed up chainsaws ;-)


Graeme

"Shane Stanley" wrote in message
...
In article ,
John Henderson wrote:

Does anyone know of someone with stock of
/The Bicycle Wheel/ (preferably Australian)?

I couldn't find an Australian stockist. Ended up going to amazon.com.

--
Shane Stanley

I picked up my copy at the Tech Bookshop in Swanston St Melbourne.
http://www.techbooks.com.au/ This indicates that it is no longer available,
it may still be worth a call as they may be able to order it in.

Kevin

suzyj wrote:
Originally posted by mfhor:
And how do you determine that? Suck it and see?
Aren't we gunning for a fight? For "has anyone got a wheel" use, like
you get in races when someone punctures, the 0.2mm difference per
sprocket is small enough that the guy riding probably won't notice it's
different.
That's in ideal circumstances. What about cassette stack offset from the
locknut, i.e., where the 11 or 12 tooth cog is relative to where the
derailleur starts its swing? Anyway, when I race/d, it's usually your
own spare wheels you're pulling out of the spares van.
Otherwise, a quick glance at Sheldon Browns website tells you that the
spacing for Campy 9 is 4.55, whereas that for Shimano 9 is 4.34, so
knocking 0.2mm per spacer off will make a Campy cassette mesh perfectly
on a Shimano derailleur.
Yes, but the difference is cumulative all the way up the stack, so what
starts off as .2 mm down the bottom turns into 1 or 2 mm at the top.
Most drivetrains, except old Suntour ones retrofitted with Shimano
jockey wheels (you can have that one for nothing ) won't tolerate the
difference and shift consistently well.
Or in simple English, substitute a few 10 speed spacers in the stack.
There's about 1mm play in the upper derailluer pulley anyway, so it will
work nicely.
From acceptably under ideal conditions (i.e. no mud, rain, lack of lube,
bent derailleur hanger, sticky cables, worn chain/cogs etc.) to very hit
and miss, in my experience. I don't recommend it to anyone starting from
scratch. Get the right hubs for the right drivetrain. You'll save all
these semi-circular arguments.
And not all non-eyelets are bad. Thin pressed steel is about as hard
as anodised alloy, as the head of the nipple sees it. As I said,
newer, harder, stronger alloys don't deform or crack at spoke holes
like older alloys you may be familiar with do. Yes, eyelets are good
for thin rim walls, but thin rim walls are prone to cracking at the
eyelets anyway.
Why _not_ use an eyelet, except for reducing cost? Eyelets spread the
load over a greater section of rim, allowing a thinner rim to be used
with higher spoke tension. That means the rim weighs less, so the wheel
then weighs less.
It's swings and roundabouts. Cost/weight/stiffness tradeoff. The actual
manufacturing process of inserting the eyelets into the rim applies
stress to the spoke hole, especially in heat-treated alloys, possibly
causing stress risers in the material. Eyelets weigh grams, especially
the extended Mavic ones. If it's a midprice rim, the inside double
eyelet (if fitted) will not be stainless steel, and will corrode, and
have the effect of seizing the head of the nipple to the eyelet in
watery circumstances. Yes, you have to put more material in the spoke
bed area, but if you don't eyelets wont stop it cracking. i've seen some
nifty computer stress diagrams of different rims. You'd be surprised as
to which loaded up the best - it wasn't the heaviest ones, or the most
expensive. As Mavic are finding, reducing the rim wall thickness and
using slightly more brittle alloy to get the required stiffness, the
eyelets in the rims are where the cracks start anyway. What is achieved
by the use of eyelets?
The key is the ability to withstand high tension is superior material
properties (stiffness), and EVEN SPOKE TENSION. Off Centre Rims.
Respaced hub flanges. Better design and quality control of spokes. No
black art. Just materials science.
I agree 100%. The difference in tension between drive and non-drive
spokes in a 9 or 10 speed wheel is crazy. I reckon we should go back to
seven speed. That was plenty. Even better, my fixed wheel bikes have
perfectly even spoke tension right and left.
As Desgranges said, there is no need to use a multispeed drivetrain, it
just makes you soft
All the last 40 years of lubrication chemistry is voodoo?
If I for a moment believed that chemistry went into the stuff that the
LBS sells, both for oiling your chain and for more obscure applications
like oiling spoke threads, then I'd agree. However I'll remain
comfortable in the knowledge that marketing hype is the main ingredient
in pretty much all these things.
Linseed oil works extremely well, is environmentaly friendly, easily
obtainable, and cheap.
Sounds like you're just sticking with what you know. Did Uncle Reg swear
blind back in the '60s that linseed oil was the best nipple lube ever?
I'm as leery of marketing hype as the next impoverished wannabe roadie.
But I've tried all the well-reputed spoke lube nostrums, and have come
back to good-quality oil-based chain lube as the thing which gets you
most consistent spoke tension, as measured across several different
spoke/rim combinations. So there.
BTW, I don't wear my wool knicks anymore. I found, through experiment
and and a vague, nagging dissatisfaction, that lycra is just so much
less prickly. I have some very nice wool jerseys. Great for wet weather.
You wouldn't have an ancestor called Ned, would you? N. Ludd, esq.?
Not all new stuff is bad. If it were, we'd still be riding screw-
on 5 speed
36/40 hole solid axle wheels. With linseed oil as nipple lube.
Stuff that. Both my nicest bikes are fixed wheel. One even has 32 spokes
in the front and 40 in the rear.
You ride those to get the groceries and go long distance touring? Or to
make a breakaway into a headwind? My fixedie is great for riding to the
movies on, where I can leave it locked up with no fear of any of the (cheap-
ass) bits of it going missing. BTW, the 'Triplets of Belleville' is one
strange, spaced out film. The slowly bobbing heads of the non-Anquetil
cyclists are a sure indication of lack of oxygen to the brain going on
somewhere there.
Cheers,
Suzy



Handclaps,

MH



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