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Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter



 
 
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  #11  
Old June 18th 19, 05:49 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Default Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter

On 6/18/2019 12:55 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 17 Jun 2019 20:42:18 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Monday, June 17, 2019 at 11:14:20 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/17/2019 12:57 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:

A 22 lb bike and a 190 lb lard-assed rider makes that 2 lb difference only 0.01% difference in weight and the truth is that lifting that weight up the climbs is far overshadowed by the high speed frictional drag of the body. I could more than off-set that difference by riding on the drops downhill and on the flats if it wasn't so uncomfortable to an old broken down body.


I agree. The effect of a couple pounds of weight is tiny.

...

What these numbers tell to me is that the only real advantage of the carbon fiber bikes is that they are more aero and so you can hold a higher speed into a headwind.

I think the same logic applies to the aerodynamics of the bike frame.
Yes, there are bikes that are designed to be more aerodynamic. But the
great bulk of the air drag comes from the rider. It makes no sense to
measure the reduced drag of the frame alone, any more than to compare a
20 pound bike with an 18 pound bike and say "It's 10% lighter, I should
go 10% faster!"

Aero wheels will be a bit faster, but colossally expensive. And I expect
their advantage could be swamped by the effect of wearing a jersey that
flaps a bit because it's a little too loose in the shoulders.


--
- Frank Krygowski


I often wonder just how much of the aero advantages offered by many components actually is when coupled with t he churned up air created by the bicyclist. My guess is that if the bicyclist is NOT pedaling then the aerodynamic benefits of many things might be a bit greater than if pedaling is occurring.

Cheers


See https://dc.uwm.edu/cgi/viewcontent.c...31&context=etd

which says that the rider contributes about 70% of the total drag.

Wasn't Greg LeMond's wining the 1989 TdeF attributed in part to an
aerodynamic helmet?


That was a time trial stage, and it's true that time trials are one
event where every tiny bit of improvement helps.

For ordinary riding? No, most tiny improvements make no noticeable
difference. Even though we all know the near-magic power of red paint.


--
- Frank Krygowski
Ads
  #12  
Old June 18th 19, 06:24 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
Default Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter

On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 9:49:50 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/18/2019 12:55 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 17 Jun 2019 20:42:18 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Monday, June 17, 2019 at 11:14:20 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/17/2019 12:57 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:

A 22 lb bike and a 190 lb lard-assed rider makes that 2 lb difference only 0.01% difference in weight and the truth is that lifting that weight up the climbs is far overshadowed by the high speed frictional drag of the body. I could more than off-set that difference by riding on the drops downhill and on the flats if it wasn't so uncomfortable to an old broken down body.


I agree. The effect of a couple pounds of weight is tiny.

...

What these numbers tell to me is that the only real advantage of the carbon fiber bikes is that they are more aero and so you can hold a higher speed into a headwind.

I think the same logic applies to the aerodynamics of the bike frame.
Yes, there are bikes that are designed to be more aerodynamic. But the
great bulk of the air drag comes from the rider. It makes no sense to
measure the reduced drag of the frame alone, any more than to compare a
20 pound bike with an 18 pound bike and say "It's 10% lighter, I should
go 10% faster!"

Aero wheels will be a bit faster, but colossally expensive. And I expect
their advantage could be swamped by the effect of wearing a jersey that
flaps a bit because it's a little too loose in the shoulders.


--
- Frank Krygowski

I often wonder just how much of the aero advantages offered by many components actually is when coupled with t he churned up air created by the bicyclist. My guess is that if the bicyclist is NOT pedaling then the aerodynamic benefits of many things might be a bit greater than if pedaling is occurring.

Cheers


See https://dc.uwm.edu/cgi/viewcontent.c...31&context=etd

which says that the rider contributes about 70% of the total drag.

Wasn't Greg LeMond's wining the 1989 TdeF attributed in part to an
aerodynamic helmet?


That was a time trial stage, and it's true that time trials are one
event where every tiny bit of improvement helps.

For ordinary riding? No, most tiny improvements make no noticeable
difference. Even though we all know the near-magic power of red paint.


What is a "tiny improvement"? The frame on my Emonda probably weighs less than the Columbus steel forks off my last custom racing bike. Those things were suitable for clubbing baby harp seals or home defense. Weight and stiffness do matter when climbing. If we're talking about aero bits, that's harder call -- except that dopes on aero bars riding in packs can result in a massive worsening of your riding experience. Wearing aero shoe covers may keep your feet warmer on chilly mornings, which might make you faster. It all adds up.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #13  
Old June 18th 19, 08:11 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 824
Default Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter

On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 6:46:59 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:

And if someone's not racing? To me, finishing a "training" ride or a
recreational ride ten seconds earlier is of no value whatsoever. In
fact, if my fenders or handlebar bag make me finish five minutes later,
they're still a net benefit.


Sigh... we know Frank you told us that 100 times.

Lou
  #14  
Old June 18th 19, 10:15 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
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Default Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter

On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 12:46:59 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Snipped
And if someone's not racing? To me, finishing a "training" ride or a
recreational ride ten seconds earlier is of no value whatsoever. In
fact, if my fenders or handlebar bag make me finish five minutes later,
they're still a net benefit.

--
- Frank Krygowski


That's you Frank. However to a lot of riders who enjoy riding fast and pushing their limits a ten seconds difference is quite rewarding.

Cheers
  #15  
Old June 18th 19, 11:01 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Posts: 10,422
Default Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter

On Monday, June 17, 2019 at 5:57:10 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
OK, I just went out and weighed my road bikes again. Just like I would walk out the door with.

Basso Loto - this is the final year of production and used Basso Tubing Concepts tubes instead of Columbus tubes. 22.12 lbs

Time VX - 28 mm tires and aluminum BB lugs and multi-shaped carbon tubes. - 21.9 lbs

Colnago CLX 3.0 - carbon wheels and everything else possible. 20.17 lbs.

Now it seems pretty plain that I could reduce the weight of the Basso to very close to that of the Colnago. But to do so would mean I would have to put carbon wheels on it. And maybe a carbon fork which would put me in a position of having a hybrid carbon/steel bike which seems to kill the idea of having a steel bike in the first place.

The real question is does this weight really make a difference?

A 22 lb bike and a 190 lb lard-assed rider makes that 2 lb difference


On the overall bike + rider weight, that's less than 1% difference. I think it would be hard to perceive a difference. Maybe at a pro-racing level small fractions like 1% on this component or the other, or behavioural choices, mount up, but you'd need quite a few that small to make a perceptible difference.

I did have one change of transmission gruppo that made a radical difference to the time over a ride I then took at least six days a week, when I changed from a manual hub gearbox to an automatic change mechanism on exactly the same hub gearbox on exactly the same sort of bike weighing the same to within ounces. But that's because I'm a masher who used to hang on to gears. You guys with good cadence control will in the same circumstances see a smaller gain than I did because you're already exploiting the rider/transmission interface better than I could then do. Different kind of comparison, but it does illustrate that the margins of possible gain from any change grow smaller with the experience and skill of the cyclist.

Andre Jute
Faster downhill than up
  #16  
Old June 18th 19, 11:42 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
Default Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter

On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 2:15:46 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 12:46:59 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Snipped
And if someone's not racing? To me, finishing a "training" ride or a
recreational ride ten seconds earlier is of no value whatsoever. In
fact, if my fenders or handlebar bag make me finish five minutes later,
they're still a net benefit.

--
- Frank Krygowski


That's you Frank. However to a lot of riders who enjoy riding fast and pushing their limits a ten seconds difference is quite rewarding.



What is the deal with handlebar bags these days -- and beards or goatees on anyone over 55? Its like a Portland meme. I hope Frank doesn't have a beard. It would be too much.

And what goes in a handlebar bag for the usual out and back ride on a sunny day? Slide rule? Shower slippers? I'm going to stop one of those bearded guys and ask him to show me what's in his handlebar bag. It's probably and after-ride kilt or a knit cap. Enquiring minds want to know!

-- Jay Beattie.





  #17  
Old June 18th 19, 11:43 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
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Posts: 547
Default Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter

On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 12:46:55 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 6/18/2019 3:11 AM, wrote:
On Monday, June 17, 2019 at 11:57:10 AM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:
OK, I just went out and weighed my road bikes again. Just like I would walk out the door with.

Basso Loto - this is the final year of production and used Basso Tubing Concepts tubes instead of Columbus tubes. 22.12 lbs

Time VX - 28 mm tires and aluminum BB lugs and multi-shaped carbon tubes. - 21.9 lbs

Colnago CLX 3.0 - carbon wheels and everything else possible. 20.17 lbs.

Now it seems pretty plain that I could reduce the weight of the Basso to very close to that of the Colnago. But to do so would mean I would have to put carbon wheels on it. And maybe a carbon fork which would put me in a position of having a hybrid carbon/steel bike which seems to kill the idea of having a steel bike in the first place.

The real question is does this weight really make a difference?

A 22 lb bike and a 190 lb lard-assed rider makes that 2 lb difference only 0.01% difference in weight



190+22.12=212.12
190+20.17=210.17
Difference = 1.95 lbs
1.95 divided by 212.12 = .009193
Converting to percentage, which means moving the decimal point two places to the right, equals 0.92% if rounding to two decimal points for percentages. A little less than 1%. Yet, you write "0.01%". I will not ask what grades you received in basic math classes during your elementary school education. But it might help your so called argument if you used correct math skills.

Now, does 1% make any difference? In the 2019 Giro d'Italia the final stage was a 17 kilometer time trial. The winning time was 22 minutes, 7 seconds. Second place was 22 minutes, 11 seconds. A difference of 4 seconds. 4 seconds is 0.30% of the winning time. Less than one third of one percent. Or three tenths of one percent.

The winner of the Giro d'Italia 2019 won in 90 hours, 1 minute, 47 seconds total time. Second place was 1 minute, 5 seconds behind. 1 minute, 5 seconds, is 0.02% of the total winning time. Much, much, much less than 1%. Its one fiftieth of one percent.

Does 1% weight difference matter? Maybe that 1% weight difference is equal to one fiftieth of one percent difference in time. Maybe.


When comparing weight (or aero) difference percentages, I don't think
it's realistic to transform them into racing elapsed time percentages,
for at least two reasons.

First, the speed vs. power curve is very non-linear, especially at
racing speeds. It's a cubic function. So producing (say) 2% more power
(or saving 2% of one's power by not having to move a heavier bike) will
not increase one's speed by 2%. The speed benefit will be less.

Second, in any race but a time trial, there is a _lot_ of stuff going on
that will mask the tiny differences we're talking about. Case in point:
I mentioned a club ride last week where I drafted a strong rider and so
finished five minutes or more ahead of everyone other than that strong
rider. The drafting was the benefit. It completely masked the fact that
I was on a 26 pound touring bike with added bags and fenders, 5 cogs in
back, toe clips, friction shifters, etc.

In a road race, there's drafting, choosing lines through corners,
guessing when to jump and when to let go, getting boxed in or not
getting boxed in, avoiding patches of bad pavement, getting enough sleep
the night before, and much much more. I think the effect of any design
feature of the bike is almost always lost in the noise.

And if someone's not racing? To me, finishing a "training" ride or a
recreational ride ten seconds earlier is of no value whatsoever. In
fact, if my fenders or handlebar bag make me finish five minutes later,
they're still a net benefit.


True, but how else would one measure the effect of a lighter weight
bicycle?
--

Cheers,

John B.
  #18  
Old June 19th 19, 12:02 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
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Posts: 547
Default Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter

On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 14:15:44 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 12:46:59 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Snipped
And if someone's not racing? To me, finishing a "training" ride or a
recreational ride ten seconds earlier is of no value whatsoever. In
fact, if my fenders or handlebar bag make me finish five minutes later,
they're still a net benefit.

--
- Frank Krygowski


That's you Frank. However to a lot of riders who enjoy riding fast and pushing their limits a ten seconds difference is quite rewarding.

Cheers


Sure a "reward" in one's imagination. Rather like winning a battle in
League Of Legends.
--

Cheers,

John B.
  #19  
Old June 19th 19, 01:37 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
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Posts: 5,270
Default Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter

On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 6:42:42 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
Sipped
What is the deal with handlebar bags these days... Snipped

And what goes in a handlebar bag for the usual out and back ride on a sunny day? Slide rule? Shower slippers? I'm going to stop one of those bearded guys and ask him to show me what's in his handlebar bag. It's probably and after-ride kilt or a knit cap. Enquiring minds want to know!

-- Jay Beattie.


Hey, I like my handlebar bag. I have it mounted on a cutdown handlebar fitted to a threadless stem that is then mounted to my seatpost.

I can vcarry my repair kit, spare tubes, snacks, spare bottles of water or Powerade and my rain jacket in that bag.

I don't have anyone who can come and get me I need a ride thus I like to be totally self reliant on the road or trails.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/738325...57662865565180

Cheers
  #20  
Old June 19th 19, 02:19 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Radey Shouman
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Default Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter

jbeattie writes:

On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 2:15:46 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 12:46:59 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Snipped
And if someone's not racing? To me, finishing a "training" ride or a
recreational ride ten seconds earlier is of no value whatsoever. In
fact, if my fenders or handlebar bag make me finish five minutes later,
they're still a net benefit.

--
- Frank Krygowski


That's you Frank. However to a lot of riders who enjoy riding fast
and pushing their limits a ten seconds difference is quite
rewarding.



What is the deal with handlebar bags these days -- and beards or
goatees on anyone over 55? Its like a Portland meme. I hope Frank
doesn't have a beard. It would be too much.

And what goes in a handlebar bag for the usual out and back ride on a
sunny day? Slide rule? Shower slippers? I'm going to stop one of
those bearded guys and ask him to show me what's in his handlebar
bag. It's probably and after-ride kilt or a knit cap. Enquiring minds
want to know!


Beard oil. What would you expect?

I rode up almost to Portland last week, for a spot of vacation. The
original Portland, Maine. Lots of hipsters there too.

 




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