#91
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Chain waxing
On 6/11/2018 11:22 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, June 11, 2018 at 7:34:51 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 6/11/2018 6:25 PM, James wrote: On 12/06/18 04:35, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 6/11/2018 1:16 PM, Joerg wrote: On 2018-06-11 09:36, jbeattie wrote:                      ... Plus, for road riding, ordinary rim brakes are fine. As long as it does not rain or hail hard, then they are the pits. Oh, Gawd. I and my club mates don't live in a desert. Everyone in our club has used rim brakes since they started cycling, and all but a very few still do. We've ridden in countless rains, from showers to thunderstorms, countless miles. I've been club safety chairman for decades and I hear about the crashes. I've never heard of one caused by inadequate braking in the rain. Never. Back in the days when Campag rim brakes were pretty ordinary in the dry, my brother was racing in Italy. He recounts a day when they had a descent in the rain and he just could not brake enough coming toward a corner, so he put his arm around another racer's shoulders and called "Campagnolo! Campagnolo!" The other rider understood and braked for both of them enough to ride around the corner. That must be why you have never heard of a crash caused by inadequate braking in the rain. ;-) [These days of course, Campag rim brakes seem to work well enough, wet or dry.] I wonder what brakes the other guy was using. Back in Campy's glory days, I couldn't afford the stuff - or didn't feel I should. Paying off loans and feeding kids was a much higher priority. So I was running mostly SunTour stuff, or similar. At least it shifted better than Campy. My only bike back then was a Raleigh Super Course that I got used from a friend. It came with long reach Weinmann center pulls. Their benefit was that they cleared wide tires and fenders. Their detriment was that they were worse than Campy brakes. The Weinmanns merely suggested to the bike that it might consider stopping. Eventually I had a friend do a repaint, and he and I brazed on cantilever bosses. That's what I've happily used ever since. And I still have the Raleigh. It's the utility bike now. Campy brakes worked fine for me rain or shine, but I was also an early adopter of Mathauser/KoolStop pads. I prefer the additional power and lighter touch of dual pivot, but depending on the era, there were no better brakes. I preferred them to cantis and used NR brakes on my transcon bike. With the standard drop, there was plenty of room for fenders and a 28-32mm tire. -- Jay Beattie. +1 Delta was indeed a design error but, before and after that era, Campagnolo were exemplary among available products. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
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#92
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Chain waxing
On 2018-06-11 18:51, David Scheidt wrote:
Joerg wrote: :On 2018-06-11 11:29, David Scheidt wrote: : Joerg wrote: : :On 2018-06-11 08:39, David Scheidt wrote: : : Joerg wrote: : : : : :Water in DOT boils out. That's what happens in the open systems on motor : : :vehicles. Unfortunately bikes don't have those but if you were truly : : : : What motor vehicle has a brake system open to atmosphere? It ain't : : the fifties, man. They're sealed systems. Have been for decades. : : : : : :What do you think that little hole is for? : : What do you think the diaphragm is for? : : :https://i.stack.imgur.com/lFHT8.jpg : :It separates one air volume from another (from the big one). But air is :air is air. :IOW if air bubbles boil up in a car's brake system they have a chance to :exit the fluid and hiss into the air between the reservoir level and the :diaphragm. On bikes that regions simply isn't there. : That's a cap for a clutch master cylinder, but the principal is the : same. the rubber diaphragm is in contact with the fluid, kepeing the : system sealed. the hole in : the cap lets the air in and out of the air space between the air tight : rubber gasket and the cap. That lets the fluid level flucuate with : temperature or air pressure changes, etc, while still keepoing a : sealed system. Brake systems open to the atmoshpere went out with the : 60s. : : Bikes, by the way, use the same system: : https://www.parktool.com/assets/img/...gure_11-12.jpg : :You will notice that the fluid goes all the way to the diaphragm, there :is no air underneath. Hence the "wet look". You either fill it to a high :level, gently put the diaphragm and cap back on and quickly clean off :the overflow (that's how I do it) or you leave the diaphragm on there :and instead top off at the upper bleed screw. The key is topping off. :In contrast, on a car you are not allowed to top off the reservoir, :there is a min and a max fill level. The level is not allowed to get to :the diaphragm whereas with bikes it's supposed to. Joerg, I've replaced more brake master cylinders on more cars than you have. The diaphragm is wetted. Not on our cars and they are about 20 years old, so not ancient. Or the previous ones I had (ok, one of those was from 1969). You unscrew the cap and there is the reservoir, totally open, with the max level marker well below the rim. There may, or may not[1], be an air space in the reservoir, but it's sealed from atmosphere. The only way air or water gets across the barrier is via diffusion. There are min and max levels, because if the level is too low, the system doesn't work. If it's too high, excess is forced out the cap. Exactly. On a bicycle it can't, you have to do that manually. If ou have air in a bike system, if it can reach the reservoir, it can stay there, as as in a car. I need to burp my bike's brakes about once a year. Else the little air bubbles make it back into the system and the pressure point feels spongy. There is a surprising number of MTB riders who don't seem to do this where the rear brake lever can be pulled almost or all the way to the handlebar. [1] cars can have an air gap, because the brakes arne't required to work upside down, or even right side up after having been upside down, while bike brakes are. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#93
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Chain waxing
On 2018-06-11 19:24, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/11/2018 6:09 PM, Joerg wrote: On 2018-06-11 11:35, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 6/11/2018 1:16 PM, Joerg wrote: On 2018-06-11 09:36, jbeattie wrote: ... Plus, for road riding, ordinary rim brakes are fine. As long as it does not rain or hail hard, then they are the pits. Oh, Gawd. I and my club mates don't live in a desert. Everyone in our club has used rim brakes since they started cycling, and all but a very few still do. We've ridden in countless rains, from showers to thunderstorms, countless miles. I've been club safety chairman for decades and I hear about the crashes. I've never heard of one caused by inadequate braking in the rain. Never. This is a non-issue for almost all road cyclists. It's the current big "you _gotta_ have this!" item for the bike industry, so they can churn bike inventory. But in real life, it's no more necessary than magic daytime blinkies or funny plastic hats or aerodynamic sunglasses. You obviously are not a real all-weather rider. With all-weather I mean including full-bore hail storms, downhill and no shelter until you get to the next tunnel. Neither of us is a "real all-weather rider." You've never ridden at 40 below zero, and neither have I. I have ridden at -5F. It just didn't get any colder than that in Europe. But rain? I've done countless miles in rain. I don't like it and I try to avoid it, but it happens. Two weeks ago I did a solo ride, shooting for about 40 miles, but cut it short about 15 miles from home when amazing storm clouds rolled in. I finished the ride in an extreme downpour, one that caused flooding in the creek running through town. I could have found shelter about five miles after the deluge started, but I just rode on home. Sure one can manage, I did by letting the brakes rub a bit all the time. Which is really healthy for the rims. I did nothing unusual with my brakes. The bike has cantilever brakes with Kool-Stop pads; they worked fine. Unlike you, my braking is not a constant series of "last second" emergencies. On that ride, as on all others, I planned ahead and slowed sufficiently with ease. I probably came to a complete stop only a few times during that ride home. The main concern here is loose dogs running into your path, from ranches and other properties. Sometimes from behind bushes. Then there are wild animals, some of which would easily win first prize for utmost stupidity. They look you in the eyes _while_ running straight into your path. How do you plan ahead for that? Who is your crystal ball manufacturer? Then last year there was this guy in a pickup truck who just gunned the engine to pull a heavy load up into the main road. "Sorry, dude, but usually nobody ever comes". Rim braking is a technology they used in the days of the chuck wagon and that's where it belongs. So we should send all the bikes with caliper brakes to the junkyard? Bull****. They are fair weather bikes. When I saw a stand of poison oak at the last second on Friday I was sure glad I had powerful disc brakes. I still did brush against some and have a slight rash here and there but with weaker brakes that would have been a different story. Horrors! "Only disc brakes can save you from itching!!!" I guess you never had poison oak rash. I had it half a dozen times, sometimes it looked like my lower arms would die off. I've had the rash, Joerg. I won't describe the worst incident, since it involved some quasi-illegal activity; but I've had it from both wrists up over the elbows, and many other places besides. I've never had it from inadequate braking on any bicycle. You're a fashion queen justifying your trendiness with horror stories. I don't care whether you believe it. It happened. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#94
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Chain waxing
On 6/9/2018 8:13 AM, Joerg wrote:
Wax isn't a good lubricant but most good wax oils like mine are a mix of synthetic oil and wax. Has to be mixed up before each application by vigorously shaking the bottle. It's rather amusing that after it was pointed out, by numerous experts, that wax is not a good lubricant, suddenly the narrative changed and now it's "wax mixed with oil." So once you lose the advantage of wax not attracting dirt, dust, etc. by adding in the oil for lubrication, how much of the benefit of the cleanliness of wax is retained? I admit, I never tried the wax/oil mixture, but I have tried pure wax. I have also tried pure oil. I found Sheldon's statement spot-on: ""Downsides of the wax approach include the fact that it is a great deal of trouble, and that wax is probably not as good a lubricant as oil or grease." But it's true that there were no greasy socks, legs, or pants. I don't believe in recreational bicycle chain maintenance. I don't want to remove the chain from the bike for cleaning and lubrication. I don't want to use a toothbrush to individually clean each link. I don't want to drip drops of oil on every link or use a propane torch to melt was on every link. I do want to clean the chain on the bike, and get it clean, inside and out. I do want the lubricant to get onto the pins and rollers and not just be on the outside of the chain. |
#95
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Chain waxing
On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 10:18:45 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-11 19:24, Frank Krygowski wrote: Unlike you, my braking is not a constant series of "last second" emergencies. On that ride, as on all others, I planned ahead and slowed sufficiently with ease. I probably came to a complete stop only a few times during that ride home. The main concern here is loose dogs running into your path, from ranches and other properties. Sometimes from behind bushes. Then there are wild animals, some of which would easily win first prize for utmost stupidity. They look you in the eyes _while_ running straight into your path. How do you plan ahead for that? Who is your crystal ball manufacturer? My first seven years of avid adult cycling were in a small town and the surrounding countryside in the U.S. deep south. That's a place where loose dogs abounded and had as many rights as people; just ask their owners. It was abnormal to do a bike ride and not be chased by at least one dog. On many rides we were chased as often as once per mile. We were chased by packs of as many as 12 dogs. And for extra spice, there were times we defended ourselves from attacking dogs (perhaps by using Halt or throwing rocks) and owners yelled at us "You leave my dog alone!" I know all about dogs chasing bikes. Yet I never recall a panic stop necessitated by a dog. That's more Joergian fantasy. - Frank Krygowski |
#96
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Chain waxing
On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 2:14:03 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
On 6/9/2018 8:13 AM, Joerg wrote: Wax isn't a good lubricant but most good wax oils like mine are a mix of synthetic oil and wax. Has to be mixed up before each application by vigorously shaking the bottle. It's rather amusing that after it was pointed out, by numerous experts, that wax is not a good lubricant, suddenly the narrative changed and now it's "wax mixed with oil." Bull****, as usual. I talked about wax mixed with a bit of oil from my first post on the topic on Usenet. I explained that IME pure wax began squeaking too soon, especially after a rain; and that blending in a small amount of oil fixed that. So once you lose the advantage of wax not attracting dirt, dust, etc. by adding in the oil for lubrication, how much of the benefit of the cleanliness of wax is retained? Nothing on a well-used bike is _perfectly_ clean. But the wax-oil blend is clean enough that, for example, cleaning cogs and chainrings happens no more than once per year, and is done with just a towel wipe. If it's been 50 miles or so since the last wax application, one might get a visible dark grey smudge on a pair of dress khaki pants; but then again, maybe not. If that possibility bothers you, you can backpedal the chain through a rag or paper towel and your khakis will be safe for another 50 miles, at least. If you drop a chain and have to lift it onto the chainring, your fingers will probably have a very light smudge. That dirt won't transfer to other things you touch. In other words, the cleanliness is immeasurably better than any oil lube, unless you're a person who cleans and polishes your chain every ride. I admit, I never tried the wax/oil mixture, but I have tried pure wax. I have also tried pure oil. You should also admit that you refuse to read the links regarding wax-based lube and extended chain life or lower friction. I've posted those links many times, yet you still spread opinion-based inaccuracies. I don't believe in recreational bicycle chain maintenance. I don't want to remove the chain from the bike for cleaning and lubrication. I don't want to use a toothbrush to individually clean each link. I don't want to drip drops of oil on every link or use a propane torch to melt was on every link. I do want to clean the chain on the bike, and get it clean, inside and out. I do want the lubricant to get onto the pins and rollers and not just be on the outside of the chain. Your fantasies about where you think the lubrication goes or doesn't go are irrelevant. What you _should_ want is a chain drive that is efficient and lasts long, with not too much fussing. I've described my wax lube method in detail. Others have described theirs. Overall, it requires far less fussing and gives better results, especially since the need to clean the bike is tremendously reduced. But if you're happy cranking your chain through solvent chambers and anointing it with this month's magic oil, have at it. Just, please, stop telling us that we're not observing what we're observing. - Frank Krygowski |
#97
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Chain waxing
On 2018-06-12 11:13, sms wrote:
On 6/9/2018 8:13 AM, Joerg wrote: Wax isn't a good lubricant but most good wax oils like mine are a mix of synthetic oil and wax. Has to be mixed up before each application by vigorously shaking the bottle. It's rather amusing that after it was pointed out, by numerous experts, that wax is not a good lubricant, suddenly the narrative changed and now it's "wax mixed with oil." I've used this stuff since years. It works. A friend uses wax only and it works well for him but it is a much more tedious process than mine. Also, he only rides on clean asphalt and much of that on bike paths. It takes a very long time for a chain to become dirty on a segragated bike path. So once you lose the advantage of wax not attracting dirt, dust, etc. by adding in the oil for lubrication, how much of the benefit of the cleanliness of wax is retained? I admit, I never tried the wax/oil mixture, but I have tried pure wax. I have also tried pure oil. The mix is nice. After cleaning the chain I dab it on via Q-Tip. By now I figured out how to do 5-6 links in one stroke so it's much faster than in the early days. Chain squeal is immediately gone probably because the oil in there is very runny. At the end I wipe down the chain with Kleenex top and bottom which leaves a bit of a wax sheen. I found it attracts trail dust less than oil-only. I found Sheldon's statement spot-on: ""Downsides of the wax approach include the fact that it is a great deal of trouble, and that wax is probably not as good a lubricant as oil or grease." But it's true that there were no greasy socks, legs, or pants. I wear shorts and no socks, which avoids those problems. I don't believe in recreational bicycle chain maintenance. I don't want to remove the chain from the bike for cleaning and lubrication. I don't want to use a toothbrush to individually clean each link. I don't want to drip drops of oil on every link or use a propane torch to melt was on every link. I wouldn't want to use a propane torch either. Cleaning each link is simpler than it seems when using the sturdier kind of interdental brushes. The curvy kind that Costco sells. Need them anyhow for clean teeth, Afterwards they get rinsed, dried and placed in a plastic box for bike maintenance purposes. I do want to clean the chain on the bike, and get it clean, inside and out. I do want the lubricant to get onto the pins and rollers and not just be on the outside of the chain. The Epic Ride stuff seems to penetrate below the rollers and into the links quickly because the chain noise immediately stops. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#98
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Chain waxing
On 13/06/18 04:33, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 10:18:45 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote: On 2018-06-11 19:24, Frank Krygowski wrote: Unlike you, my braking is not a constant series of "last second" emergencies. On that ride, as on all others, I planned ahead and slowed sufficiently with ease. I probably came to a complete stop only a few times during that ride home. The main concern here is loose dogs running into your path, from ranches and other properties. Sometimes from behind bushes. Then there are wild animals, some of which would easily win first prize for utmost stupidity. They look you in the eyes _while_ running straight into your path. How do you plan ahead for that? Who is your crystal ball manufacturer? My first seven years of avid adult cycling were in a small town and the surrounding countryside in the U.S. deep south. That's a place where loose dogs abounded and had as many rights as people; just ask their owners. It was abnormal to do a bike ride and not be chased by at least one dog. On many rides we were chased as often as once per mile. We were chased by packs of as many as 12 dogs. And for extra spice, there were times we defended ourselves from attacking dogs (perhaps by using Halt or throwing rocks) and owners yelled at us "You leave my dog alone!" I know all about dogs chasing bikes. Yet I never recall a panic stop necessitated by a dog. That's more Joergian fantasy. My wife collided with a dog that suddenly changed direction and ran in front of her on a shared path. She went over the bars. Last week when I left home early in the morning, I had one wallaby cross the road right in front of me while its mate bounded along the road beside me before turning away, and then another took fright at me passing and (thankfully) darted away rather than across the road in front of me - as they are prone to do. My brother was with a bunch where a wallaby tried to go under another rider's bicycle. That didn't end well. A kangaroo was videoed recently bounding into a cyclist on a road near Brisbane, IIRC. A local fellow was taken off his motorcycle recently, by a wallaby that collided with his bike on a corner within 100m of our house. I'm not saying it happens often. Rare actually. But it does happen. I've hit the brakes a few times recently in fear of a wallaby trying to escape in front of me. I take it as a part of the environment in which I live. Your environment is obviously different. -- JS |
#99
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Chain waxing
On 6/12/2018 4:49 PM, James wrote:
On 13/06/18 04:33, Frank Krygowski wrote: On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 10:18:45 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote: On 2018-06-11 19:24, Frank Krygowski wrote: Unlike you, my braking is not a constant series of "last second" emergencies. On that ride, as on all others, I planned ahead and slowed sufficiently with ease. I probably came to a complete stop only a few times during that ride home. The main concern here is loose dogs running into your path, from ranches and other properties. Sometimes from behind bushes. Then there are wild animals, some of which would easily win first prize for utmost stupidity. They look you in the eyes _while_ running straight into your path. How do you plan ahead for that? Who is your crystal ball manufacturer? My first seven years of avid adult cycling were in a small town and the surrounding countryside in the U.S. deep south. That's a place where loose dogs abounded and had as many rights as people; just ask their owners. It was abnormal to do a bike ride and not be chased by at least one dog. On many rides we were chased as often as once per mile. We were chased by packs of as many as 12 dogs. And for extra spice, there were times we defended ourselves from attacking dogs (perhaps by using Halt or throwing rocks) and owners yelled at us "You leave my dog alone!" I know all about dogs chasing bikes. Yet I never recall a panic stop necessitated by a dog. That's more Joergian fantasy. My wife collided with a dog that suddenly changed direction and ran in front of her on a shared path. She went over the bars. Last week when I left home early in the morning, I had one wallaby cross the road right in front of me while its mate bounded along the road beside me before turning away, and then another took fright at me passing and (thankfully) darted away rather than across the road in front of me - as they are prone to do. My brother was with a bunch where a wallaby tried to go under another rider's bicycle. That didn't end well. A kangaroo was videoed recently bounding into a cyclist on a road near Brisbane, IIRC. A local fellow was taken off his motorcycle recently, by a wallaby that collided with his bike on a corner within 100m of our house. I'm not saying it happens often. Rare actually. But it does happen. I've hit the brakes a few times recently in fear of a wallaby trying to escape in front of me. I take it as a part of the environment in which I live. Your environment is obviously different. Although 'bravely fought to second place with a mountain lion' would be a great tombstone, lesser critters wreak their revenge on humans from time to time: http://www.wkow.com/story/38124676/2...in-dane-county -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#100
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Chain waxing
On 6/12/2018 5:49 PM, James wrote:
On 13/06/18 04:33, Frank Krygowski wrote: On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 10:18:45 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote: On 2018-06-11 19:24, Frank Krygowski wrote: Unlike you, my braking is not a constant series of "last second" emergencies. On that ride, as on all others, I planned ahead and slowed sufficiently with ease. I probably came to a complete stop only a few times during that ride home. The main concern here is loose dogs running into your path, from ranches and other properties. Sometimes from behind bushes. Then there are wild animals, some of which would easily win first prize for utmost stupidity. They look you in the eyes _while_ running straight into your path. How do you plan ahead for that? Who is your crystal ball manufacturer? My first seven years of avid adult cycling were in a small town and the surrounding countryside in the U.S. deep south. That's a place where loose dogs abounded and had as many rights as people; just ask their owners. It was abnormal to do a bike ride and not be chased by at least one dog. On many rides we were chased as often as once per mile. We were chased by packs of as many as 12 dogs. And for extra spice, there were times we defended ourselves from attacking dogs (perhaps by using Halt or throwing rocks) and owners yelled at us "You leave my dog alone!" I know all about dogs chasing bikes. Yet I never recall a panic stop necessitated by a dog. That's more Joergian fantasy. My wife collided with a dog that suddenly changed direction and ran in front of her on a shared path.Â* She went over the bars. Last week when I left home early in the morning, I had one wallaby cross the road right in front of me while its mate bounded along the road beside me before turning away, and then another took fright at me passing and (thankfully) darted away rather than across the road in front of me - as they are prone to do. My brother was with a bunch where a wallaby tried to go under another rider's bicycle.Â* That didn't end well.Â* A kangaroo was videoed recently bounding into a cyclist on a road near Brisbane, IIRC.Â* A local fellow was taken off his motorcycle recently, by a wallaby that collided with his bike on a corner within 100m of our house. I'm not saying it happens often.Â* Rare actually.Â* But it does happen. I've hit the brakes a few times recently in fear of a wallaby trying to escape in front of me.Â* I take it as a part of the environment in which I live. Your environment is obviously different. My scariest animal encounter was at over 30 mph on a downhill, when a fawn darted across the road. I did hit the brakes very hard, scary hard in fact. I feel lucky I was able to keep things together. Perhaps ten years ago, on another downhill, a groundhog ran out and ran parallel and right alongside me for some yards before turning back away from my path. Around 30 years ago on a recreational ride with two (then) fast friends, we were riding three abreast (yes, illegal) on a narrow and deserted country road, probably about 20 mph. I was in the middle, within inches of the other two guys. A little dog sprinted out directly in front of me. I jumped the bike and nearly cleared the dog; my rear wheel broke his shoulder, from what I could tell. Those are the really close animal encounters I recall. That's three in over 45 years of avid cycling. Only the fawn required heavy braking, and my cantilever brakes worked fine. The best brakes in the world would have made no difference in the other two cases, if braking were indeed possible. -- - Frank Krygowski |
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