Tips on carbon fiber WSD bikes?

Steve Freides wrote:

You've got a lot of assumptions in your thinking, e.g., wider tires
being a "major determinant of comfy riding." *

That isn't just an assumption; it is observable, measurable fact. If
you think there is any other factor besides bike fit that has as big
an effect on ride comfort as tire size and pressure, you are simply
mistaken.

Pneumatic tires' ride benefits were amply demonstrated as soon as they
came to market in 1890, and the relationship between tire size and
ride comfort has been well understood for over a century.

I agree that the OP shouldn't get hung up on marketing details or
materials, but owning any bike that can't accommodate at least a 28mm
tire is just a stupid thing to do, even if you are a bantamweight.

Chalo

On Jan 3, 11:40*am, Chalo wrote:
Jean wrote:

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

Keep in mind it's available in a compact-crank version only, no triple. If
you need really low gears, the rear derailleur can be changed to a long
cage version and you can install an 11-32, 11-34 or even an 11-36 in the
back.

If the rear derailleur and
freewheel are changed as you indicated to get lower gearing, is the shifting
likely to be "really annoyingly slow" or would it probably be "just a tad
slow, but acceptable"?

If you switch to a fancy MTB derailleur and a fancy MTB cassette, then
it will shift like a fancy MTB-- which is to say at least as well as a
road bike (if perhaps a little noisier in the process).

Chalo

Noisier due to larger jumps between the cogs, for sure. But still
perfectly fine. I'd look at riding style. A large cassette for the
person who invariably just leaves the front mech alone, isn't the
worst solution. That said, the Jamis Eclipse I'm familiar with has a
34-28 low out of the box, which is pretty alpine gearing.

Horse for courses, I run a touring triple with a corncob in the city.
works for me, but so would a compact with a 12-32.

Jay Beattie wrote:

And as far as cost goes, high end steel goes for $2K-
$3K frame alone, which I think is ridiculous, no matter how magical
the Bohemian builder might be. *It's f****** metal fab!

A $3k steel frame is a work of art (good or bad) that is specially
conceived for the user and unique in its details. Just like if you're
buying jewelry or a gun, if you want something unique and handmade
from the best materials, you'll pay a surcharge for the privilege.

A $3k carbon frame is a very expensive plastic waffle from a very
expensive mold.

A $3k aluminum frame, if there is one, is a practical joke.

Chalo

On Jan 3, 11:54*am, Chalo wrote:

I agree that the OP shouldn't get hung up on marketing details or
materials, but owning any bike that can't accommodate at least a 28mm
tire is just a stupid thing to do, even if you are a bantamweight.


Indeed. Even if the OP continues to use 23s, which are fine for her
small mass, there might be a temptation to go on a gravel road ride,
or do a wet brevet with fenders.

On 1/3/2011 1:02 PM, Chalo wrote:
Jay Beattie wrote:

And as far as cost goes, high end steel goes for $2K-
$3K frame alone, which I think is ridiculous, no matter how magical
the Bohemian builder might be. It's f****** metal fab!

If I ever get to the point where I will spend 3k on a frame, it would
probably be a steel lugged custom Marinoni. Not likely soon.

http://www.marinoni.qc.ca/IndexEn.html

A $3k steel frame is a work of art (good or bad) that is specially
conceived for the user and unique in its details. Just like if you're
buying jewelry or a gun, if you want something unique and handmade
from the best materials, you'll pay a surcharge for the privilege.
+1

A $3k carbon frame is a very expensive plastic waffle from a very
expensive mold.

I'm not sure I agree here but I'm not at the level where I would
appreciate the differences in a 3k carbon frame. But I got a complete
bike for $2k that was cheaper than a similar steel bike.

A $3k aluminum frame, if there is one, is a practical joke.
+1

Steve Freides wrote:
You've got a lot of assumptions in your thinking, e.g., wider tires
being a "major determinant of comfy riding."

Chalo wrote:
That isn't just an assumption; it is observable, measurable fact. If
you think there is any other factor besides bike fit that has as big
an effect on ride comfort as tire size and pressure, you are simply
mistaken.

Pneumatic tires' ride benefits were amply demonstrated as soon as they
came to market in 1890, and the relationship between tire size and
ride comfort has been well understood for over a century.

I agree that the OP shouldn't get hung up on marketing details or
materials, but owning any bike that can't accommodate at least a 28mm
tire is just a stupid thing to do, even if you are a bantamweight.

It's not categorically stupid at all.

It's well within the realm of taste which, in humans, varies
wondrously.

My Kestrel 200SC fixie with 22mm tubs and full length steel
mudguards is amazingly comfortable. (for me; maybe not for you)

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Jan 3, 10:28*am, Duane Hébert wrote:
On 1/3/2011 1:02 PM, Chalo wrote:

Jay Beattie wrote:

And as far as cost goes, high end steel goes for $2K-
$3K frame alone, which I think is ridiculous, no matter how magical
the Bohemian builder might be. *It's f****** metal fab!

If I ever get to the point where I will spend 3k on a frame, it would
probably be a steel lugged custom Marinoni. *Not likely soon.

http://www.marinoni.qc.ca/IndexEn.html

A $3k steel frame is a work of art (good or bad) that is specially
conceived for the user and unique in its details. *Just like if you're
buying jewelry or a gun, if you want something unique and handmade
from the best materials, you'll pay a surcharge for the privilege.

+1

A $3k carbon frame is a very expensive plastic waffle from a very
expensive mold.

I'm not sure I agree here but I'm not at the level where I would
appreciate the differences in a 3k carbon frame. *But I got a complete
bike for $2k that was cheaper than a similar steel bike.

A $3k aluminum frame, if there is one, is a practical joke.

+1

Except that it is not true. Tooling and machinery to make proprietary
hydroformed aluminum tubing are not cheap, nor are heat treating ovens/
tanks, TIG torches, etc. No lugs are used, but dynafiling, clean up
and all the other work associated with metal frames applies to
aluminum -- at least to a top-end aluminum frame. Not true of Nashbar
$90 frames, obviously.

The molds for CF are not cheap, assuming molds are used -- and the
materials are expensive and proprietary, including internal lugs, BB
shells, fiber weaves and orientation, etc., etc. Trek is spending
money on design and product development. Calfee and others make
custom CF which does not involve popping out waffles, but even some of
the waffles represent expensive and complicated (and proprietary)
processes.

In contrast, I can buy a box of 525 tubing and braze it up in adult ed
metal shop -- and since I am not like you and do not work in a shop,
that is where I go to fix my steel frames.

BTW,.I saw award winners at the hand-built bicycle show who had built
five or ten frames. File, file, file and make it pretty. God only
knows how long they will last. And yes, the TT maybe longer or
shorter by a couple of mms, and you can call that custom, but not
very. Most people do not need custom bikes -- not with the advent of
seat posts over 210mm and stems in a variety of lengths and rises. I
worked with a frame builder 30 years ago and worked on my own frames
and have a good idea of what it takes. I appreciate the artisan
aspect of the job -- but gawdamighty $4K for a Sachs frame? It's a
damn frame and not piping at a nuke plant. I would rather spend
$2,500 and go to Ashland for two weeks to make my own frame.
http://www.bikeschool.com/classes/fr...frame-building
I love Ashland -- great riding in the Siskiyous.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ajmstudios/4498524566/
http://www.outdoorexposurephoto.com/...ges/16034.html
Stay at my brother-in-laws and still come home with a spare $1K. --
Jay Beattie.

On 1/3/2011 2:09 PM, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Jan 3, 10:28 am, Duane wrote:
On 1/3/2011 1:02 PM, Chalo wrote:

Jay Beattie wrote:

And as far as cost goes, high end steel goes for $2K-
$3K frame alone, which I think is ridiculous, no matter how magical
the Bohemian builder might be. It's f****** metal fab!

If I ever get to the point where I will spend 3k on a frame, it would
probably be a steel lugged custom Marinoni. Not likely soon.

http://www.marinoni.qc.ca/IndexEn.html

A $3k steel frame is a work of art (good or bad) that is specially
conceived for the user and unique in its details. Just like if you're
buying jewelry or a gun, if you want something unique and handmade
from the best materials, you'll pay a surcharge for the privilege.

+1

A $3k carbon frame is a very expensive plastic waffle from a very
expensive mold.

I'm not sure I agree here but I'm not at the level where I would
appreciate the differences in a 3k carbon frame. But I got a complete
bike for $2k that was cheaper than a similar steel bike.

A $3k aluminum frame, if there is one, is a practical joke.

+1

Except that it is not true. Tooling and machinery to make proprietary
hydroformed aluminum tubing are not cheap, nor are heat treating ovens/
tanks, TIG torches, etc. No lugs are used, but dynafiling, clean up
and all the other work associated with metal frames applies to
aluminum -- at least to a top-end aluminum frame. Not true of Nashbar
$90 frames, obviously.

The molds for CF are not cheap, assuming molds are used -- and the
materials are expensive and proprietary, including internal lugs, BB
shells, fiber weaves and orientation, etc., etc. Trek is spending
money on design and product development. Calfee and others make
custom CF which does not involve popping out waffles, but even some of
the waffles represent expensive and complicated (and proprietary)
processes.

In contrast, I can buy a box of 525 tubing and braze it up in adult ed
metal shop -- and since I am not like you and do not work in a shop,
that is where I go to fix my steel frames.


Jay, are you replying to me or to Chalo? I suspect that he works in a
shop but I'm certain that I don't g

On Jan 3, 11:33*am, Duane Hébert wrote:
On 1/3/2011 2:09 PM, Jay Beattie wrote:





On Jan 3, 10:28 am, Duane *wrote:
On 1/3/2011 1:02 PM, Chalo wrote:

Jay Beattie wrote:

And as far as cost goes, high end steel goes for $2K-
$3K frame alone, which I think is ridiculous, no matter how magical
the Bohemian builder might be. *It's f****** metal fab!

If I ever get to the point where I will spend 3k on a frame, it would
probably be a steel lugged custom Marinoni. *Not likely soon.

http://www.marinoni.qc.ca/IndexEn.html

A $3k steel frame is a work of art (good or bad) that is specially
conceived for the user and unique in its details. *Just like if you're
buying jewelry or a gun, if you want something unique and handmade
from the best materials, you'll pay a surcharge for the privilege.

+1

A $3k carbon frame is a very expensive plastic waffle from a very
expensive mold.

I'm not sure I agree here but I'm not at the level where I would
appreciate the differences in a 3k carbon frame. *But I got a complete
bike for *$2k that was cheaper than a similar steel bike.

A $3k aluminum frame, if there is one, is a practical joke.

+1

Except that it is not true. *Tooling and machinery to make proprietary
hydroformed aluminum tubing are not cheap, nor are heat treating ovens/
tanks, TIG torches, etc. *No lugs are used, but dynafiling, clean up
and all the other work associated with metal frames applies to
aluminum -- at least to a top-end aluminum frame. Not true of Nashbar
$90 frames, obviously.

The molds for CF are not cheap, assuming molds are used -- and the
materials are expensive and proprietary, including internal lugs, BB
shells, fiber weaves and orientation, etc., etc. *Trek is spending
money on design and product development. *Calfee and others make
custom CF which does not involve popping out waffles, but even some of
the waffles represent expensive and complicated (and proprietary)
processes.

In contrast, I can buy a box of 525 tubing and braze it up in adult ed
metal shop -- and since I am not like you and do not work in a shop,
that is where I go to fix my steel frames.

Jay, are you replying to me or to Chalo? *I suspect that he works in a
shop but I'm certain that I don't g- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Sorry, yes, Chalo. He can probably pop out a CroMo frame in four
hours. -- Jay Beattie.

Jay Beattie wrote:

Duane Hébert wrote:

Chalo wrote:

A $3k carbon frame is a very expensive plastic waffle from a very
expensive mold.

I'm not sure I agree here but I'm not at the level where I would
appreciate the differences in a 3k carbon frame. *But I got a complete
bike for $2k that was cheaper than a similar steel bike.

A $3k aluminum frame, if there is one, is a practical joke.

+1

Except that it is not true. *Tooling and machinery to make proprietary
hydroformed aluminum tubing are not cheap,

--nor necessary, nor even of any identifiable advantage except for
branding purposes. There's not even a noteworthy artistic payoff,
since the result is just a mass-produced-in-Taiwan/China frame.

No lugs are used, but dynafiling,

As opposed to careful hand filing, just sayin'.

clean up

What clean up? There's no flux, no slag, no corrosive residue on a
freshly welded aluminum frame. If the weld was a little spattery, you
wire brush it. Otherwise it goes straight in the tank for chromate
conversion coating, or if you're cutting corners it goes straight to
the paint booth. You can file the welds for cosmetics, but that's not
rocket surgery.

I have owned a lot of Cannondales since the '80s. I recognize that
those frames are not nearly as crude as what's on the peg at Nashbar
or Walmart-- but they're still not the sort of handmade essentially
Victorian artifact that a lugged steel frame is. A nicely
sophisticated aluminum frame should cost several hundred dollars
rather than a hundred or two. I paid $600 for my 68.5cm C'dale
touring frameset in 1991. It has been more than worth it for me. It
was also a *big* fat margin for C'dale.

Calfee and others make
custom CF which does not involve popping out waffles,

More like papier-mâché with paper towel rolls.

but even some of
the waffles represent expensive and complicated (and proprietary)
processes.

I used to make hand laid fiberglass vacuum-pressure injection molded
electric motor-generator armatures capable of handling 300kW. (Looked
like a straw boater two feet in diameter.) Those were expensive and
complicated compared to a bike frame. In this case, "proprietary"
means we don't actually know how nicely or crudely they are made.
Given how very similar the expensive stuff is to the cheap stuff in
terms of weight and observable properties, I can only think that
"proprietary" ain't all that.

In contrast, I can buy a box of 525 tubing and braze it up in adult ed
metal shop -- and since I am not like you and do not work in a shop,
that is where I go to fix my steel frames.

You're suggesting that because you can knit at home, a handmade
sweater is worth no more than a mass-produced t-shirt? Or are you
suggesting that a plastic bag is better because you can't make one at
home?

BTW,.I saw award winners at the hand-built bicycle show who had built
five or ten frames. *File, file, file and make it pretty. *God only
knows how long they will last. *

That's a relevant question. But those are art shows, and the winning
bikes are art objects. I wouldn't expect much reliable service of
(for instance) the Naked Bikes NAHBS prizewinner that's down the
street at Lance's shop. But it looks cool, and now it's on display at
Lance's shop. It's really good for that purpose.

http://www.mellowjohnnys.com/uploads...oushfloor2.jpg

And yes, the TT maybe longer or
shorter by a couple of mms, and you can call that custom, but not
very. *

The only reason to buy a custom when you can buy approximately the
same thing as a stock item is to have a handmade version with all your
favorite details. That's not enough for me, but then I don't buy much
art of any kind.

My custom frame is so "custom" that even Waterford Precision wouldn't
make it for me. I didn't ask, but I doubt Richard Sachs or Sacha
White would have made me a frame that didn't fit on their jigs,
either.

Chalo