Friction shifting Vs Index

On 28 Sep 2004 01:16:27 GMT, Fx199 wrote:

I have bikes that have both.
Often an index shifter will be vauge or ratchet, whereas with
my friction shifter I can always get it just right.
Might sound crazy but does anyone PREFER friction??

Yes. I like to twiddle it until it sounds right. Hate automatics
in cars too since I want to do the thinking and not the geartrain.
Bill Baka

--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

Subject: Friction shifting Vs Index
From: maxo
Date: 9/28/2004 11:05 AM US

Index is great, I'm especially taken with bikes that have internal hub
gearing and indexing--totally lets you focus on the road.


What bike would that be exactly??

Subject: Friction shifting Vs Index
From: Bill Baka
Date: 9/28/2004 4:06 PM US Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

On 28 Sep 2004 01:16:27 GMT, Fx199 wrote:

I have bikes that have both.
Often an index shifter will be vauge or ratchet, whereas with
my friction shifter I can always get it just right.
Might sound crazy but does anyone PREFER friction??

Yes. I like to twiddle it until it sounds right. Hate automatics
in cars too since I want to do the thinking and not the geartrain.
Bill Baka

what people don't realize is, that you can pretty much memorize the position of
the lever without thinking about it eventually!! I HATE IT when my index
shifter is vague or ratchets.
People want everything dumbed down these days

On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 22:10:18 +0000, Fx199 wrote:


Subject: Friction shifting Vs Index From: maxo
Date: 9/28/2004 11:05 AM US

Index is great, I'm especially taken with bikes that have internal hub
gearing and indexing--totally lets you focus on the road.


What bike would that be exactly??

about 90% of the bikes sold in the world with gearing today :P

Most utility bikes in Europe have Shimano Nexus hubs with 3,4,7, or 8
speeds. There are other brands, like Sachs and Sturmey Archer, and for
the big spenders there's Rohloff, but Shimano dominates. I've put
thousands of miles on one, and must say, they're maintenance-free. Mine
did something like 30,000 miles, and a good portion of that was salty
winter commuting, btw. It's no longer with me, but I don't think I could
have killed the hub in a lifetime.

Most of the bikes in the States with these hubs are sold as "cruisers" or
"comfort" bikes, though there are a few cool and sporty urban bikes with
the Nexus, Van Dessel and Momovelo.com spring to mind. You can even
convert a regular bike to a Nexus system by purchasing a new rear wheel,
though I don't think that's very price effective.

Nexus hubs come in a wide range, I had a 7 spd with a rear roller brake.
The roller brake is weather proof, heavy and uber-reliable. Mine was
paired with a front canti, which was a sensible combo. You can also get a
nexus front hub with a built in generator! It's virtually frictionless and
silent. Yes, it's back to the future time.

here's what a quick google gave me to look at:

http://www.roadbikereview.com/2002,C...3_4226crx.aspx

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/shimano-nexus.html

http://www.australiancyclist.com.au/....php?s=4&a=213

I'll concede that they're heavy, but the weight is hub weight, and not
perimeter wheel weight, so acceleration doesn't feel sluggish.

I can't wait till I can save up enough to build/buy another internal
hubbed bike! I've actually been borrowing my mother's 60's 3sp Japanese
Skyway I recently restored for her, because I love the simplicity of it.
It's make for someone around 5'7" and I'm over 6', but I just ride it like
it's a bmx...people may feel free to stare :P

I can remember the good ole days with Huret Allvit Friction Downtube
Shifters. Yes, I loved, and still do love the Friction Downtube Shifters
on a vintage Italian/French bike. I do remember though almost killing
myself once due to a friction shifter that didn't maintain tension, and
slipped out of gear riding hard out of the saddle.

As far as modern Indexed Shifting goes, there certainly has been mucho
improvements over the years. My two Campy Ergo Equipped bikes shift
flawlessly, quietly/smoothy, This is also additionally complimented by
high quality Wipperman Chains on board.
It is tough to want to go back in time to older systems.

As always, all bike's shifting systems need to be properly
maintained/adjusted for proper reliable performance. Even the best
modern Dura-Ace-Record stuff will fail if not taken care of. Mark

I have bikes that have both.
Often an index shifter will be vauge or ratchet, whereas with
my friction shifter I can always get it just right.
Might sound crazy but does anyone PREFER friction??

I have two road bikes, a "classic" '73 Cinelli that sports almost-all
original equipment (Campy Nuovo Record derailleurs & downtube non-indexed
shifters) as well as a 2002 TREK 5900 with 9-speed Shimano DuraAce. The
Cinelli is used as a rain & special function bike (Special function? I drag
it out for events like "Old Pharts" rides, where a bunch of us 70s-era
racers get together and compare hair loss).

I *hate* riding the Cinelli. The advantages of indexed shifting,
particularly on a hilly ride (which is pretty much all I do), are huge.
Yes, the Cinelli is more quiet (due to the lack of pins & ramps on the
chainrings, a wider chain, no ramps on the freewheel and no float in the
upper pulley wheel on the rear derailleur). But offsetting that is having a
chain that's much more likely to jump out of gear without provocation
(doesn't make noise until it's too late), not being near your brakes when
you shift (so you don't feel as comfortable shifting in a busy situation),
not able to shift while standing, and, finally, having shift quality
dependent upon how *you* feel at a given time.

In the old days, some of us used to think that something went on with our
bikes that caused shifting to deteriorate on a longer ride! At the start of
a ride or race, everyone was shifting nicely, but by the end of the day,
mis-shifts and jumping gears became common. Why? Because your skill level
(at shifting, as well as other things) deteriorates as you get tired and
stressed. But with indexed shifting, that's no longer the case. Your last
shift is as good as your first (sounds like a coffee commercial!).

So, with modern indexed shifting, I'll grant that drivetrains are noisier.
I'll also say that chains don't last as long (partly due to what we require
of them, partly because we simply shift more often now because it's so much
easier). And there are few things cleaner-looking than a bike with downtube
shifters and aero-run brake cables. But none of those things, in my book,
come close to offsetting the positives of indexed shifting.

There was a time, when indexed shifting first came out, that a awful lot of
otherwise-intelligent people felt that people who couldn't master
non-indexed shifting didn't belong on a bike. It was an exclusive club,
open only to those who would sing the praises of wool jerseys, standard
shifting and tubular tires. Some even claimed that Campagnolo did its part
to try and discredit indexed shifting by deliberately sabotaging the
Synchros shifting system (their first, and absolutely dreadful, attempt at
indexed shifting). There is also an active member of this newsgroup who
would have you believe that indexed shifting encourages us to shift more
often than we should (although the ill-effects of doing so have never been
defined, however, I suspect that the extra shifting, with all the mechanics
involved, may be contributing to global warming).

Indexed shifting is a wonderful thing. One of several that have represented
significant progress for the bicycle (the others being dual-pivot brakes,
lighter saddles that are actually comfortable, helmets that don't look like
mushrooms, and high-performance clincher tires... I'll leave out alternative
frame materials for this discussion, and stick to things that most people
would have a hard time debating).

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

"sunshine_buttercup"

wrote in part:

i feel that, with a bit of practice most people are capable of shifting more
quickly and effeciently than an index shifter can shift for them.

That would depend entirely on the index shifter. Can one shift more efficiently
with a decent friction shifter than with a poorly designed, poorly adjusted,
and cheaply built index shifter? Yes but if you define efficient shifting as
that which is fast and reliable then a well-designed, properly adjusted, and
well made index shifter is capable of much more efficient shifts under a wide
range of conditions than any friction shifter ever made regardless of the
expertise of the friction shifting rider.

Regards,
Bob Hunt

Mike, I was out riding my bike today, and thinking about what you wrote, and
I thought of another situation where index shifting is absolutely unmatched.
Say you are climbing a hill, and are about to stand up and pedal. It is
usually appropriate to up-shift about two cogs in order to keep the pedals
from falling out under your feet. With index shifting, this shift can be
accomplished at the same moment. You don't have to do it ahead of time, so
you don't spend any time in the wrong gear.

Fx199 wrote:
I have bikes that have both.
Often an index shifter will be vauge or ratchet, whereas with
my friction shifter I can always get it just right.
Might sound crazy but does anyone PREFER friction??

I much prefer friction.

But at the point I switch from my ancient 6-cog setup to
a new one with 10 narrow-spaced cogs, I'm going to need
indexing just so I can be sure I shifted 1 step and not 2.

But it will totally **** me off if it requires constant
readjustment in the garage to keep it from being misaligned
during rides.

--Blair
"I liked the old, square wheels, too."

"Richard" wrote in message ...
I have indexed shifting with (gasp) downtube shifters.
The best of both worlds.
The cable routing is the same as with friction shifters.
There are not a bunch of moving parts and monkey-motion as with the
'integrated' shifters.
As a result: it's precise, quick, and not prone to failure.
Also cheaper.
And for whatever it's worth (approximately nothing), it's lighter.

I'm in a similar boat. 9s DT shifters, switchable between friction
and indexing. Sometimes I used the one, sometimes I used the
other...it just depends on how I feel that day.

I do think that anyone who has been trying to use DT shifters with,
say, a 9s casette would be well-advised to use the right shifters,
however. I tried 8s with some very nice old SunTour friction shifters
and found it terrible! The reason was that they had to be moved long
distances to effect a shift. The same bike with Shimano DT shifters
felt great. So, these days, I use DA downtube shifters, whatever
brake levers feel good, and--in a pinch--I can run just about any rear
wheel I can get my hands on. If you ride for transportation, that's
something not be sneezed at.